[Jackso]

(Original post by NYU2012)
And that is why I find it so difficult to try to engage with people who have not familiarized themselves with the subject and have no desire to do so.

To be fair, you've come off as incredibly stubborn and condescending when presented with facts that go against your argument. In fact, from the way you've been typing, it seems you don't think men have anything in life that's more difficult than women, which is obviously a load of ****. Just tone it down.

[Chief Wiggum]

(Original post by Jackso)
To be fair, you've come off as incredibly stubborn and condescending when presented with facts that go against your argument. In fact, from the way you've been typing, it seems you don't think men have anything in life that's more difficult than women, which is obviously a load of ****. Just tone it down.

This.

[Dragonfly07]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
It is, from my experiences of observing other people. Please describe exactly what you consider creepy. I consider it staring more than 5 seconds consecutively or staring even with the person knowing your staring.

I consider it either staring for more than 5 seconds or calling out. That's from my experience. I would say it's about 10% of men, usually the ones over a certain age (35 or so?).

(Original post by Jackso)
Based on what, exactly? That's pretty much direct sexism right there.

That's not sexism, **** your labels. It's a trend I and other women notice regularly.

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by Dragonfly07)
I consider it either staring for more than 5 seconds or calling out. That's from my experience. I would say it's about 10% of men, usually the ones over a certain age (35 or so?).

Meh, I'm not a women so you're obviously going to have more experience. But, I still think it's lower than that 10% is a helluva lot. Consider how many people you'd be able to see whilst walking then consider how many people can see you. Your sampling is thus limited. Then also consider cognitive biases that you're unable to control and we're ALL prone to e.g. confirmation bias. Only a scientific study could give us proper results on this.

That's not sexism, **** your labels. It's a trend I and other women notice regularly.

Hahaha. +1 for making me laugh.

[Dragonfly07]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Meh, I'm not a women so you're obviously going to have more experience. But, I still think it's lower than that 10% is a helluva lot. Consider how many people you'd be able to see whilst walking then consider how many people can see you. Your sampling is thus limited. Then also consider cognitive biases that you're unable to control and we're ALL prone to e.g. confirmation bias. Only a scientific study could give us proper results on this.

Maybe you're right. If I take a walk I would notice/be pissed off more at those people that I notice staring at me or calling out so for me they would be in the majority in my eyes.

That's sort of the point though that it's impossible to take a walk without experiencing any of that, and that automatically makes the numbers too high in my eyes and other women's too.

I also think that it depends on the area you live. For example, living on campus everyone is my age and not sexually frustrated (they probably get laid a lot) so I can walk around literally half naked and no one would give me a second glance. Then, as soon as I leave campus, I immediately feel more self conscious when there are older men around, and that's just in a small town that doesn't have many people. I automatically wrap myself up more when I go to town out of self consciousness, but that still doesn't help much.

I used to live in London and it's SO MUCH WORSE over there, especially in the minority areas.

I guess you can't really do anything about it because it's not illegal and should never be illegal under any circumstances either.

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by Dragonfly07)
Maybe you're right. If I take a walk I would notice/be pissed off more at those people that I notice staring at me or calling out so for me they would be in the majority in my eyes.

That's sort of the point though that it's impossible to take a walk without experiencing any of that, and that automatically makes the numbers too high in my eyes and other women's too.

I also think that it depends on the area you live. For example, living on campus everyone is my age and not sexually frustrated (they probably get laid a lot) so I can walk around literally half naked and no one would give me a second glance. Then, as soon as I leave campus, I immediately feel more self conscious when there are older men around, and that's just in a small town that doesn't have many people. I automatically wrap myself up more when I go to town out of self consciousness, but that still doesn't help much.

I used to live in London and it's SO MUCH WORSE over there, especially in the minority areas.

I guess you can't really do anything about it because it's not illegal and should never be illegal under any circumstances either.

Yeah I know what you mean about minority areas, must suck. But, creeps will be creeps. Only realistic thing that can combat it is the social acceptance of prostitution which should see less sexually frustrated men but even then they'll still be a lot of creeps.

[rad_student]

(Original post by NYU2012)
Primarily because it's not my job to educate you, I'm not your professor; if you want to come to New York University when I'm lecturing on sex and gender, then by all means do so, at which point it would be my job to so. But, as it currently stands, it's not my job to do research for you.

Secondly, most of your post does not contain proper syntax or spelling; "u" is not a word "you" is, for example. If you cannot even take the time to type out a simple, syntactically correct, and properly spelled post, why should I take the incentive to respond to you and answer your questions?

What sociology lessons you have supposedly attended have apparently been completely inadequate, as a large portion of your post demonstrates a lack of understanding of the relevant sociology and psychology. For example:

"I don't get binary opposition gender system."

