[Dinnes]

(Original post by RedDevilThing)
For the middle east and third world countries I'd probably agree with you, but in the western world I think the opposite is true. There is a large amount of discrimination against men that goes largely unnoticed.

Say a man hits a woman, in broad daylight. Several people will come to her rescue and proclaim the man to be a disgusting human being. If the roles are reversed it would attention but no-one would step in (except maybe to prevent the man from retaliating) and most people would say things like "You go girl!" under the assumption that the man must have done something to 'deserve' it.

Men are not allowed to sit next to children they don't know on some planes because men are often assumed to be paedophiles.

Women are not required to serve on the front line, they're not even allowed to serve on the front line. Men don't get the option to opt-out.

There are plenty, plenty more examples of this, here's some good videos about the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y9_oklmHvU

Anti-male sexism in educational institutions + plenty of examples of sexism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tT...eature=related

Yet more examples, I'd recommend watching several of her videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlFAd...eature=related

Proof of my first point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JA4EPRbWhQ

Women laughing at male mutilation + reaction. Excuse the language.

Tempted to agree with you there. Funnily enough I just remembered I made a thread on this a while back which is still bumbling round page 1 of the society forums somewhere.

[Jono404]

(Original post by NYU2012)
Gender pay inequalities are a known fact in western countries. Have you been living under a rock?

Yes, because they are an average that include women who have taken time out from their careers, or taken part time work, while they have children. A man and woman doing the same job, at the same company, with the same hours, will earn the same amount.

[rugbyladosc]

(Original post by JollyGreenAtheist)
Try wearing jeans with a hard on. Cry me a bloody river, ladies.

or pissing with morning glory?

[Dinnes]

(Original post by Jono404)
I'd rather study a subject that's not a ****ing joke, thanks.

Please can you not flame and start personal fights on this? I don't mind you doing in on private messaging but we're actually discussing something so it kind of devalues what everyone else is saying.

Thanks
Dan

[NYU2012]

(Original post by Jono404)
Yes, because they are an average that include women who have taken time out from their careers, or taken part time work, while they have children. A man and woman doing the same job, at the same company, with the same hours, will earn the same amount.

I repeat, are you living under a rock?

That is blatantly not true. Have you ever actually read the literature? There is tons of literature, easily accessible, in sociology that clearly demonstrates that this isn't true.

[jacketpotato]

I think women have it more difficult socially. There are more expectations about how women should look and act. For some reason some women are really nasty to other women, but men don't really do this - I don't know why.

[Plushie]

This whole thing is rather silly in my opinion. Saying an entire group of people have it easier than others just doesn't make any sense to me; some people will have easier lives than others. The gender is irrelevent. There is gender discrimination on boths sides.

It does however depend on what country you are from, I'd suppose. In some countries it can be particularly difficult for women, it can be quite difficult to pinpoint a culture in which men are at an extreme disadvantage. I know things aren't that easy for the men of Japan, actually, because they are expected to work ridiculously long hours, look after their wives, face all sorts of pressure regarding honour and respect and such. I think it's a similar situation in Korea.

Obviously in places women are not allowed an education, allowed to drive, can't read or write while their male counterparts will probably have more advantages; but all in all the situation is **** for everyone. It annoys me on the TV when they say 'even women and children were killed.' What the ****? Are the lives of men not worth as much? Are they less innocent?

I could complain about the way women are treated also. In the world there are many inequalities it's hard to measure. In the grand scheme of things, the women do the majority of the worlds work yet own the least amount of land. On a large scale when trying to be objective it seems like on the whole, women have it worse, but like I said it's a very difficult thing to measure.

As for individuals or people living in the UK, I think both genders can be equally disadvantaged in a lot of different ways, it really depends on the invidiual circumstances.

[kaypc]

if were talking overall, women have it harder but both sexes have their challenges.

[kunoichi]

(Original post by gagaslilmonsteruk)
Sexism is wrong no matter what gender the culprit is.

I never said it wasnt wrong, i just think some people, should maybe think about how their life could be and be grateful that the sexism displayed towards them in their lifes isnt to the degree it is in other places.

