Hey there Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Guardian is anti-Semitic?

Announcements Posted on
    • 28 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Dragonfly07)
    But it's unwise and even slightly racist to mention the holocaust as a "trauma" to the Jews and suggest that they should get sympathy because it happened. Most of the people who were in the holocaust are now either dead or 1000 years old.

    That's the thing about racism - people assume that children are exactly the same as their parents simply because of their race. Jewish children can and do grow and assimilate in new countries and live different lives without having any direct "trauma" from the holocaust. They haven't been there. They haven't experienced it. They don't give a ****. They're separate entities.
    I used to be far more emotionally attached to this issue than I am now. I now seek to take an objective, balanced view of the conflict and when I present certain things as historical facts, I do so not out of a personal support for Zionism and Israel but because of my respect for historiography. This is why I frequently speak about crimes committed by Israel in the War of Independence. Zionism and Israel saved the Jews from complete dissolution, by which I mean not the Holocaust, but rather the process of assimilation. Zionism and many practices of the Israeli state are problematic, yes. But you should not underestimate what it achieved as a moral force in an era of complete dissolution.
    • 9 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    I wasn't for one moment suggesting that all Jews are alike or think alike. And I wasn't suggesting that someone who happens to be Jewish must have certain characteristics because of his being Jewish.

    What I was saying is that for a great many Jews (perhaps less so for completely atheistic ones with fewer ties to the Jewish community and its history) the history of our persecution is not far from their minds. Just this week all religious Jews spent the day fasting, mourning and remembering how we have been persecuted throughout most of the last 2,000 years. Given that that is the case, if someone feels they are wrongly accused of antisemitism, it would show some sensitivity and humanity to understand where that accusation comes from. On the other hand, it shows a certain level of callousness to dismiss the concerns out of hand and tell them to "get over it already"!

    Like I said, in my mind its like telling the victim of abuse to "get over it" a couple of years after their abuse has finished. Except that here it is somewhat worse since Jews are still being murdered and mistreated across the globe for no reason other than that they are Jewish.
    I happen have been brought up in one of the most orthodox communities in Israel (Bnei Brak) so I know all about the fasts and the remembrances. Tisha B'Av has nothing to do with the holocaust, it has to do with the destruction of the temples. It was over 1000 years ago, get over it. Most of the people I know who fast don't even care about the occasion itself but rather about showing off to other people that they managed to finish the fast. No one is attached to the temple because no one lived during its time. No one has any trauma from it.

    If anything, they traumatize the kids by telling them that they SHOULD be shocked and saddened by anything that ever happened in Jewish history and to feel the past plights of their ancestors. It's sad that they have to do that really, and it's not good for the kids. They're stuck in the past and they don't look for the future (the religious Jewish people that is, not the secular ones).

    (Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish)
    I would definitely join you in taking exception to the way UniOfLife has appealed for 'sensitivity' etc in regards to the Holocaust and made the 'abused child' analogy, even if his above analysis of the Guardian is spot-on. But I do think that Jewish history, and that particular episode, is vital to understanding the necessity of Israel in a slightly different way, in that Jews have learned an important lesson about the need to never again be completely at the mercy of others, and about the suicidal results of complacency and pacifism.
    I agree with you, although I do hope that in the future there won't be any need for a Jewish state because of global acceptance of every colour and ethnicity. A woman can only dream

    (Original post by Rhadamanthus)
    I used to be far more emotionally attached to this issue than I am now. I now seek to take an objective, balanced view of the conflict and when I present certain things as historical facts, I do so not out of a personal support for Zionism and Israel but because of my respect for historiography. This is why I frequently speak about crimes committed by Israel in the War of Independence. Zionism and Israel saved the Jews from complete dissolution, by which I mean not the Holocaust, but rather the process of assimilation. Zionism and many practices of the Israeli state are problematic, yes. But you should not underestimate what it achieved as a moral force in an era of complete dissolution.
    I am the same as you in terms of the emotional distancing thing.

    I don't know what you mean by the Jews having been saved from assimilation. Do you mean you think they shouldn't mix with other people?

