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M115 - Motion on Equality at the London 2012 Olympic Games

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    'No'. I will not vote for a statement and i really wish that people would learn the difference.

    We have had plenty of debate on what constitutes a motion and a statement and this is a statement which does not require the House to vote on it.

    Withdraw and release as a statement.
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    (Original post by RoryS)
    Well, could you tell me and eff01 how we can make this more motion like? I think this motion is a good one and highlights a key step in equality.

    It's not pointless as such, it serves a purpose, recognising a good step forward for the Olympics in terms of equality.
    A motion is essentially supposed to set the stage for a bill on the relevant subject, an attempt to generate discussion and gauge opinion.

    Given that we cannot force the Olympic committee to do anything, are there any measures you feel could increase female participation in the UK. If not, then your best off going via the MUN.
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    It's a step forward we should support. More team events with men and women participating would be another- mixed hockey is played in many places, you could have swimming and athletics mixed team relays, and mixed teams of Olympian and Paralympian athletes for relays.
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    It's a step forward we should support. More team events with men and women participating would be another- mixed hockey is played in many places, you could have swimming and athletics mixed team relays, and mixed teams of Olympian and Paralympian athletes for relays.
    Would that work for opponent-based sports? I haven't seen mixed hockey, but I'd assume all the men are faster and stronger than all the women meaning from an objective standpoint, you're mandating every team have some crap players. At least if you pit women vs women, or Paralympian vs Paralympian, you can appreciate the sport without going "Wtf how did that slowcoach/weakling get in the team? Oh wait, it's a woman". Similarly for relay events, you want to showcase the best athletes, and putting men and women and paralympians in direct competition just puts all but the olympian men in a bad light.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    A motion is essentially supposed to set the stage for a bill on the relevant subject, an attempt to generate discussion and gauge opinion.

    Given that we cannot force the Olympic committee to do anything, are there any measures you feel could increase female participation in the UK. If not, then your best off going via the MUN.
    I don't think a motion is to set the stage for a bill as such, but it could be used to serve that purpose. Motions highlight key issues and events happening in our country which bring debate about them into the MHoC.

    I'll let the motion writer eff01 answer your question about the measures, but I'm sure their are things to do to make sure that the Olympics are more equal in terms of gender.

    (Original post by barnetlad)
    It's a step forward we should support. More team events with men and women participating would be another- mixed hockey is played in many places, you could have swimming and athletics mixed team relays, and mixed teams of Olympian and Paralympian athletes for relays.
    Thank you for your support. I like your ideas on mixed events - that could definitely be a measure to introduce, as asked by Rakas above.
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    (Original post by tehFrance)
    You state the difference... I don't see it in reality.
    Maybe this image will make things clearer:



    This a huge step in the right direction. It is frankly astonishing that it has taken so long for this to happen. I believe it is important to highlight this historic moment and thus the reason for presenting this motion.

    Of course KSA has a long way to go. But this along with news that Saudi women will be given the right to vote is a huge step in the right direction. I congratulate Saudi Arabia and countries such as Qatar for including women in their Olympic squad and I hope this will continue in the future.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    A motion is essentially supposed to set the stage for a bill on the relevant subject, an attempt to generate discussion and gauge opinion.

    Given that we cannot force the Olympic committee to do anything, are there any measures you feel could increase female participation in the UK. If not, then your best off going via the MUN.
    I disagree, a motions purpose is not purely to set the stage for a bill. One of its purposes is to bring to the attention of this house a significant event that has happened and create debate and discussion regarding it.

    It is important that we acknowledge this significant event and use it as a platform to encourage greater equality for women in those countries. I welcome the Olympic Committee's approval of the wearing of the hijab making it possible for the Saudi female athlete to compete in Judo. I would also like Saudi Arabia to use this as a beginning and encourage women to compete in a wider field of events. I understand the cultural sensitivities regarding the issue in KSA, but there are plenty of 'conservative' sports out there such as archery, equestrian, shooting, where female athletes from these conservative nations should be encouraged to participate in them.
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    (Original post by RoryS)
    I don't think a motion is to set the stage for a bill as such, but it could be used to serve that purpose. Motions highlight key issues and events happening in our country which bring debate about them into the MHoC.

