[pol pot noodles]

(Original post by Muscovite)
Unfortunately what probably was a good point has been drowned out in the usual hyperbole about troops - 'herp derp heroes; our boys; disgusting to say a bad word of them etc etc'

well...

I was pointing out the daftness of the logic (that an entire group should be characterised by the actions of a tiny miniscule minority). I clearly phrased it as such, I fail to see how you could misunderstand that.

[cid]

(Original post by pol pot noodles)
I was pointing out the daftness of the logic (that an entire group should be characterised by the actions of a tiny miniscule minority). I clearly phrased it as such, I fail to see how you could misunderstand that.

don't .... don't bother dude, some things are closed so tight the hulk with an adamantium crowbar couldn't get them to open up.

[JohnS17]

(Original post by silent ninja)
Regardless of his colour, not the best way to protest but the soldiers can **** off as far as I'm concerned. They aren't fighting for this country or people's rights, they are fighting for the selfish aims of a few in power. They are enablers with a lack of conscience and misplaced pride. Baby killers is apt, they're killing more civilians than ever.

I find it incredible disgusting that you would tell a troop, as you so elegantly put it "**** off". As far as i'm aware it isn't their decision as to where they are sent.To harbour any form of hatred towards them when they have no control where they are sent is appaling, as they fight in Afgan ect not out of desire but out of duty. Not only that but in times of crisis the public, yourself included would probably look to them to defend the country and safeguard your way of life. As for the point about civillians which is true in a sense but considering they are human and hence make mistake then unless they were negligible or killed civillians deliberately then they cant be held accountable.

[silent ninja]

(Original post by JohnS17)
I find it incredible disgusting that you would tell a troop, as you so elegantly put it "**** off". As far as i'm aware it isn't their decision as to where they are sent.To harbour any form of hatred towards them when they have no control where they are sent is appaling, as they fight in Afgan ect not out of desire but out of duty. Not only that but in times of crisis the public, yourself included would probably look to them to defend the country and safeguard your way of life. As for the point about civillians which is true in a sense but considering they are human and hence make mistake then unless they were negligible or killed civillians deliberately then they cant be held accountable.

It's not their fault it's only duty? Dropping bombs in a war that should never be, on people that haven't done anything....but yes you're innocent because you're "only doing your job." This is basic psychology to make oneself feel better. They're risking their lives for no reason and their pride is misplaced. I have more respect for the conscientious objectors -- soldiers who won't blindly fight someone else's war. How can you fight for something you don't believe in. 'Supporting the troops' is a load of crap to get support for the wars. Everyone knows it.

[Ice Constricter]

(Original post by Vortexbubbles)
G4S like most security companies in major cities just mass hire immigrants (mostly arabs and black people) for minimum wage. The media even declared that 90% of those they had hired cannot even speak english fluently. I think the border patrol should get ahold of those employment records...

Since when was £8.50 an hour minimum wage?

[CherryCherryBoomBoom]

I don't disagree that G4S is quite a shambles (because it is, there's no denying that), but this incident doesn't really have much to do with them as a company. This individual employee is just an abusive idiot. I'm sure every company probably has its few dickhead workers, so why would G4S be any different?

For the record, I work for G4S and pretty much everyone I've worked with there is very friendly, polite and hard working.

[cid]

(Original post by silent ninja)
It's not their fault it's only duty? Dropping bombs in a war that should never be, on people that haven't done anything....but yes you're innocent because you're "only doing your job." This is basic psychology to make oneself feel better. They're risking their lives for no reason and their pride is misplaced. I have more respect for the conscientious objectors -- soldiers who won't blindly fight someone else's war. How can you fight for something you don't believe in. 'Supporting the troops' is a load of crap to get support for the wars. Everyone knows it.

How many bombs do you think royal engineers drop? ... When do we have the time to drop these bombs?

As an former sapper myself, the only time i got to blow anything up was a bridge that had to be taken down after the Taliban blew a hole in it, ... we then went and built a new one in its place, and a nice new base either side of it for the ANA ... i don't recall killing any babies, or dropping any bombs, but hey why let the truth get in the way of a good story eh?

[silent ninja]

(Original post by cid)
How many bombs do you think royal engineers drop? ... When do we have the time to drop these bombs?

As an former sapper myself, the only time i got to blow anything up was a bridge that had to be taken down after the Taliban blew a hole in it, ... we then went and built a new one in its place, and a nice new base either side of it for the ANA ... i don't recall killing any babies, or dropping any bombs, but hey why let the truth get in the way of a good story eh?

