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Tbh, the USA are the biggest opponents to peace in the world.

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    There is no money at home? Generate as much propaganda at home to divert attention towards the Middle East. A lot of the states being demonized are far from angelic in their own policies but they are made into scapegoats by the western media. Israel? Yes, we support them even though they impose a Nazi like terror over Palestine.

    Losing their place as the undisputed superpower? Oh, it is all China's fault. They cheat and they have terrible human rights records (Yes, but the USA's actions abroad aren't exactly complying with human rights are they? How many times have we heard about people from the countries the US has invaded being brutalised? )
    Seriously, the sinophobic sentiment currently spreading makes me sick.

    The Russians? Oh they're all in the Kremlin plotting to build more nukes.

    Apart from 'democracy' what do the USA actually offer the world apart from terror and aggression? They have somehow managed to piss of the entire world with sheer hypocrisy and racism. God help us if Mitt Romney becomes President.
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    Wrong. I think the USA actually offer the world some security when it comes to issues like Iran.
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    (Original post by Cephalus)
    Wrong. I think the USA actually offer the world some security when it comes to issues like Iran.
    Title of this thread is over the top yes. But I see America as the biggest warmongers in the world. By security regarding Iran, yeah, if it means you practically support Israel bombing the hell out of it then yes that is security. But to me, it reeks of human catastrophe.
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    (Original post by yl_llb)
    Title of this thread is over the top yes. But I see America as the biggest warmongers in the world. By security regarding Iran, yeah, if it means you practically support Israel bombing the hell out of it then yes that is security. But to me, it reeks of human catastrophe.
    It does reek of human catastrophe, but it will be Iran's fault I'm afraid.
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    (Original post by Cephalus)
    It does reek of human catastrophe, but it will be Iran's fault I'm afraid.
    Well, if you want to have a history lesson, no, it is not Iran's fault. It is the fault of the Americans and Brits for landing them in this situation in the first place by allowing despots into government. So because of your mistakes, you intend to bomb them.
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    (Original post by yl_llb)
    Well, if you want to have a history lesson, no, it is not Iran's fault. It is the fault of the Americans and Brits for landing them in this situation in the first place by allowing despots into government. So because of your mistakes, you intend to bomb them.
    I know a little history actually. I know for example that the Iran we see today is not the Iran that the West supported. They supported the Shah and did alot of trade with Iran. It was after the Islamic Revolution that things soured. It's not our mistakes.

    And the USA has given Iran every possible chance to come to the negotiating table. Too many chances. And Iran will push America too far
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    (Original post by Cephalus)
    I know a little history actually. I know for example that the Iran we see today is not the Iran that the West supported. They supported the Shah and did alot of trade with Iran. It was after the Islamic Revolution that things soured. It's not our mistakes.

    And the USA has given Iran every possible chance to come to the negotiating table. Too many chances. And Iran will push America too far
    US intelligence knew all about the revolutionaries and did nothing.
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    (Original post by yl_llb)
    US intelligence knew all about the revolutionaries and did nothing.
    But the US can't win (metaphorically). I'm sure if the US has persued a military intervention you would still blame the US for 'warmongering'
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    I think its a mixed bag. While there have been many bad US policies, particulary in South America, where their historical role may be more like that of other Western colonial empires, and to a lesser extent in the Middle East. But in Europe, the US's historical role has been mainly positive.
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    (Original post by Cephalus)
    I know a little history actually. I know for example that the Iran we see today is not the Iran that the West supported. They supported the Shah and did alot of trade with Iran. It was after the Islamic Revolution that things soured. It's not our mistakes.