In the western world, sexism mostly seems to take the form of attitudes which people (often wrongly) seem to think the other gender has which tbh beyond annoying us doesnt really halt much in our lives. In less developed countries the sexism is a lot worse.

[Jono404]

(Original post by NYU2012)
I repeat, are you living under a rock?

That is blatantly not true. Have you ever actually read the literature? There is tons of literature, easily accessible, in sociology that clearly demonstrates that this isn't true.

"The literature"? I'm sorry a job that advertised "MEN - 26K P/A, WOMEN 22K P/A" would be completely illegal. You seem to be the one who is confused between a wage gap on an AVERAGE wage, and one that exists between a man and a woman doing the same job. The law has done all it can to end wage discrimination, the reason for the gap is because women choose not to work for long periods of time to focus on children, bringing the average wage down.

Please, study statistics.

[Dinnes]

(Original post by jacketpotato)
I think women have it more difficult socially. There are more expectations about how women should look and act. For some reason some women are really nasty to other women, but men don't really do this - I don't know why.

Interesting, yes, I think I'd agree with that. Also I've noticed that girls tend to be much more intimate with eachother, giving fashion advice on hair and outfits and stuff much more easily. I think guys generally find it harder to say "Oh you look really good in that outfit". I find it easier than most guys apparently but meh :P

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by NYU2012)
Men and women with the same position, often make discrepant amounts.

Have you got any evidence of men and women who both have exactly the same amount of qualifications and do exactly the amount of work and type of work (e.g both are cashiers) and exact amount of work experience and have had exact amount of sickleaves/absentees and also exact amount of overtime and are of the exact same age? You probably won't find such evidence because there rarely exists such similar people. So unless you can erase all these factors, it's a pointless statement.

If 50% of the population is female, and 50% is male; why is there a gender divide?

Because of gender stereotypes. This doesn't show it's harder though or that if a women doesn't accept the gender stereotypes and wants to go into men-dominated careers, they can't. Just like 76% of the NBA are African-American, no one believes that non-African America can't enter the NBA if they wish. If you're using the fact that there's gender stereotypes as evidence of women having it harder than one could easily turn it around and say that the reason why men are also overrepresented and underrepresented in nursing and irk is because of gender stereotypes.

Economic coercion?

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong it going into a profession for money; I'm merely calling attention to the fact that a number of women revert to prostitution because they pay is more significant than other jobs available to them.

Again, go read all of the sociological literature.

Why can this not apply to men then? Because I'm sure single fathers go into job that can sustain their lifestyles. Heck, economic coercion can apply to pretty much the vast majority of the population considering "work or die".

[Luxray]

Men definitely don't have it easy, there's as many social constructs for men as there are for women. Men have to act 'tough', not be emotionally unstable, women like men to be taller than them so if you are like 5 ft 4 then life can be difficult for you, i think the suicide rate for adult men is higher as well so that must definitely say something.

[NYU2012]

(Original post by Jono404)
"The literature"? I'm sorry a job that advertised "MEN - 26K P/A, WOMEN 22K P/A" would be completely illegal. You seem to be the one who is confused between a wage gap on an AVERAGE wage, and one that exists between a man and a woman doing the same job. The law has done all it can to end wage discrimination, the reason for the gap is because women choose not to work for long periods of time to focus on children, bringing the average wage down.

Please, study statistics.

Please, go actually read the literature and stop pretending you know what you're talking about.

I'm sorry that you're completely unaware of the fact that pay discrimination does happen, regardless of whether or not it should.

I'm sorry that you're completely unaware of the fact that men and women, doing the exact same job do get paid unequal amounts.

[Dinnes]

(Original post by Plushie)
This whole thing is rather silly in my opinion. Saying an entire group of people have it easier than others just doesn't make any sense to me; some people will have easier lives than others. The gender is irrelevent. There is gender discrimination on boths sides.

It does however depend on what country you are from, I'd suppose. In some countries it can be particularly difficult for women, it can be quite difficult to pinpoint a culture in which men are at an extreme disadvantage. I know things aren't that easy for the men of Japan, actually, because they are expected to work ridiculously long hours, look after their wives, face all sorts of pressure regarding honour and respect and such. I think it's a similar situation in Korea.