You're a cog in the machine. Guilty I'm afraid. There's nothing just about fighting in Afghanistan.

[pol pot noodles]

(Original post by silent ninja)
You're a cog in the machine. Guilty I'm afraid. There's nothing just about fighting in Afghanistan.

Toppling an oppressive tyrannical regime that harbours our enemies sounds pretty just to me. You should really bother checking out the facts behind the war in Afghanistan before having an opinion about it. You're clearly extremely ignorant if you think the Taliban and Al Qaeda 'haven't done anything' to warrant us waging war on them.

[JohnS17]

(Original post by silent ninja)
It's not their fault it's only duty? Dropping bombs in a war that should never be, on people that haven't done anything....but yes you're innocent because you're "only doing your job." This is basic psychology to make oneself feel better. They're risking their lives for no reason and their pride is misplaced. I have more respect for the conscientious objectors -- soldiers who won't blindly fight someone else's war. How can you fight for something you don't believe in. 'Supporting the troops' is a load of crap to get support for the wars. Everyone knows it.

I would like to point out that the armed forces tend not to bomb areas randomly as this would be uneconomic due to the cost of munition but also it would achieve nothing other than inflame more hatred for the west.

Troops have no choice where they're sent they can't turn round to their commander and tell them that they are going to sit this particular war out.

Also civillians being killed is unfortunate but considering it isn't all one sided your analysis on the subject is biased to say the least, the Taliban allowed the Al-Qaeda to operate there, they in turn kill western civillians in order to prevent them killing western civillians we are trying to keep the taliban out of power.

I dislike this idea that a lot of left wing idiots seem to pedal that we are there for oil or other minerals, we are in Afgan to keep a militant organisation out of power to protect Afgan and western civillians.

[B-Man.]

(Original post by JohnS17)
I would like to point out that the armed forces tend not to bomb areas randomly as this would be uneconomic due to the cost of munition but also it would achieve nothing other than inflame more hatred for the west.

You should look up signature drone strikes.

[chrislpp]

(Original post by Michaelj)
Have you been in the forces? Because we all aren't as evil as some may think. And a man murdering a pregnant woman or child won't last long in the forces, he'd be sent to prison. There was a man who shot another soldier with a sniper rifle (allegedly accidently) and he still got prison. I have never known a man to "joke" about killing a civilian, infact I've never met a man whose killed a civilian... Then again I only served the Royal Navy so the biggest threat we've encountered are pirates who **** themselves when they see a warship.

EDIT: I should of added in my original post. The security guard started screaming abuse because the soldier in question asked the security guard if he could conduct a search which the security guard got offended.

So you've never set foot on land in an active frontline troop and instead spend your nights locked up with a bunch of other guys and think yourself a solider.

[B-Man.]

(Original post by chrislpp)
So you've never set foot on land in an active frontline troop and instead spend your nights locked up with a bunch of other guys and think yourself a solider.

[JohnS17]

(Original post by B-Man.)
You should look up signature drone strikes.

I'd like to point out that these americian drone strikes i don't think we operate UCAV to significant degree in Afgan and even then the British Armed Forces tend not to go around bombing random civillians. We don't have the ability to force america to stop bombing people that they target.

[callum9999]

(Original post by Michaelj)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...by-killer.html

Personally I think this is wrong on many levels and what type of people are G4S recruiting? It seems that anybody could just walk in and apply for a job and get it. I amused myself and applied for a job on the offical website, for a job reknown for its unproffesional conduct, they do seem to pay well!

Props for the soldier. In other reports, he remained cool-headed and calmly got the other soldiers to escort the abusing security guard away. (Despite the offensive remarks he got). G4S say they are looking into the matter with "urgency".

Thoughts?

(PS: I'm an ex-serviceman so I'm just as disgusted as the soldiers no doubt were.. It just makes me think of how some of our society perceives them without knowing the person.)


EDIT: I should add that the argument started because the soldier asked if he could search the security guard and the security guard got offended.

I hardly see how G4S could have possibly stopped it... Do you think he walked into the recruitment office shouting about it? Or are you suggesting G4S shouldn't be employing anyone who is, or looks, Asian?

Life would be so much easier if people announced their prejudices on cue, but alas, they do not...