    What has Israel achieved that's moral? Of course it's better than all of the other countries in the middle east, but I always thought it was because of the higher numbers of secular people that live there (not enough religious influence to ruin it, particularly now that they don't want to exempt religious yeshiva students from the army. They're threatening to leave Israel thank god.)
    • 1 follower
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Dragonfly07)
    I happen have been brought up in one of the most orthodox communities in Israel (Bnei Brak) so I know all about the fasts and the remembrances. Tisha B'Av has nothing to do with the holocaust, it has to do with the destruction of the temples. It was over 1000 years ago, get over it. Most of the people I know who fast don't even care about the occasion itself but rather about showing off to other people that they managed to finish the fast. No one is attached to the temple because no one lived during its time. No one has any trauma from it.

    If anything, they traumatize the kids by telling them that they SHOULD be shocked and saddened by anything that ever happened in Jewish history and to feel the past plights of their ancestors. It's sad that they have to do that really, and it's not good for the kids. They're stuck in the past and they don't look for the future (the religious Jewish people that is, not the secular ones).
    You undermine your arguments by making statements that are only half-true. Tisha B'Av, you're right, was initially about the destruction of the temples. But it has also been the day when Jews remember our other persecutions. Have you never read the Kinnot? If it were only about the temples, then why are there Kinnot for the persecutions of the Crusades and the Holocaust and other major spikes of persecution. (Plus, while it is true that the temples were destroyed over 1,000 years ago, it is more true to say it was close to 2,000 years ago).

    Now, your comments about "getting over it" are the comments typical of our generation - the so-called third generation. But our generation isn't in charge. Instead it is the second generation who are, and their attitudes are very different.

    But let me ask you 2 simple questions because, after all, I might be wrong:

    1) Are you a part of a Jewish community?
    2) Do you feel, as a Jew, that you are as safe in the world as anybody else? (would you feel less safe if you were easily identifiable as a Jew?)
    • 9 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    You undermine your arguments by making statements that are only half-true. Tisha B'Av, you're right, was initially about the destruction of the temples. But it has also been the day when Jews remember our other persecutions. Have you never read the Kinnot? If it were only about the temples, then why are there Kinnot for the persecutions of the Crusades and the Holocaust and other major spikes of persecution. (Plus, while it is true that the temples were destroyed over 1,000 years ago, it is more true to say it was close to 2,000 years ago).

    Now, your comments about "getting over it" are the comments typical of our generation - the so-called third generation. But our generation isn't in charge. Instead it is the second generation who are, and their attitudes are very different.

    But let me ask you 2 simple questions because, after all, I might be wrong:

    1) Are you a part of a Jewish community?
    2) Do you feel, as a Jew, that you are as safe in the world as anybody else? (would you feel less safe if you were easily identifiable as a Jew?)
    I don't want to get into the little details into what tisha b'av represents because it's irrelevant to my point.

    1) I haven't been a part of the Jewish community since I became atheist and I couldn't live at my parents house anymore (they disowned me).
    2) I have never felt safe being Jewish when there were many Muslims around that were quite obviously antisemitic (e.g. when I was living in London), but I feel safe in the university I'm at now and I befriended the few muslims that are present here (we have a lot in common, coming from the middle east). But that's still irrelevant. I support a Jewish state because I know many other Jews feel unsafe around the world, but today's threats have nothing to do with the threats that were present in 1945.
    • 2 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Dragonfly07)
    I don't want to get into the little details into what tisha b'av represents because it's irrelevant to my point.

    1) I haven't been a part of the Jewish community since I became atheist and I couldn't live at my parents house anymore (they disowned me).
    2) I have never felt safe being Jewish when there were many Muslims around that were quite obviously antisemitic (e.g. when I was living in London), but I feel safe in the university I'm at now and I befriended the few muslims that are present here (we have a lot in common, coming from the middle east). But that's still irrelevant. I support a Jewish state because I know many other Jews feel unsafe around the world, but today's threats have nothing to do with the threats that were present in 1945.
    One might be inclined to comment on the dissonance here... If the purpose of a Jewish state is safety for its occupants, maybe the Middle East isn't the best place for it.
    • 9 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by FrigidSymphony)
    One might be inclined to comment on the dissonance here... If the purpose of a Jewish state is safety for its occupants, maybe the Middle East isn't the best place for it.
    I agree. Too late for that though, it has millions of occupants.
    • 1 follower
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Dragonfly07)
    I don't want to get into the little details into what tisha b'av represents because it's irrelevant to my point.