Obviously in places women are not allowed an education, allowed to drive, can't read or write while their male counterparts will probably have more advantages; but all in all the situation is **** for everyone. It annoys me on the TV when they say 'even women and children were killed.' What the ****? Are the lives of men not worth as much? Are they less innocent?

I could complain about the way women are treated also. In the world there are many inequalities it's hard to measure. In the grand scheme of things, the women do the majority of the worlds work yet own the least amount of land. On a large scale when trying to be objective it seems like on the whole, women have it worse, but like I said it's a very difficult thing to measure.

As for individuals or people living in the UK, I think both genders can be equally disadvantaged in a lot of different ways, it really depends on the invidiual circumstances.

The women and children thing also really annoys me too. It's just outright sexism.

The point I'm making is that, yes, people have it easier or harder (genetics for instance) because of other things, but I was highlighting gender specific issues as they are much easier to say without having to make comments like "Ugly people struggle in life" which are completely unsubstantiated

But yes I agree with most of that and of course in reality it's about the individual.

[Jono404]

(Original post by NYU2012)
I'm sorry that you're completely unaware of the fact that men and women, doing the exact same job do get paid unequal amounts.

If you can find me an article about this happening, in this country or the US, within the last say, 20 years, you win a shiny penny. I'm talking same job title, same company, not just "a female lawyer earns X a male lawyer earns Y" because there are too many variables to take into consideration.

[PurpleEyes]

If anyone is actually interested in 'reading the literature' I would suggest starting off with 'The Beauty Myth' by Naomi Wolf. Whilst I don't necessarily agree with all of her views, the text is both accessible and convincingly written with reference to several well-researched case studies that illustrate inequality between the sexes in Western society.

[Logi]

(Original post by NYU2012)
Have you ever actually read the literature? There is tons of literature, easily accessible, in sociology that clearly demonstrates that this isn't true.

Then source it. Arrogantly pronouncing that people are "uneducated" and should "go read" isn't doing a whole lot for the discussion. You're just coming across as aggressive, arrogant and unable to make any point that doesn't boil down to "I know better and you're wrong".

[NYU2012]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Have you got any evidence of men and women who both have exactly the same amount of qualifications and do exactly the amount of work and type of work (e.g both are cashiers) and exact amount of work experience and have had exact amount of sickleaves/absentees and also exact amount of overtime and are of the exact same age? You probably won't find such evidence because there rarely exists such similar people. So unless you can erase all these factors, it's a pointless statement.

Yes, such evidence does exist.

It's available in the literature.

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Because of gender stereotypes. This doesn't show it's harder though or that if a women doesn't accept the gender stereotypes and wants to go into men-dominated careers, they can't. Just like 76% of the NBA are African-American, no one believes that non-African America can't enter the NBA if they wish. If you're using the fact that there's gender stereotypes as evidence of women having it harder than one could easily turn it around and say that the reason why men are also overrepresented and underrepresented in nursing and irk is because of gender stereotypes.

Yes, it is all because of gender stereotypes. And yes, those gender stereotypes do make it more difficult for women to climb to top positions -- predominantly because business is assumed to be a masculine realm.

And yes, gender stereotypes work both ways. However there is a different type of happening based on the gender stereotypes in the case of men and women.

In the case of women in business, they are trying to enter a male-dominated, gendered environment; where stereotypically womanly gender traits are 'undesirable'.

In the case of men trying to be nurses, the same isn't true.

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Why can this not apply to men then? Because I'm sure single fathers go into job that can sustain their lifestyles. Heck, economic coercion can apply to pretty much the vast majority of the population considering "work or die".

I'm sure there are; but due to a number of gender factors, stereotypes, etc. women, often single parents, are economically coerced into prostitution.

I'll note I'm all for the legalization of prostitution; but I'll also recognize that women are, in some cases, coerced into the profession due to a need support themselves and their child, when there are no other alternatives.

[Dinnes]

(Original post by Logi)
Then source it. Arrogantly pronouncing that people are "uneducated" and should "go read" isn't doing a whole lot for the discussion. You're just coming across as aggressive, arrogant and unable to make any point that doesn't boil down to "I know better and you're wrong".

Thank you. What I wanted to say but being OP it isn't my place to take sides.

Dan