Westernized society operates, for a very bizarre reason, which is due entirely to European influence, on a binary opposition gender system -- 'man' and 'woman', which are opposites of one another. 'Man' displays 'masculine' features and 'woman' displays 'feminine' features -- the particular features of which are in opposition to one another.

You also have a vastly conflated sex with gender and seem to think that these are the same things; they are not. You refer to sexual physical differences as if they are the same as gender differences in numerous places in your post.

The main reason for me not really wanting to respond, however, is that combined with above-stated, I don't feel like banging my head against a wall while attempting to deal with the profound ignorance throughout this thread -- as its entirely obvious you, as well as the vast majority of this thread, has never actually read any feminist literature on gender or analyses of law, society, etc.


Some good starting points:
If you want to educate yourself on the topic of women's rights, here is the link to the book I recommended before: http://www.amazon.com/Womens-Rights-.../dp/0415804523

If you want to educate yourself on our binary gender system:
http://www.amazon.com/Gender-Outlaw-.../dp/0679757015

To be clear, I have no problem responding to or engaging with people who have read relevant literature, etc. I do have a problem engaging with people who have not -- primarily because such individuals have never actually thought about the gender system of Westernized society and have not spent time actually examining the relevant laws, stereotypes, archetypes, etc. And it's very difficult to engage with someone on an intellectual level when they have not yet familiarized themselves with the subject. Why is that the case? Because our understanding of sex and gender is so deeply ingrained into our perceptions of the world, that we so often ignore that we're even making gender assumptions. And that is why I find it so difficult to try to engage with people who have not familiarized themselves with the subject and have no desire to do so.

Thanks for the links & what binary opposition gender system (too much reading in google, so I thought I'd get my main points across for the time).
Your post almost seems rather than take the debate further u can't be bothered because
1) I write "u" as shorthand - Ans: to save time typing, next u'll be on to my typos (I believe I have answered ur only question);
2) that u don't feel the other people ("profound ignorance throughout this thread") here as worthy to be informed/educated;
3) they have not read what you have & its not your job.

I try & gave info out there to take understanding further & I may be wrong - I don't say I'm not gonna converse further & stop; does it not sound rude or nothing further of benefit to add? You haven't addressed any point in my last post to u. You could have added more to this thread, ur choice. So I only got as far as Esther Viilar's The Manipulated Man.

I have thought about the gender system for a while intensly, but I stick to the real world, I give examples of what is happening when u step out of Uni & I say something that can be understood - I certainly don't get high & mighty about it; I try at least once to explain if anything is not clear.
I mentioned I knew someone who has trouble getting contact with his daughter, he kindly gave me the link for his FB story Fathers-Truth click "see more." Real World where understanding "relevant laws, stereotypes, archetypes, etc" is not gonna help, e.g. women falslely accusing men of rape will not help whether a straight/gay man & here are a few reasons.

You refer to sexual physical differences as if they are the same as gender differences in numerous places in your post. - I refer to it because for different abilities pay outcome is the same - without risk; especially wrt police bonus pay in video. Just as u'd dislike it if less educated/qualified person was payed more than you in ur job, as the employer wanted to have equal gender outcomes.

I am sorry if it feels like you'd be banging ur head against a wall as it that means you can't explain yourself or is it some other reason(s)? I'll certainly give you the respect to have a good skim through your links b4 responding, I hope u will give me similar courtesy for my previous posts. I am describing what's happening & trying to with helpful posts from others, WHY it is happenning, what's changed from 30 years ago? I can't explain the underlying reasons why more DV happens between lesbians (UK anyway), but maybe someone else can, so I ask.
Would it make u feel more superior/better if I said English isn't my 'first language' ?

Edit: what do they call it when you talk about the person (to distraction) rather than the points presented? Argumentum Ad Hominem? "A prosecutor asks the judge to not admit the testimony of a burglar because burglars are not trustworthy."
So if u wanna answer - I'd prefer ur counter arguments to the other 2 posts - I couldn't care less about this one, as it does nothing in taking this thread forward. I even took courtesy to use USA info, which I am not too familiar with.

[RJ555]

Just a few points:

(Original post by NYU2012)
I don't think you understood the question.

If a woman rapes a man, is the man blamed for the rape? "What were you wearing? Were you flirting with her?" etc.

I don't think you understand the legal system. A woman CANNOT rape a man. It is, I believe a failure of the legal system in that similar assaults against men receive a different title (sexual assault or assault via penetration). Whilst the potential sentences for these crimes are equivalent to rape, they are often (probably due to the naming) seen as being "lesser crimes".

Men who have been sexually assaulted, whilst not facing "blame" as such often face the presumption that "they are men, they were up for it anyway".

(Original post by NYU2012)
I reiterate, our gender system is very phallocentric. Have you ever actually read the sociological literature on gender?...Pick up the book "Women's Rights in the USA", go to the Reproductive Rights section, then come back.