[Lady Maleficent]

(Original post by silent ninja)
It's not their fault it's only duty? Dropping bombs in a war that should never be, on people that haven't done anything....but yes you're innocent because you're "only doing your job." This is basic psychology to make oneself feel better. They're risking their lives for no reason and their pride is misplaced. I have more respect for the conscientious objectors -- soldiers who won't blindly fight someone else's war. How can you fight for something you don't believe in. 'Supporting the troops' is a load of crap to get support for the wars. Everyone knows it.

Yes, every soldier purposefully aims to kill innocent civilians!

You are absolutely naive if you believe that war does not come with civilian casualties. The vast, vast majority of soldiers never kill civilians intentionally.

To call one representative from the Armed Forces a 'baby killer' was a ridiculous piece hyperbole and a false generalisation.

The guy is free to his irrational views, but your implicit attempt to excuse his actions is disgusting.

[Shabalala]

(Original post by silent ninja)
You're a cog in the machine. Guilty I'm afraid. There's nothing just about fighting in Afghanistan.

Right so because the odd NATO soldier (as in 1 or 2) has killed babies on purpose everyone in the army is a baby killer so going by your logic all Muslims are terrorists right? I thought not everyone says "hey don't generalise" in regards to muslims but are perfectly happy to genneralise about soldiers being baby killers. A higher proportion of Muslims will be a terrorist than soldiers in the British army who have killed a baby.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now as for the war being unjust let me present to you some statistics

-When Afghans are asked directly whether or not they support the continued presence of NATO troops - 63% support it (vs. 36% who oppose it).

-When asked when NATO forces should leave Afghanistan only 27% said "Leave now".

-Compare this with 42% for "Only after security restored", 3% for "Remain permanently", and a total of 30% favoring withdrawal sometime over the next few years.

"Which of the following do you think poses the biggest danger in our country?"
-Taliban 58%
-Drug Traffickers 13%
-Local Commanders 7%
-United States 8%
-Current Afghan Government 1%

"Who do you blame the most for the violence that is occurring in the country?"
-Taliban 27%
-Al Qaeda/Foreign Jihadis 22%
-US Forces 12%

If they have to choose between the Taliban and the current government, "Who would you rather have ruling Afghanistan today?"
-Current Government 82%
-Taliban 4%


Now there seems to be a myth that NATO troops are in Afghanistan against the wishes of the people and the statistics above clearly show that the majority of Afghans support the NATO troops and on the whole they despise the Taliban so if the NATO troops hadn't invaded then the Afghans would be ruled by a barbaric group against their wishes. The Taliban reguarly executed women and children for almost nothing for example playing music or playing chess or stealing a loaf of bread. Yes innocent people have been killed in this but it's war and unfortunetley innocent people die but on the whole the NATO troops don't set out to kill civillians and they try their best to prevent it, the Taliban however do activley oppress and target civillians man, women or child.

The Muslims that seem to get all ****ty have never lived in Afghanistan before they haven't been through what the Afghans have and the same goes for ultra left wing liberal westerners yet they seem to think they know what's good for the Afghans and that the Afghans are wrong.

So how about reading into the war before speaking on something you have no clue about.

[tehFrance]

(Original post by Michaelj)
I've never met a man whose killed a civilian... Then again I only served the Royal Navy.

You were in the Navy... your frontline experience (unless you were a Marine which I doubt) is rather limited. Civilians got killed by accident in the opening of Iraq and I know a few whom in the chaos have accidentally shot civilians. They don't brag about it though and were unwilling to talk about the experience but because I knew the guys well, they did tell me something... they were warning of the horrors of war really.

[Michaelj]

(Original post by chrislpp)
So you've never set foot on land in an active frontline troop and instead spend your nights locked up with a bunch of other guys and think yourself a solider.

Did I say once I was a soldier? No. Did I say I was in the armed forces? Yes. It's not like I'm in the MPGS or TA who never see action whose only action they get is training at most.

Perhaps you should look up the definition of a warship and it's involvement in evacuation of civilians such as Libya. (which I was involved)

[Michaelj]

(Original post by callum9999)
I hardly see how G4S could have possibly stopped it... Do you think he walked into the recruitment office shouting about it? Or are you suggesting G4S shouldn't be employing anyone who is, or looks, Asian?

Life would be so much easier if people announced their prejudices on cue, but alas, they do not...

Did I say that Asians shouldn't be recruited? And perhaps they could have prevented it with proper training and better supervision? :/