    I'll let the motion writer eff01 answer your question about the measures, but I'm sure their are things to do to make sure that the Olympics are more equal in terms of gender.

    Thank you for your support. I like your ideas on mixed events - that could definitely be a measure to introduce, as asked by Rakas above.
    True but they are supposed to contain a general solution 'this believes that x and xx and suggests that we go about this by doing y', the House then votes and a bill is generally prepared based on the feedback from the motion. This however is just a statement.
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    (Original post by eff01)
    I disagree, a motions purpose is not purely to set the stage for a bill. One of its purposes is to bring to the attention of this house a significant event that has happened and create debate and discussion regarding it.

    It is important that we acknowledge this significant event and use it as a platform to encourage greater equality for women in those countries. I welcome the Olympic Committee's approval of the wearing of the hijab making it possible for the Saudi female athlete to compete in Judo. I would also like Saudi Arabia to use this as a beginning and encourage women to compete in a wider field of events. I understand the cultural sensitivities regarding the issue in KSA, but there are plenty of 'conservative' sports out there such as archery, equestrian, shooting, where female athletes from these conservative nations should be encouraged to participate in them.
    To approach this from a different angle, rather than trying to convince me that this is a motion, tell me why it should not be regarded as a statement.
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    It's a step forward we should support. More team events with men and women participating would be another- mixed hockey is played in many places, you could have swimming and athletics mixed team relays, and mixed teams of Olympian and Paralympian athletes for relays.
    I welcome the support of the honourable member and he raises a very interesting point. We saw just days ago a sixteen year old Chinese athlete smash the male set world record in the 400m individual medley, proving that females can compete on the same level as men. In mixed doubles badminton for example men and women do play together. I would like to see more sports open up where men and women compete with each other. But the purpose of this motion is to acknowledge this significant event and encourage greater equality for women in these countries. I was encouraged by news that in Saudi Arabia, the sporting body was actively looking for and encouraging female athletes to compete in these games and for all the sensitivity in the Kingdom regarding this issue, this step is truly significant.


    Edit:Ye Shiwen was 0.17 seconds faster than Lochte in her final 50m and more than a second off the WR for the 400m medley. Nevertheless an amazing achievement!
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    (Original post by eff01)
    I welcome the support of the honourable member and he raises a very interesting point. We saw just days ago a sixteen year old Chinese athlete smash the male set world record in the 400m individual medley, proving that females can compete on the same level as men. In mixed doubles badminton for example men and women do play together. I would like to see more sports open up where men and women compete with each other. But the purpose of this motion is to acknowledge this significant event and encourage greater equality for women in these countries. I was encouraged by news that in Saudi Arabia, the sporting body was actively looking for and encouraging female athletes to compete in these games and for all the sensitivity in the Kingdom regarding this issue, this step is truly significant.
    Erm, what? She's over 20 seconds slower.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    Tell me, where are the male synchro swimmers?

    Yes, it's good to see every nation have male and female athletes but matters are not yet equal and I'm more excited by Pistorius' participation. The true divide in the Olympics isn't male/female but able-bodied / disabled. These games are a true leap forward in that regard. We can all welcome gender parity when men and women compete in every sport.
    I welcome your support,