I've read literature from both sides, it appears you have focussed your reading on "gender studies" (looking through the gender studies section of my university library you will see 95% of the books are on women's rights, so bias is understandable).

May I suggest you read a book entitled "The War Against Boys", it makes some shocking claims about the failures of the American (although it applies equally to the UK situation) educational system in providing for boys.

And what exactly do you mean by "our gender system", is there such a thing? Our legal, health-care and educationalsystems are failing men and boys; whereas I'd say women are affected more by employment, social and sexuality issues (again, both genders are suffering).

I don't think it has been mentioned in this thread but what about the harsher sentences men receive for committing identical crimes to women. Read about the Equal Treatment Bench Book which in a round a bout way actually recommended women be given lenient sentences. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...criminals.html Couple longer sentences with a shorter life expectancy and this is a devastating blow to men's rights.

With all of this I am not saying men have it harder, merely that men's rights are more unrepresented (going back to the original post in this thread and several throughout). I am merely trying to balance out peoples viewpoint from "men have it so easy because they don't have to give birth" to a fairer more insightful view. Because women are suffering injustices it seems feminists feel they have to brush mens issues under the carpet, rather than everyone coming together and addressing BOTH genders issues (which is why I am against feminism in its traditional form).

[Jono404]

(Original post by NYU2012)
To those of you who keep quoting me attempting to refute my points or get me to respond: Before you quote me or attempt to refute me, pick up some books on feminist literature, start with maybe "Women's Right's in the USA". Until you've actually educated yourself on the feminist literature available, I have no interest in attempting to engage you, as it's a complete waste of my time.

If your signature doesn't let everyone know that you're easily the most pretentious person on this site, that paragraph is bound to let everyone know the score.

[rad_student]

(Original post by RJ555)
Just a few points:
I don't think you understand the legal system. A woman CANNOT rape a man. It is, I believe a failure of the legal system in that similar assaults against men receive a different title (sexual assault or assault via penetration). Whilst the potential sentences for these crimes are equivalent to rape, they are often (probably due to the naming) seen as being "lesser crimes".

Men who have been sexually assaulted, whilst not facing "blame" as such often face the presumption that "they are men, they were up for it anyway".

I don't think it has been mentioned in this thread but what about the harsher sentences men receive for committing identical crimes to women. Read about the Equal Treatment Bench Book which in a round a bout way actually recommended women be given lenient sentences. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...criminals.html Couple longer sentences with a shorter life expectancy and this is a devastating blow to men's rights.

With all of this I am not saying men have it harder, merely that men's rights are more unrepresented (going back to the original post in this thread and several throughout). I am merely trying to balance out peoples viewpoint from "men have it so easy because they don't have to give birth" to a fairer more insightful view. Because women are suffering injustices it seems feminists feel they have to brush mens issues under the carpet, rather than everyone coming together and addressing BOTH genders issues (which is why I am against feminism in its traditional form).

Some really good points, that's what the TedxLSE YT video was about - we say yes to females in a better position, yet ignore men. (Edit: BTW I responded to OriginalMindTrick in July when s/he said "I read studies from the cutting edge of biology and genetics" - so I gave him/her a 3 part answer (my gender psychology essay!) with research pdfs - but got no reply/studies ... getting deja vu, but I still inform/educate.)

The data to show that women receive lighter sentences is 'available' but it needs a FOI (freedom of info) request to get it i.e. data wise it is there but is not currently presented in the Groupings I require. I think asking BCS: for each crime, split the number of years sentenced by gender (as well as by age group within gender).
E.g. GBH = 200 prison sentences; 140 men averaged 3 years, 60 women averaged 2 years.
I am looking for "facts+how numbers recorded", does not matter if I am right/wrong - easier to understand/base arguments with relevant info.

True for women raping boys/paedophilia or killing their husband/children. Sentencing Discrepancies Between Male and Female Sex Offenders.
Facts are a bitch, aren’t they? has quality links! that put together your argument above as well as how some ideologists 'need rape' to make women perpetual victims for many reasons (have given b4).
Women sexualising, controlling discourse?:

I do like equality feminists like W Farrell (Myth of Male Power), E Pizzey.

[That Bearded Man]

(Original post by Lamps08)
The actual act isn't ballsy at all, there's nothing significant to lose. It's only really doubts that could hold you back. Obviously if you're really ugly things get tough ( I.e imsoacademic)

You could actually, what if asking her out offends her mate who fancied you, for instance.

[That Bearded Man]

(Original post by TheCurlyHairedDude)
Ballsy?

I've been talking to woman and getting numbers since I was 13, granted 99% of the time I approach a woman it's a rejection, but that's life. The guy who gets rejected the most gets the most girls. Same with sales, gotta get rejected loads before you get a yes!

