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Mitt Romney continues to annoy the world

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So, by your standard, it is acceptable to kill innocent children knowing that you 'might' destroy weapons and you 'might' kill fighters. Also, of course Israel will exclaim that Hamas was using 'human shields,' they just destroyed a school! Israel and morally good - these words are antithetical. Israel sets an unjust precedent that minorities can overthrow the majority no matter how many men, women and children get killed in the process. By your logic it would be acceptable for all the non-white Americans to create a state by claiming the majority of the US for themselves.
Original post by callum9999
When have the Palestinian Authority ever blown up schoolchildren??? Though I would suggest that they weren't merely annoyed at what he specifically said on that tiny soundbite, but also because of his unwavering support (whether just or not) of their mortal enemy who seemingly do their best to make their lives difficult!

Random example, not the only one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27alot_massacre

From its own wiki page, "The Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine... is a member organization of the Palestine Liberation Organization." The Palestinian Authority was established by the PLO after the Oslo Peace Accords, and the PLO continues to represent 'Palestine' at international organisations.

I think it's a lot of murderers trying to smear someone who wants to stop them murdering more people, personally.
Original post by Observatory
Random example, not the only one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27alot_massacre

From its own wiki page, "The Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine... is a member organization of the Palestine Liberation Organization." The Palestinian Authority was established by the PLO after the Oslo Peace Accords, and the PLO continues to represent 'Palestine' at international organisations.

I think it's a lot of murderers trying to smear someone who wants to stop them murdering more people, personally.


It was created with a pact between the PLO and Israel, and is an elected body. As such, I don't see how it has anything to do with the PLO? Even if people elected the entire PLO to the authority, it wouldn't make it a branch of the PLO.

Or have I misunderstood?
Original post by callum9999
It was created with a pact between the PLO and Israel, and is an elected body. As such, I don't see how it has anything to do with the PLO? Even if people elected the entire PLO to the authority, it wouldn't make it a branch of the PLO.

Or have I misunderstood?

It is like Sinn Fein and the IRA - notionally separate organisations run by the same people.

e: to be fair, Hamas has recently become significant in the PA, and it isn't in the PLO. However 1. Hamas didn't exist in 1974 and 2. it's even more militant than the PLO.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Freedom Writer
So, by your standard, it is acceptable to kill innocent children knowing that you 'might' destroy weapons and you 'might' kill fighters. Also, of course Israel will exclaim that Hamas was using 'human shields,' they just destroyed a school! Israel and morally good - these words are antithetical. Israel sets an unjust precedent that minorities can overthrow the majority no matter how many men, women and children get killed in the process. By your logic it would be acceptable for all the non-white Americans to create a state by claiming the majority of the US for themselves.


If the choice is between stopping incessant rocket attacks from a school or letting them continue with the possibility of killing your own civilians, you'll agree that the decision is a difficult one. Of the few cases of Israel attacking schools, which is obviously wrong, several have turned out to be falsely reported and others were the fault of Hamas. Your knowledge of the origins of the state of Israel is truly appalling too.
Israel must know that these ‘incessant’ rocket attacks happen because they annexed Palestinian land, and because the Palestinian’s have suffered greatly after the creation of the state of Israel. Firstly, it does not help the cause for Hamas, or any rogue unit, to fire rockets. However Israel destroying schools in Gaza is a vindictive response. To blame Hamas is stereotypical Israeli propaganda. Israel should NEVER destroy a school, or hospital, because that will only lead to civilian casualties and further resentment among the Palestinians, and many others.

Imagine if you were a Palestinian, imprisoned in Gaza without electricity, or a school to attend, who has suffered greatly because of Israel, and the world watches on in vein, what would you do? If Israel suffered the same oppression that the Palestinians have suffered I would support them just as vehemently. Also, it still stands that Israel is a bad precedent for the world. It would be catastrophic if another group of people choose to follow Israel’s philosophy on establishing a nation.
Original post by Freedom Writer
Israel must know that these ‘incessant’ rocket attacks happen because they annexed Palestinian land, and because the Palestinian’s have suffered greatly after the creation of the state of Israel. Firstly, it does not help the cause for Hamas, or any rogue unit, to fire rockets. However Israel destroying schools in Gaza is a vindictive response. To blame Hamas is stereotypical Israeli propaganda. Israel should NEVER destroy a school, or hospital, because that will only lead to civilian casualties and further resentment among the Palestinians, and many others.


This really is bad. It could take me a while to debunk the fallacies here, but I'll start with the first one. Post hoc ergo propter hoc: just because the Hamas attacks came after the Israeli occupation of Gaza does not mean that one caused the other. Your terminology is completely wrong too. Israel has not 'annexed' Gaza at all. In fact, it unilaterally withdrew from the territory in 2005, evicting every last Jewish settler, and this was when the rocket attacks increased. Secondly, it does help Hamas to fire rockets at Israel if only to satisfy their own lust for Jewish blood or to secure their own grip on the people of Gaza and promulgate the anti-Israel propaganda that many here seem to have fallen for. What I said earlier is still true - Hamas have done more to oppress the Palestinians than Israel ever have. Thirdly, what grounds do you have to say that Israel shouldn't destroy a school if the school is used as a firing ground for Hamas rockets? Are you seriously saying that even in a situation where a) the school was empty of all but Hamas combatants and b) the rockets they were firing were hitting Israeli schools, that you would still not allow Israel to respond? Destroying schools is nothing to do with being vindictive - it is to do with a nation's territorial integrity and the protection of the civilians within.

