Tbh, the USA are the biggest opponents to peace in the world.

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I agree that a theocratic system gaining control of nukes is something the world should never have to endure, Iran should be stopped.

But basically every nation has the right to produce nukes if they like and especially the US in possession of the greatest arsenal of nukes have no right to deny the same to other nations unless they abolish their own program as well.

Sure, what happened 65 years ago shouldn't matter anymore, just replace it with 'Abu Ghraib', 'Guantanamo' and 'Iraq'.

Reply 41

internetguru

I can explain the US-UK relationship: financially beneficial for both sides.

What now bro what now?

Iran was not part of the Arab Israeli wars so we can ignore that. Iran has every right to support governments of Palestine and Lebanon, a country can support any government they like. China supports North Korea does that then give South Korea the right to invade China? The USA supports the rebels in Syria therefore Syria now has the right to invade the USA?

Reply 42

Drunk Punx

You don't say...

If the past teaches us anything it's that America likes to arm countries, then invade said countries a few years afterwards when they "discover" that the country has weapons.

Why the likes of Bush Sr haven't been held accountable for their actions in a court is beyond me.

Reply 43

Rhadamanthus

Original post by yellowpages_r_us

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/26/AR2005042601623.html
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/03/iraq-101-iraq-effect-war-iraq-and-its-impact-war-terrorism-pg-1
http://www.comw.org/pda/0609bm38.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500257_162-2036338.html

The number of terrorist attacks against American civilians has steadily decreased. Secondly, any increase in terror recruitment is more to do with the propagandistic campaigns of Islamist terrorists than it is the actions of the USA. I have argued on here before that terrorism is a function of every constitutional order, and that when the nature of the state changes (as it has done since the end of the Cold War) then the nature of the terrorist threats it faces also change. Thirdly, any argument or 'proof' that terror attacks have increased suffer from Parmenides' Fallacy, which "occurs when one tries to assess a future state of affairs by measuring it against the present, as opposed to comparing it to other possible futures." "Or, consider the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan. Are we better off now than we were the day before we intervened? Probably not. Before that war we knew where Al Qaeda had its bases and it had not struck since Sept. 11; a number of American and allied soldiers who became casualties were then alive and unwounded; public opinion in Pakistan was less hostile to America; there was a greater measure of sympathy around the world for our losses in New York and Washington; our economy and confidence in our markets were stronger. But let's ask the relevant question: Are we better off today than we would have been if we had let the Taliban continue arming and sheltering our Qaeda enemies, many of whom we killed and captured in our intervention? Clearly, we are vastly better off for having acted."

Reply 44

Rhadamanthus

Original post by internetguru

Iran was not part of the Arab Israeli wars so we can ignore that. Iran has every right to support governments of Palestine and Lebanon, a country can support any government they like. China supports North Korea does that then give South Korea the right to invade China? The USA supports the rebels in Syria therefore Syria now has the right to invade the USA?

No, a country cannot support whatever government it likes. It is illegal to finance recognised terrorist groups or to give support to organisations which violate UN conventions such as the convention against genocide. Clearly, Iranian support of Hezbollah and Hamas, two recognised terror groups whose main goal is genocide, is both morally and legally wrong.

Reply 45

dgeorge

Original post by yl_llb

There is no money at home? Generate as much propaganda at home to divert attention towards the Middle East. A lot of the states being demonized are far from angelic in their own policies but they are made into scapegoats by the western media. Israel? Yes, we support them even though they impose a Nazi like terror over Palestine.

Losing their place as the undisputed superpower? Oh, it is all China's fault. They cheat and they have terrible human rights records (Yes, but the USA's actions abroad aren't exactly complying with human rights are they? How many times have we heard about people from the countries the US has invaded being brutalised? )
Seriously, the sinophobic sentiment currently spreading makes me sick.

The Russians? Oh they're all in the Kremlin plotting to build more nukes.

Apart from 'democracy' what do the USA actually offer the world apart from terror and aggression? They have somehow managed to piss of the entire world with sheer hypocrisy and racism. God help us if Mitt Romney becomes President.

