[Blaeh]

Hi
I'm joining the university this fall as an undergrad, and as a fresher (or a soon-to-be fresher, to be more accurate) I'd have to choose the modules soon.
I applied to the IR&Philosophy joint course, but I know that the Scots are being generous to allow their undergrads to take 3 modules for the first two years, so I'm thinking of taking an extra module in a modern language (without majoring it in the honours years).
I was thinking of Arabic, but the language is notorious for its difficulty - I'm completely new to the language or any language even remotely related to it (Hebrew, Persian, etc.), so I guess it'd be a challenge. However, if it's possible to get to an intermediate level (okay-with-straight-conversations level?) I think it'd be worth trying.
The other language I'm thinking of is Russian. Luckily, I do speak some Russian (as I've spent my high school years in a Russian-speaking state) and I expect that I would be able to speak much better Russian after two years if I took Russian, than I'd speak Arabic otherwise.
In short, my questions would be - 1. How difficult is Arabic? 2. How do the qualities of the Arabic/Russian courses compare?
Can anyone give any advice? Any comments are to be welcomed. Thanks in advance!

[Oxy]

1. Hard. 2. Very good.

I didnt the 1st year Russian and I found it insanely hard, not so much the content but the pace of the course. Arabic and Russian are equally hard as a second language especially if you haven't learnt anything related. Seeing as you have done Russian it wouldn't be so hard at all.

I would say Arabic as its particularly applicable to IR for obivous reasons.

[Bella_trixxx]

You won't speak anything near good Arabic after 2 years. My Russian was awful after 2 years, it's the year abroad that made me good!

[Blaeh]

Are two years not enough for most beginners to speak a decent Arabic (or Russian or any other language)? I'm curious because according to Oxy the pace of the course is pretty hardcore and I would expect that the students who successfully follow the coursework would learn a lot in two years.
If 2 years definitely aren't enough I wouldn't risk taking Arabic but if there's a decent chance I'd like to take the challenge...As Oxy mentioned, Arabic would be particularly good for IR students and my interest lies in the Middle Eastern security. Plus just the way the language looks and sounds are very appealing to me.
You guys are really helping me out Is there anyone with experience with the Arabic course?

[Bella_trixxx]

For me in Russian at least, I found at the beginning of my year abroad that I knew a lot of grammar and could conjugate verbs perfectly but could barely string a sentence together, the emphasis is FAR more on grammar etc than on speaking. I don't have any personal experience with the Arabic course, but my flatmate who took a semester says they spent weeks just learning the alphabet, so I doubt it's going to be an intense enough course for you to get really good in 2 years. I mean, you'll have a great basis after two years but you'd definitely need to put the effort in to continue learning afterwards if you want a good standard of Arabic.

[Oxy]

(Original post by Bella_trixxx)
For me in Russian at least, I found at the beginning of my year abroad that I knew a lot of grammar and could conjugate verbs perfectly but could barely string a sentence together, the emphasis is FAR more on grammar etc than on speaking. I don't have any personal experience with the Arabic course, but my flatmate who took a semester says they spent weeks just learning the alphabet, so I doubt it's going to be an intense enough course for you to get really good in 2 years. I mean, you'll have a great basis after two years but you'd definitely need to put the effort in to continue learning afterwards if you want a good standard of Arabic.

This is true, your reading/writing Russian/Arabic will be decent but its the speaking that takes time to perfect. A past girlfriend did IR & Arabic and she loved the Arabic. She found it very difficult but she enjoyed it, she later went on to do a semester abroad to really brush up on the speaking and this is probably the best way.

There are also other ways to do this like watch arabic TV or listen to arabic radio.

I think this is a better foundation then if they got you to start speaking it straight away. In my view, it would be harder to pick up the grammatical side of things later on.

[ALExM2442]

Does anyone know what the semester abroad places are for Russian?

[RibenaRockstar]

(Original post by Oxy)
This is true, your reading/writing Russian/Arabic will be decent but its the speaking that takes time to perfect. A past girlfriend did IR & Arabic and she loved the Arabic. She found it very difficult but she enjoyed it, she later went on to do a semester abroad to really brush up on the speaking and this is probably the best way.

There are also other ways to do this like watch arabic TV or listen to arabic radio.

I think this is a better foundation then if they got you to start speaking it straight away. In my view, it would be harder to pick up the grammatical side of things later on.

This last bit is so true - and it's how MFL is taught now in schools here. (at mine anyway) - pupils are given phrases to use, and then teachers are suprised when they have no idea how to use a verb table.

[Blaeh]

Seems like it'd be hard to pick up an entirely new language. I probably won't prioritize the language to my majors for the honour years so the study abroad programme doesn't apply to me I wanted to hear some successful cases of starting a new language at st andrews in sub-honour years but it doesn't seem there are many. Although I think I know someone (not entirely sure if he had no backgrounds in the language though) who successfully did that with Russian.
Judging from the responses so far it seems that further developing my Russian would be a much more wise thing to do. Can you guys advise me on which module to start with if I opt for Russian? I see that there is RU1005 which is kinda literary stuff and RU2001 which seems to be more of a dry one with the purpose of enhancing the grammar and all (If it is possible at all to take the 2000 level module in the first year). My Russian isn't great but I can do simple conversations. If anyone did IB, it didn't take much effort to get a 7 in Russian B SL but I wouldn't be able to have done the same in a higher level. I do not know what that'd be in an A-level talk...