    Indeed matters are not yet equal in these countries, but this step taken by nations is incredibly encouraging. The fact that many typically 'conservative' nations have even considered allowing women to participate in these games is very significant and leads the way for more equality for women in these countries- if they can represent your country, why can't they represent you?
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    (Original post by Hopple)
    Erm, what? She's over 20 seconds slower.
    Apologise, I was referring to the fact that she was 0.17 seconds faster than Lochte in her final 50m and more than a second off the WR for the 400m medley. An amazing achievement!
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    (Original post by Hopple)
    Would that work for opponent-based sports? I haven't seen mixed hockey, but I'd assume all the men are faster and stronger than all the women meaning from an objective standpoint, you're mandating every team have some crap players. At least if you pit women vs women, or Paralympian vs Paralympian, you can appreciate the sport without going "Wtf how did that slowcoach/weakling get in the team? Oh wait, it's a woman". Similarly for relay events, you want to showcase the best athletes, and putting men and women and paralympians in direct competition just puts all but the olympian men in a bad light.
    So are you quite happy with the current set up of same sex competition, excluding certain sports such as badminton?
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    (Original post by SciFiRory)
    I don't see how this does anything to help the vast majority of women in many of these countries, beyond giving the regimes that oppress them propaganda to keep them down with anyway...
    I disagree, the fact that these countries have included women in their teams is a hugely significant step. For example due to the lack of female athletes in KSA, the sporting body was actively encouraging women to take part in certain sports. Let's not be naive, change in these countries will take many years to occur, and many of these countries need to encourage democracy first, but this is a significant step and should welcomed and acknowledged by the house.
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    (Original post by eff01)
    Apologise, I was referring to the fact that she was 0.17 seconds faster than Lochte in her final 50m and more than a second off the WR for the 400m medley. An amazing achievement!
    No, you had no idea what you were on about. 0.17 is not 'smashing' anything. If she took part in the men's medley she'd be humiliated, if for whatever reason they gave her a pass to the men's final. You might as well say that because a woman paced herself to go slow then very fast, and a man paced himself to go fast then medium, and it happened that the woman's fast was slightly faster than the man's medium, that that woman is capable of racing the whole distance against men.
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    (Original post by Hopple)
    No, you had no idea what you were on about. 0.17 is not 'smashing' anything. If she took part in the men's medley she'd be humiliated, if for whatever reason they gave her a pass to the men's final. You might as well say that because a woman paced herself to go slow then very fast, and a man paced himself to go fast then medium, and it happened that the woman's fast was slightly faster than the man's medium, that that woman is capable of racing the whole distance against men.
    First of all I completely knew what I was on about, so I'm going ignore that comment which frankly in my opinion is quite rude. Secondly, I was merely engaging in a debate with the member. I personally feel that certain sports such as archery and shooting amongst others men and women should compete with each other as they do in badminton and equestrian. Nevertheless the purpose of this motion is to acknowledge the achievement and encourage further equality for women in these countries.
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    (Original post by eff01)
    First of all I completely knew what I was on about, so I'm going ignore that comment which frankly in my opinion is quite rude. Secondly, I was merely engaging in a debate with the member. I personally feel that certain sports such as archery and shooting amongst others men and women should compete with each other as they do in badminton and equestrian. Nevertheless the purpose of this motion is to acknowledge the achievement and encourage further equality for women in these countries.
    There's no way you could confuse 'final 50m' with 'male set world record in the 400m individual medley', and '0.17s' with 'smash'. Look, you have an agenda - fair enough - but you are just grabbing and exaggerating any stats that seem to support that position. For your conclusion to be that you could put her in to compete with men you really must have not looked into it.
    (Original post by eff01)
    So are you quite happy with the current set up of same sex competition, excluding certain sports such as badminton?
    I think 'one of each' is fair enough in non-contact sports like badminton and tennis as there's no arbitrary quota to worry about and the physical differences don't come into play as much (the woman can stay at the front using mostly her reaction speed and not strength etc). In general, woman are going to be physically rubbish compared to men - even with the same training - because men have testosterone. By mixing the two you make the women look bad because they have to avoid any physical side of the game, and the men don't get to play to their full ability against a team full of players who are able to compete with them physically.
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    Its not a huge achievement, only a small one, but yes it is good.
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    (Original post by Hopple)

    I think 'one of each' is fair enough in non-contact sports like badminton and tennis as there's no arbitrary quota to worry about and the physical differences don't come into play as much (the woman can stay at the front using mostly her reaction speed and not strength etc).
    I see where you are coming from. I do agree with male and female mixed participation in certain non contact sports. But this motion is really about as I have stated acknowledging this significant achievement and encouraging countries to improve equality for women. What's your views on that?
Updated: August 17, 2012
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