I'm not referring to randomers on a night out - I mean a girl who you've fancied

[That Bearded Man]

(Original post by Philbert)
How often do you, personally have to deal with fights that can't be avoided by just talking it out? It's true that men are more often victims of violent crime, but what you describe sounds more like drunken brawls outside pubs, so correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

I can't really disagree with the pressure to be built, because I don't experience it and a lot of men (on this forum and others, for example) apparently do. However, none of the men I know feel this pressure and would rather do sports for fitness and enjoyment, so it makes me wonder where it comes from for some men. Is it comparable to the pressure to be attractive (read: slim, big boobs and arse, pretty) for women?


Extreme feminists? Again, when was the last time an "Extreme feminists" affected you in your daily life. Other women have to deal with them, too, since every time someone mentions feminism or sexism these days, they are accused of being "feminazis" and generally tarred with the same brush as those who hold extreme views. This achieves nothing for anyone, except perhaps a bit of smug superiority for some men.



Not really comparable, though, is it? Fifty shades of Grey doesn't have half-naked men on the cover, or indeed anywhere. You could read that book in public, or one with an equal amount of sexual content, and no-one would bat an eyelid (well, maybe for FS, because of it's popularity among women). Everyone knows what the book is about and it's only popular because everybody else is reading it, but not everybody wants to see tits in their face on their morning commute.

How exactly does not being able to read porn on the bus make life more difficult for men? (narrowly avoided saying "harder")

No you're right, it doesn't happen that often. I've never been in a proper fight, but I would view myself as being quite passive, therefore some others would experience it a lot more, and yes, I meant a pub brawl.

I'm not really that bothered by physique, but I know many who are. Probably not as bad as it is for women though.

And no, I haven't really bumped into any extremist feminists, except one who chained herself to our university spouting the biggest steaming pile of ****e.

[RandZul'Zorander]

I don't think it is fair to say that men have it 'easy' in life, however to say that women don't have it harder is just inaccurate. Whilst there are stereotypes and standards men are expected to have, women are disadvantaged in many more ways than men. Men have historically and still presently hold power, have used that power to denigrate, or oppress women.

[Dmon1Unlimited]

It's bullcrap to say men have it easy.

Both sexes have difficulties. Be it physical or social...

[TheCurlyHairedDude]

(Original post by That Bearded Man)
I'm not referring to randomers on a night out - I mean a girl who you've fancied

Well then it's even easier, you actually KNOW her, you've been spending time together (I should hope that's why you fancy her)....

Look I'm not going to say much more, if you can't ask a girl out on a date then you're not confident enough. I'm SOO glad I mixed with the bunch of guys I did when I was in school otherwise I'd be a social penguin

[Lamps08]

(Original post by That Bearded Man)
You could actually, what if asking her out offends her mate who fancied you, for instance.

Be more selfish man. It's when you over think things that they go wrong. If you have that thought in the back of your head, you won't ever ask her out.

[Blind Ferret]

Biologically Women have it harder, but for me as a Man it's getting harder socially.

I feel there has been an increased demand for Men to be more Androgynous. Which isn't bad, but they seem to be adopting feminine traits then trying to pass them off as Masculine traits. I refuse to buy into it. On a night out I'll see Men who look the same, all trying to pose as Men but really they're boys who go to the Gym purely to look good, tan themselves, shape their eyebrows, remove body hair and have the same haircut. Not to mention the tight t-shirts and Male cleavage. It creates a problem between us normal Men, as if we need to adapt to fit in. It seems that the Joey Essex, Geordie Shore male has become the desired form of Man, and in that respect I feel i've got it hard. I don't want to adapt to that but I also don't want to be out of the loop entirely.

I'm probably taking out of my ass but it's just how it seems at the minute.

[That Bearded Man]

(Original post by TheCurlyHairedDude)
Well then it's even easier, you actually KNOW her, you've been spending time together (I should hope that's why you fancy her)....

Look I'm not going to say much more, if you can't ask a girl out on a date then you're not confident enough. I'm SOO glad I mixed with the bunch of guys I did when I was in school otherwise I'd be a social penguin

I agree with you, that said I still takes an element of courage to do it, people should be overcoming it, otherwise they are lacking confidence, we differ in opinion just that I think people are nervous about it, so they need to have a bit of courage.

[That Bearded Man]

(Original post by Lamps08)
Be more selfish man. It's when you over think things that they go wrong. If you have that thought in the back of your head, you won't ever ask her out.

Well, you can understand why some people would wait to ask them out in private, over-thinking is part of nerves, that said a mate of mine did just that, he asked a girl out in front of her mate, the girl said no but they wanted to stay friends, whilst the girl that fancied him was offended and now he regrets it. So whilst overthinking is a problem, sometimes it does come in handy.