[squeakysquirrel]

(Original post by Blaeh)
Seems like it'd be hard to pick up an entirely new language. I probably won't prioritize the language to my majors for the honour years so the study abroad programme doesn't apply to me I wanted to hear some successful cases of starting a new language at st andrews in sub-honour years but it doesn't seem there are many. Although I think I know someone (not entirely sure if he had no backgrounds in the language though) who successfully did that with Russian.
Judging from the responses so far it seems that further developing my Russian would be a much more wise thing to do. Can you guys advise me on which module to start with if I opt for Russian? I see that there is RU1005 which is kinda literary stuff and RU2001 which seems to be more of a dry one with the purpose of enhancing the grammar and all (If it is possible at all to take the 2000 level module in the first year). My Russian isn't great but I can do simple conversations. If anyone did IB, it didn't take much effort to get a 7 in Russian B SL but I wouldn't be able to have done the same in a higher level. I do not know what that'd be in an A-level talk...

If it was me I would do Arabic - you will find it far more practical. Did you catch the programme "hidden talent" on channel 4 - worth seeing.

[MJOwen]

(Original post by Blaeh)
Hi
I'm joining the university this fall as an undergrad, and as a fresher (or a soon-to-be fresher, to be more accurate) I'd have to choose the modules soon.
I applied to the IR&Philosophy joint course, but I know that the Scots are being generous to allow their undergrads to take 3 modules for the first two years, so I'm thinking of taking an extra module in a modern language (without majoring it in the honours years).
I was thinking of Arabic, but the language is notorious for its difficulty - I'm completely new to the language or any language even remotely related to it (Hebrew, Persian, etc.), so I guess it'd be a challenge. However, if it's possible to get to an intermediate level (okay-with-straight-conversations level?) I think it'd be worth trying.
The other language I'm thinking of is Russian. Luckily, I do speak some Russian (as I've spent my high school years in a Russian-speaking state) and I expect that I would be able to speak much better Russian after two years if I took Russian, than I'd speak Arabic otherwise.
In short, my questions would be - 1. How difficult is Arabic? 2. How do the qualities of the Arabic/Russian courses compare?
Can anyone give any advice? Any comments are to be welcomed. Thanks in advance!

Arabic and Persian are not related: Arabic is a Semitic language whilst Persian is an Indo-European language. Therefore, Persian would be the easier of the two once you've become accustomed to the script.
However, if you already have a foundation in Russian that would be worth considering as you wouldn't have to go through the process of learning the misleadingly called ' basics ' such as the Cyrillic alphabet and the notoriously difficult cases!
I'm in a similar situation with Cardiff- I have the opportunity to study an additional subject in my first year Right now I'd take German seeing as I've developed basic proficiency this summer after being there so long.

[Blaeh]

(Original post by squeakysquirrel)
If it was me I would do Arabic - you will find it far more practical. Did you catch the programme "hidden talent" on channel 4 - worth seeing.

Are you saying Arabic is more practical than Russian? I am not really from the UK nor have I ever lived in the British Isles so I never watched 'hidden talent' but I see that the content of the programme is pretty much self-explanatory (googled it ). Was there anything about language on the show?

[Blaeh]

(Original post by MJOwen)
Arabic and Persian are not related: Arabic is a Semitic language whilst Persian is an Indo-European language. Therefore, Persian would be the easier of the two once you've become accustomed to the script.

Yeah I probably have just proven my ignorance on the middle eastern languages. Russian wasn't too bad as soon as I became able to read Cyrillic because lots of words overlap with English words. But it's true that the Russian grammar (cases...) almost killed me and it still does to some extent because I have to think about the cases before I speak

[MJOwen]

(Original post by Blaeh)
Yeah I probably have just proven my ignorance on the middle eastern languages. Russian wasn't too bad as soon as I became able to read Cyrillic because lots of words overlap with English words. But it's true that the Russian grammar (cases...) almost killed me and it still does to some extent because I have to think about the cases before I speak

When I made an abortive attempt to learn Russian it was the cases that ultimately turned me away It's a shame really, sometimes I wonder how good I'd be today if I hadn't given up. It's such a wonderful sounding language And to be able to read Chekhov in his own tongue!

[Blaeh]

It'd take a hell lot of an effort to be able to read Chekhov or Turgenev or any other 'renown' Russian literature in the original language. I thought German is no easier than Russian (due to my whiny friend who used to learn German), although it depends on your first language. I mean, German is probably closer to English than Russian is.