    1) I haven't been a part of the Jewish community since I became atheist and I couldn't live at my parents house anymore (they disowned me).
    2) I have never felt safe being Jewish when there were many Muslims around that were quite obviously antisemitic (e.g. when I was living in London), but I feel safe in the university I'm at now and I befriended the few muslims that are present here (we have a lot in common, coming from the middle east). But that's still irrelevant. I support a Jewish state because I know many other Jews feel unsafe around the world, but today's threats have nothing to do with the threats that were present in 1945.
    Its only in your last statement that we disagree. I think it is completely absurd to suggest that hatred against Jews now has nothing to do with hatred against Jews in times gone by. Are we to believe that the reasons for antisemitism that were around for so long in Europe suddenly disappeared after 1945 and entirely new and unconnected reasons appeared? The very notion of it is ridiculous and it is flatly contradicted by reality.

    This is why I say that the long history of Jewish persecution has an impact on the way the Jewish community and Israel reacts to things. Perhaps you do not feel any connection between that history and the current situation - but most do.
    • 2 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Dragonfly07)
    I agree. Too late for that though, it has millions of occupants.
    Don't get me wrong- I'm an atheist, a very vocal one, but my mother's family is your stereotypical New York Jewish one. Surgeons, laywers and bookkeepers, with the accent to go with it. I support the right of the Israeli state to exist, yet at the same time support the right of a Palestinian nation to exist (according to the principle of national self-determination).
    • 9 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    Its only in your last statement that we disagree. I think it is completely absurd to suggest that hatred against Jews now has nothing to do with hatred against Jews in times gone by. Are we to believe that the reasons for antisemitism that were around for so long in Europe suddenly disappeared after 1945 and entirely new and unconnected reasons appeared? The very notion of it is ridiculous and it is flatly contradicted by reality.

    This is why I say that the long history of Jewish persecution has an impact on the way the Jewish community and Israel reacts to things. Perhaps you do not feel any connection between that history and the current situation - but most do.
    Sorry, I should have phrased myself better. Of course historical antisemitism has an impact on today's antisemitism. I just hate it when Jewish people use it to justify so many wrong doings and try to get the sympathy card. Use valid arguments instead of crying about something that happened almost 100 years ago. It's no different to white supremacists who claim that whites rule (or should rule) the world because of historical events. It's stupid, look at the present instead.
    • 9 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by FrigidSymphony)
    Don't get me wrong- I'm an atheist, a very vocal one, but my mother's family is your stereotypical New York Jewish one. Surgeons, laywers and bookkeepers, with the accent to go with it. I support the right of the Israeli state to exist, yet at the same time support the right of a Palestinian nation to exist (according to the principle of national self-determination).
    I didn't get you wrong lol.

    Edit: I'm exactly the same as you but I think a lot of westerners are quite naive to the situation over there. That's a different discussion though.
    • 1 follower
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Dragonfly07)
    Sorry, I should have phrased myself better. Of course historical antisemitism has an impact on today's antisemitism. I just hate it when Jewish people use it to justify so many wrong doings and try to get the sympathy card. Use valid arguments instead of crying about something that happened almost 100 years ago. It's no different to white supremacists who claim that whites rule (or should rule) the world because of historical events. It's stupid, look at the present instead.
    Then you completely misunderstood what I was saying.

    I was responding to someone bemoaning how they always get labelled as antisemitic when criticising Israel. First I pointed out that the claim is not true. Second I pointed out that if some Jewish people are very sensitive to antisemitism that is something that should be understood in the context of Jewish history and not dismissed immediately with a simple "get over it already" and certainly should not be turned around into something to further criticise Jews for.
    • 9 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    Then you completely misunderstood what I was saying.