    And the USA has given Iran every possible chance to come to the negotiating table. Too many chances. And Iran will push America too far
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_AHJQiMxIw

    This is the video that explains everything.
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    (Original post by yl_llb)
    There is no money at home? Generate as much propaganda at home to divert attention towards the Middle East. A lot of the states being demonized are far from angelic in their own policies but they are made into scapegoats by the western media. Israel? Yes, we support them even though they impose a Nazi like terror over Palestine.
    I'll post what I usually do when someone engages in an inane Nazi comparison. I often wonder why people like you even bother with these sort of ridiculous fantasies, aside from your obvious lack of knowledge. What are you really saying when you compare Jews to Nazis and say Israel is a racist state? Is it really about reforming the people of Israel and curing them of their alleged 'racism'? Your real goal here is to situate the Palestinian people within a narrative of victimisation. You realise that you can't do this through facts since the facts are against you, so you do it through insults. You do it through libel. Lies, slanders, conspiracy theories. People like you do it through saying Zionists run the banks, they do it through saying Israel controls the US government. Above all, and perhaps because it's the most insulting, they and you do it by claiming Israel are the modern day descendants of the Nazis. You do it through buzzwords like 'racism' and 'genocide', making it almost impossible to use these terms when they really do happen. What is happening when people say that Israel are Nazis? They are making a pointless, inane comparison, obviously. It's about taking normal, reasonable dialogue and carrying it to the extreme, to the unworkable. It's designed to make the Palestinian line seem like the moral successor of the fight against racism and tyranny, and in turn is a way to brush off your opponents by calling them Nazis since when you do that you know that you don't have to debate them since no one likes Nazis. In a free society you're allowed to say what you want, but that doesn't mean I can't criticise you for it. The comparison of Israel with the Nazis is not legitimate criticism - it is a directly targeted and historically inaccurate insult designed to demonise Jews and compare them to those who massacred them just sixty-odd years ago. As Howard Jacobson said, "Given the number of besieged and battered cities there have been in however many thousands of years of pitiless warfare there is only one explanation for this invocation of Warsaw before any of those – it is to wound Jews in their recent and most anguished history and to punish them with their own grief. Its aim is a sort of retrospective retribution, cancelling out all debts of guilt and sorrow. It is as though, by a reversal of the usual laws of cause and effect, Jewish actions of today prove that Jews had it coming to them yesterday. Berating Jews with their own history, disinheriting them of pity, as though pity is negotiable or has a sell-by date, is the latest species of Holocaust denial, infinitely more subtle than the David Irving version with its clunking body counts and quibbles over gas-chamber capability and chimney sizes. Instead of saying the Holocaust didn't happen, the modern sophisticated denier accepts the event in all its terrible enormity, only to accuse the Jews of trying to profit from it, either in the form of moral blackmail or downright territorial theft. According to this thinking, the Jews have betrayed the Holocaust and become unworthy of it, the true heirs to their suffering being the Palestinians." It's called Holocaust inversion. And it's a disgrace to anyone who knows anything about history or values truth in any way at all. Now we could sit here and quibble about the casualty figures. I could tell you that Iran has executed ten times as many of its own political prisoners in thirty years as Israel have killed Palestinians in sixty years of warfare, and I could ask you why you don't say anything about that. I could tell you that since March alone, Syria's Assad has murdered almost 12,000 people for simply protesting. Israel has killed in the region of 12,000 Palestinians in sixty years, and this was during a full-scale war and is not even anywhere near the death tolls of other major wars that have lasted for shorter periods of time - Vietnam, Tibet, Sri Lanka, Iraq, Turkey. Yet you don't say a thing about them. No, instead of debating casualty figures we should just agree that you have a pathological hatred of the Jewish state and no amount of reasonable argument will make that go away.

    The United States' support for Israel is for the benefit of the American people - ultimately, the only people the US Government is accountable to aside from the UN. The United States promotes a relationship with Israel as a means to access the entire Middle East and secure US interests. This means cooperating in fighting terror groups but it also means economic development. It is in the States' interest for the peoples of the region to live in free societies.

    The Russians? Oh they're all in the Kremlin plotting to build more nukes.
    The modern corporatist Russian state is a massive threat to peace in Europe. Not content with threatening European oil supplies - an issue that is likely to matter a lot more in years to come - the quasi-dictator Putin and his band of neo-fascist supporters are doing all they can to repress the Russian people and extend their influence into eastern Europe, ruining any chance of many of these countries (I'm thinking Ukraine here) becoming Europeanised.