Imagine if you were a Palestinian, imprisoned in Gaza without electricity, or a school to attend, who has suffered greatly because of Israel, and the world watches on in vein, what would you do? If Israel suffered the same oppression that the Palestinians have suffered I would support them just as vehemently. Also, it still stands that Israel is a bad precedent for the world. It would be catastrophic if another group of people choose to follow Israel’s philosophy on establishing a nation.


Why would I need to imagine that? Why can I not look at this objectively, without adopting prejudices? What people experience has nothing to do with the actions they then take. This whole "if you were a Palestinian you would be a suicide bomber too" is just petty excuse making. Secondly, why is it that the underdog is always the more moral side? It's as if by virtue of being oppressed you automatically become righteous, and any action you take, whether it be rocket launching or blowing up innocent people, becomes sanitised. It does not stand that Israel is a bad example. Israel is one of the few states established by a legal mandate and with relatively few lives lost. Compare Israel to the great democracies - the UK, Australia, Canada, the USA. The creation of Israel was incredibly non-violent in comparison. (And your earlier statements hint to me that you don't know that much about how Israel was created.)
Reply 67
Might be worth mentioning: Romney, after hearing about the Palestinian outrage over his speech, denied that he talked about culture in relation to Palestine:



The Fox and conservative praise reigned in and Romney was oblivious to it. Credit to him though, he changed his position again later the same day:

During my recent trip to Israel, I had suggested that the choices a society makes about its culture play a role in creating prosperity, and that the significant disparity between Israeli and Palestinian living standards was powerfully influenced by it. In some quarters, that comment became the subject of controversy.


http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/312830/culture-does-matter-mitt-romney

This guy flip-flops like no other! I wonder when (and if) his supporters will realise that he is completely fake. I doubt it.
(edited 11 years ago)
This is illogical, and makes no sense. If Israel did not exist, and annex Palestinian territory, no rockets would be fired into Israel.


Your terminology is completely wrong too. Israel has not 'annexed' Gaza at all. In fact, it unilaterally withdrew from the territory in 2005, evicting every last Jewish settler, and this was when the rocket attacks increased.


Israel occupied Palestine through making Palestinian territory their own. For this argument, immigration and settlement building, will be considered as contributing to ‘annexation.’

Secondly, it does help Hamas to fire rockets at Israel if only to satisfy their own lust for Jewish blood or to secure their own grip on the people of Gaza and promulgate the anti-Israel propaganda that many here seem to have fallen for.


As I mentioned earlier, if Israel did not exist there would be no conflict, Israel is the source of the problem. Also, Israel destroying schools and hospitals, especially UN built schools, only highlights the unexplainable pathological hate they feel towards Palestinians. (also, I presume you're not jewish)

What I said earlier is still true - Hamas have done more to oppress the Palestinians than Israel ever have.


If Hamas oppresses its people than so does Israel; depending on what you mean by ‘oppress.’ Ironically, Hamas and Israel fight for the same cause: defending their people. If you were not so biased you might actually be able to see reality.

Thirdly, what grounds do you have to say that Israel shouldn't destroy a school if the school is used as a firing ground for Hamas rockets? Are you seriously saying that even in a situation where a) the school was empty of all but Hamas combatants and b) the rockets they were firing were hitting Israeli schools, that you would still not allow Israel to respond? Destroying schools is nothing to do with being vindictive - it is to do with a nation's territorial integrity and the protection of the civilians within.


So you would support killing innocent children for a false claim that militants were hiding in a school this is vindictive and sick. Israel has the military equipment to destroy rockets without destroying schools this is a major point. Additionally, Israel not only targets schools but also hospitals, Israel seems to find militants everywhere. Destroying a nation’s infrastructure constitutes being vindictive.

Why would I need to imagine that? Why can I not look at this objectively, without adopting prejudices? What people experience has nothing to do with the actions they then take. This whole "if you were a Palestinian you would be a suicide bomber too" is just petty excuse making.


This does not make sense, and sounds hypocritical, it would be objective to imagine my scenario because than you will see the Palestinian point of view. Only seeing the conflict through the Israeli perspective, as you evidently do, is both biased and subjective.

Secondly, why is it that the underdog is always the more moral side? It's as if by virtue of being oppressed you automatically become righteous, and any action you take, whether it be rocket launching or blowing up innocent people, becomes sanitised.


The main point is that you should see both sides of the argument. For example, looking at Nazi Germany, would it be acceptable, for me, to come to the conclusion that the Nazi’s were vindictive?

It does not stand that Israel is a bad example. Israel is one of the few states established by a legal mandate and with relatively few lives lost.



Yes, it still stands. Israel was created peacefully if you ignore the fact that many innocent people died. At least 32 nations do not recognise Israel hardly legal.

Compare Israel to the great democracies - the UK, Australia, Canada, the USA. The creation of Israel was incredibly non-violent in comparison.


You cannot compare two nations in such a general sense.


(And your earlier statements hint to me that you don't know that much about how Israel was created.)


Sorry, I do not know the Fox News / Daily Mail equivalent of the creation of the state of Israel.
(edited 11 years ago)

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