[MJOwen]

(Original post by Blaeh)
It'd take a hell lot of an effort to be able to read Chekhov or Turgenev or any other 'renown' Russian literature in the original language. I thought German is no easier than Russian (due to my whiny friend who used to learn German), although it depends on your first language. I mean, German is probably closer to English than Russian is.

German is infinitely easier than Russian! There's an overlap with English in terms of vocabulary, but nothing significant: nowhere near as much as French/Italian, for example. But I'm used to ' difficult ' languages being bilingual ( I speak Welsh and English ) though that didn't help me at all when it came to Russian!
I can manage basic conversations in German thanks to my stay in Germany with my wonderful German friends I'd spent a while learning it before I went but whilst there it just seemed to come together

[squeakysquirrel]

(Original post by Blaeh)
Are you saying Arabic is more practical than Russian? I am not really from the UK nor have I ever lived in the British Isles so I never watched 'hidden talent' but I see that the content of the programme is pretty much self-explanatory (googled it ). Was there anything about language on the show?

Yes - there was one episode where the participant was chosen because he was felt to have a talent for languages - and he learned Arabic to a pretty fluent state in the space of about 5 months. It was quite intense - but he was just an ordinary guy - in fact he was homeless at the start of the programme. As for which language is more useful - I would say Arabic because more countries speak it as a common language and the money is in the middle east. I think Russia is a bit of a basket case, but the language really that we should all be learning is Mandarin/Cantonese - forget which one.

[Oxy]

(Original post by Blaeh)
Are you saying Arabic is more practical than Russian? I am not really from the UK nor have I ever lived in the British Isles so I never watched 'hidden talent' but I see that the content of the programme is pretty much self-explanatory (googled it ). Was there anything about language on the show?

Hello? Syra, Iraq and Afghanistan. Joined with IR, this would be a highly desired combination in government. Im guessing you want to be some kind of diplomat and work at a cushy embassy.

(Original post by squeakysquirrel)
Yes - there was one episode where the participant was chosen because he was felt to have a talent for languages - and he learned Arabic to a pretty fluent state in the space of about 5 months. It was quite intense - but he was just an ordinary guy - in fact he was homeless at the start of the programme. As for which language is more useful - I would say Arabic because more countries speak it as a common language and the money is in the middle east. I think Russia is a bit of a basket case, but the language really that we should all be learning is Mandarin/Cantonese - forget which one.

That would be Mandarin, main language on the main land. Cantonese is only a dialect and primarily spoken in Hong Kong and other southern Chinese provinces.

[Bella_trixxx]

(Original post by ALExM2442)
Does anyone know what the semester abroad places are for Russian?

Moscow, Petersburg, Yaroslavl, Petrozavodsk, Volgograd, Tver. Look at the program website here: http://rlus.co.uk/

[Blaeh]

(Original post by squeakysquirrel)
Yes - there was one episode where the participant was chosen because he was felt to have a talent for languages - and he learned Arabic to a pretty fluent state in the space of about 5 months. It was quite intense - but he was just an ordinary guy - in fact he was homeless at the start of the programme. As for which language is more useful - I would say Arabic because more countries speak it as a common language and the money is in the middle east. I think Russia is a bit of a basket case, but the language really that we should all be learning is Mandarin/Cantonese - forget which one.

If 5 months is enough for an extraordinary guy I guess 2 years would be okay for a hardworking one. Great, these kind of stories make me hopeful because what I really want to study is Arabic and I would do otherwise only because I'm scared I wouldn't learn much in two years.
Yeah the oil money is in the middle east but I'm interested in Arabic because of the security issues in the region (Middle East/North Africa). One more thing I worry about is that I hear there are too many dialects that I wouldn't really be able to communicate with classroom Arabic with any real person.

(Original post by Oxy)
Hello? Syra, Iraq and Afghanistan. Joined with IR, this would be a highly desired combination in government. Im guessing you want to be some kind of diplomat and work at a cushy embassy.

I think you're making a much too hasty judgement on me. Being stuffed with paperwork at a 'cushy' embassy is probably the last thing on my mind for my future, unless I grow to learn that the paperwork actually mean much. I guess if you're locked up in the UK and only occasionally watch BBC there's nothing wrong with the world except in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan but the truth is otherwise. Yes, the situation in Syria or the already ancient Arab-Israeli conflict is overshadowing other problems but there are plenty of human rights issues elsewhere, including in the Russian speaking region. Starting with the lack of democracy in most states, and then there are ethnic clashes in Central Asia/ Eastern Europe. If you watch BBC you would've noticed that about 2 years ago there were serious ethnic issues between Kyrgyz & Uzbeks in the right side of the Uzbek-Kyrgyz border (and the UN did almost nothing helpful). Although not as recently, there had been a horrible genocide against the Muslims in Bosnia and the Eastern Europe is closely related with Russia politically, culturally and linguistically (in general). Plus, Kosovo has gone independent too (not that I'm against it)!
But I think you're correct with that IR-Arabic would be more desirable than IR-Russian. I don't really want to learn Mandarin at the moment because I come from North-East Asia myself and I'm always after the less familiar.