    Apart from 'democracy' what do the USA actually offer the world apart from terror and aggression? They have somehow managed to piss of the entire world with sheer hypocrisy and racism. God help us if Mitt Romney becomes President.
    I find it amusing how you put 'democracy' in quotation marks. I suppose that Iraq isn't a democracy in your view, despite having held their first free elections in decades with scores of candidates. I digress. The USA offer the world a secure base for the protection of civilian life. Most of what the USA has done in the international sphere, aside from episodes of supporting Latin dictatorships, has been tailored to securing the basic rights of individuals and extending the American model of democracy to people who do not know of it. The United Nations, international law, humanitarian intervention - these are all American ideals that ultimately aim for peace. To suggest that a nation of 310 million people, not all of whom support the actions America has taken in places like the Balkans and Afghanistan, are all racist and hypocritical is sheer bigotry.
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    Just to inform, i think england is the softest, in terms of lending and so on, to other countries when england itself is struggling. This in turn creates wars
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    (Original post by internetguru)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_AHJQiMxIw

    This is the video that explains everything.
    That video really is bad. I mean especially the bit towards the end. "Imagine if Iran invaded Mexico and Canada, cut us off from the world then threatened to bomb us unless we stopped producing nuclear power." What a factually incorrect analogy, devoid of any moral sense and pandering to the worst kind of relativism. The argument is totally bunk.
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    Whilst i broadly agree with your post there is a trade off.

    What the USA does is offer the world all but guaranteed protection from a nuclear war breaking out however the trade off is that they are actively hypocritical and cannot be touched.
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    (Original post by Rhadamanthus)
    That video really is bad. I mean especially the bit towards the end. "Imagine if Iran invaded Mexico and Canada, cut us off from the world then threatened to bomb us unless we stopped producing nuclear power." What a factually incorrect analogy, devoid of any moral sense and pandering to the worst kind of relativism. The argument is totally bunk.
    It equates to the USA invading Afghanistan and Iraq placing sanctions on Iran and threatening to bomb Iran unless they stop producing nuclear material. That is factually correct.
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    An edgy view. It must have took a lot of courage to come out and say this.
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    (Original post by internetguru)
    It equates to the USA invading Afghanistan and Iraq placing sanctions on Iran and threatening to bomb Iran unless they stop producing nuclear material. That is factually correct.
    I know what the analogy is, thanks. It is factually incorrect since it commits lies of omission. It does not mention that the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan had UN mandates and legal legitimacy, that the US has since left Iraq and is considering withdrawing from Afghanistan, that Iran (America in the analogy) was at war with Iraq (Canada) for years. As I say, it is devoid of any decent explanation of the issue, preferring a simple game of dodgy comparisons to actually providing a proper explanation.
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    (Original post by Rhadamanthus)
    That video really is bad. I mean especially the bit towards the end. "Imagine if Iran invaded Mexico and Canada, cut us off from the world then threatened to bomb us unless we stopped producing nuclear power." What a factually incorrect analogy, devoid of any moral sense and pandering to the worst kind of relativism. The argument is totally bunk.
    It was. You can tell it was also very biased.
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    (Original post by Rhadamanthus)
    I know what the analogy is, thanks. It is factually incorrect since it commits lies of omission. It does not mention that the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan had UN mandates and legal legitimacy, that the US has since left Iraq and is considering withdrawing from Afghanistan, that Iran (America in the analogy) was at war with Iraq (Canada) for years. As I say, it is devoid of any decent explanation of the issue, preferring a simple game of dodgy comparisons to actually providing a proper explanation.
    The Iraq invasion was declared illegal by the UN what the hell are you talking about?

    I'll make a better analogy. If Iran threatened to bomb Israel if they didn't stop enriching Uranium they claim is for nuclear power is it right for us to support Iran?
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    (Original post by internetguru)
    The Iraq invasion was declared illegal by the UN what the hell are you talking about?

    I'll make a better analogy. If Iran threatened to bomb Israel if they didn't stop enriching Uranium they claim is for nuclear power is it right for us to support Iran?
    No point reasoning with a Zionist.

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Updated: September 9, 2012
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