No

I'll agree that the USA certainly isn't perfect, and doesn't always do it's best to ensure democracy and freedom. But it is certainly one of the better choices.

Reply 46

Freiheit

Can you explain further how Russia is a "massive threat to peace in Europe"?

Reply 47

internetguru

Iran supports them because they want to take back Israel's territory as Iran's leadership disagrees with the way the Israel got its land from the UN. Terrorist groups exist across the globe and Israel has also supported plenty over the years. So how can you claim some countries are allowed to support terrorism while others are not?

Reply 48

yl_llb

Original post by dgeorge

No

I'll agree that the USA certainly isn't perfect, and doesn't always do it's best to ensure democracy and freedom. But it is certainly one of the better choices.

Most of the world despises the USA and rightly so. Fun fact of the day, do you know that they hired a whole bunch of war criminals from Nazi Germany and Japan after WW2 to work on biological weapons? (the same people that killed millions of Jews and Chinese : innocent civilians)

The USA shall never be forgiven and the day will come where it will no longer bully the rest of the world. But, no, wait, they are allowed to do such things as support Bin Laden against the Russians and hire such war criminals to work on their weapons programmes... when it serves their OWN interests.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 49

Rhadamanthus

Original post by internetguru

Stop being hypocritical. Countries can't just disagree with the UN when they feel like it. If you think that Israel ought to listen to the UN and stop building settlements then you should also agree that Iran should stop financing illegal organisations committed to the destruction of a UN member state. Israeli support for terrorism is very minimal and hard to prove compared to the explicit, long-standing propping up of Hezbollah and Hamas by Iran.

Reply 50

dgeorge

Original post by yl_llb

I said, first off, that the USA is NOT perfect and of course they are NOT innocent.
Every country in the world operates primarily for it's OWN GOOD and the USA is not an exception to this.
However, it is the case of the "lesser evil" and I would certainly choose the US to assume a de facto "world protector" role than say China or Iran

Reply 51

Clessus

Original post by Freiheit

Can you explain further how Russia is a "massive threat to peace in Europe"?

Cutting off gas supplies to Bulgaria and Ukraine for their efforts to westernise, launching a cyber war against Estonia and other Baltic states, installing puppet regimes across the former Soviet Bloc, dismembering Moldova invading and dismembering the neighbouring state of Georgia, promoting instability in the Balkans. Threatening to annex the Baltic states and the Crimea.

That's just off the top of my head.

Oh the irony.

If Hamas or Hezbollah wins a democratic election then I do not consider them terrorists. Countries are free to support governments of other nations as governments are not terrorists.

Reply 54

yl_llb

Original post by dgeorge

Oh God, propaganda has really got to your head hasn't it? I suppose raping and killing innocent kids in Iraq and Afghanistan really helps to protect the world.

Reply 55

Rhadamanthus

Original post by internetguru

If Hamas or Hezbollah wins a democratic election then I do not consider them terrorists. Countries are free to support governments of other nations as governments are not terrorists.

Democratically elected terrorists are still terrorists. People who win elections then proceed to knee-cap their opponents and throw them off very tall buildings are not to be supported, legally or morally.

Reply 56

Rhadamanthus

Original post by Clessus

This.

Reply 57

dgeorge

Original post by yl_llb

Oh God, propaganda has really got to your head hasn't it? I suppose raping and killing innocent kids in Iraq and Afghanistan really helps to protect the world.

What part of "lesser of two evils" do you NOT understand? Do I really need to explain this to you a third time?

Reply 58

internetguru

No when a country attacks civilians it is not a terrorist attack. If the CIA conducts an attack against civilians it is not a terrorist attack.

Reply 59

Rhadamanthus

Original post by internetguru

No when a country attacks civilians it is not a terrorist attack. If the CIA conducts an attack against civilians it is not a terrorist attack.

What has this got to do with anything? I know that states cannot commit terrorist attacks by definition. Hamas and Hezbollah are not states, nor are they the security agencies of their respective states. They are listed terrorist organisations that receive illicit money from Iran.