    I was responding to someone bemoaning how they always get labelled as antisemitic when criticising Israel. First I pointed out that the claim is not true. Second I pointed out that if some Jewish people are very sensitive to antisemitism that is something that should be understood in the context of Jewish history and not dismissed immediately with a simple "get over it already" and certainly should not be turned around into something to further criticise Jews for.
    I criticise them for it (lightly) but maybe you're right. People look at Jews from under a microscope and they like to criticise them over proportionately in a way that seems to result in extreme hatred. I have no idea why (they killed Jesus? The quran?). I try to be fair where fairness is due though.
    • 8 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    Wow. What was that. That guy really got his kicks from that rant.
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    What does it actually mean to be an "anti-semite" anyway? I've heard it used a bad word to call someone who disagrees with anything related to Jews. Like when that circumcision ban was introduced it was accused of being anti-Semitic, which struck me as a bit of a bizarre accusation.


    I just feel it a word that's used politically to leverage the concerns of Jewish people, over other groups of people, rather than to point out true examples of hatred against Jewish people.
    • 9 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by :)ella)
    Disagreeing with the politics of Israel is very different to being anti-Semitic, and yes there might be some columists who they should check out more carefully but sometimes their opinions are necessary for the purposes of the article. The Guardian is always very careful to distinguish opinion from fact.

    What about all the pro-Israel American media that can be pretty Islamophobic?

    I hate how we're not allowed to say we disagree with Israel without being accused of being anti-Semitic!
    You're allowed to disagree with Israel but expect to be called out on antisemitism when you deploy antisemetic tropes that allude to Jewish control of x or invoke Nazi comparisons etc - something which several Guardian columnists have down and something which the Guardian seems to have little problem with overall.
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by :)ella)
    Disagreeing with the politics of Israel is very different to being anti-Semitic, and yes there might be some columists who they should check out more carefully but sometimes their opinions are necessary for the purposes of the article. The Guardian is always very careful to distinguish opinion from fact.

    What about all the pro-Israel American media that can be pretty Islamophobic?

    I hate how we're not allowed to say we disagree with Israel without being accused of being anti-Semitic!
    who's stopping you? avoid standard anti-semitic stereotypes (eg. the jews are taking over the WORLD!!!!) and hidden anti-semitism (jews cannot use the right of self-determination, they're not a REAL people) and you're good to go.
    • 1 follower
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by thisisnew)
    You're allowed to disagree with Israel but expect to be called out on antisemitism when you deploy antisemetic tropes that allude to Jewish control of x or invoke Nazi comparisons etc - something which several Guardian columnists have down and something which the Guardian seems to have little problem with overall.
    Can you show evidence of the most recent articles - which display these accusations?
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    yes jason kenny
    • 2 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by thisisnew)
    You're allowed to disagree with Israel but expect to be called out on antisemitism when you deploy antisemetic tropes that allude to Jewish control of x or invoke Nazi comparisons etc - something which several Guardian columnists have down and something which the Guardian seems to have little problem with overall.
    So comparing the behaviour of the IDF to Nazis is anti-semitic? Says who?

    And if Sir Philip Green reminds me of Hermann Goering?

Reply

Submit reply

Register

Thanks for posting! You just need to create an account in order to submit the post
  1. this can't be left blank
    that username has been taken, please choose another Forgotten your password?

    this is what you'll be called on TSR

  2. this can't be left blank
    this email is already registered. Forgotten your password?

    never shared and never spammed

  3. this can't be left blank

    6 characters or longer with both numbers and letters is safer

  4. this can't be left empty
    your full birthday is required
  1. By joining you agree to our Ts and Cs, privacy policy and site rules

  2. Slide the button to the right to create your account

    Slide to join now Processing…

Updated: August 10, 2012
New on TSR

Rice cooker in your uni halls?

Would you bring a rice cooker to uni?

Article updates
Useful resources
Reputation gems:
You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.