[moonkatt]

(Original post by NB_ide)
The older I get, and the more I personally age, the less willing I am to create any more minds to "suffer" similarly. They're perfectly content in oblivion right now and to tear them from that peace and put them into this cold world is the height of cruelty.

I notice it more than many people because a lot of my hobbies and pursuits during my youth until now (late 20's) were those that challenged the limits of my physical and/or mental capabilities. When you often go to that point, you become very aware of how you're decaying basically as soon as puberty ends. Watching your brain and body just rot with you trapped inside is no fun at all, and it must get really terrible in 10 or 20 more years. I don't think the transient and usually unnoticed/unappreciated joys of childhood and youth are worth the 60 years of trudging misery that follow.

Well you're an absolute ray of sunshine aren't you.

[special1ne]

You don't have to be one to see that there's often more to having a child than it being 'the right time' or whatever tosh couples splurt out of each other's mouths before creating a life. It's just the selfish part is never asked of, or looked into greatly.

It's not like, when two people decide to have a kid, they go "Oh, and this kid we're having will mean we're not alone... oh, and it'll keep us together... and let's not forget they'll be a great help once we hit 65," is it?

[chockypud]

So people have babies for selfish reasons. So what. Human beings are selfish anyway. If you asked anyone why they had a kid, they're more than likely to give a selfish reason, but they'll make it look like they've got the child in mind. It's not exactly lying, but pretense, to appear more selfless than they actually are. Face it, no one wants to be reminded that they really brought a baby into the world to make their own lives better. If parents admit that, others judge them negatively (and rightly so, perhaps, but it's their life), which they don't want. Cognitive dissonance reduction springs to mind.
Actually, if you asked anyone why they had kids, nowadays they'll either take it personally and be offended, or say "it felt right". In effect, they dodge the question, for reasons I mentioned above.

Don't ask your own mum, you'll get a slap.

[special1ne]

(Original post by chockypud)
So people have babies for selfish reasons. So what. Human beings are selfish anyway. If you asked anyone why they had a kid, they're more than likely to give a selfish reason, but they'll make it look like they've got the child in mind. It's not exactly lying, but pretense, to appear more selfless than they actually are. Face it, no one wants to be reminded that they really brought a baby into the world to make their own lives better. If parents admit that, others judge them negatively (and rightly so, perhaps, but it's their life), which they don't want. Cognitive dissonance reduction springs to mind.
Actually, if you asked anyone why they had kids, nowadays they'll either take it personally and be offended, or say "it felt right". In effect, they dodge the question, for reasons I mentioned above.

Don't ask your own mum, you'll get a slap.

I don't intend to

It's a sensitive topic to talk about with mothers and fathers. It's easy for someone to take it as questioning their judgement or how they live their life. You're right, no one wants that, at the end of the day. So no one asks, babies are born, and it's no one's business whether the parents had their kids for selfish reasons or not. (For liberal countries, this applies until the point when other people's taxes pay for the welfare of kids they don't want).

[badcheesecrispy]

(Original post by moonkatt)
Well you're an absolute ray of sunshine aren't you.

what he said is perfectly correct, im also in my mid late 20s and the bit about 'watching your body decay before your eyes' is bang on

i do have a child but you do sometimes think- this is a **** world, full of evil, and this innocent being has no idea whats to come 20 years down the line

life doesnt get easier as you get older, it gets much harder

[badcheesecrispy]

(Original post by chockypud)
So people have babies for selfish reasons. So what. Human beings are selfish anyway. If you asked anyone why they had a kid, they're more than likely to give a selfish reason, but they'll make it look like they've got the child in mind. It's not exactly lying, but pretense, to appear more selfless than they actually are. Face it, no one wants to be reminded that they really brought a baby into the world to make their own lives better. If parents admit that, others judge them negatively (and rightly so, perhaps, but it's their life), which they don't want. Cognitive dissonance reduction springs to mind.
Actually, if you asked anyone why they had kids, nowadays they'll either take it personally and be offended, or say "it felt right". In effect, they dodge the question, for reasons I mentioned above.

Don't ask your own mum, you'll get a slap.

i know a woman whos mid late 20s whos first child is 7 and referred to him as her 'life saver' on facebook on his birthday

she was 19 20 when she had him, boyfriend spent whole pregnancy in prison then they split soon after- life saver screams to me of i had this kid to improve my own life which is selfish to me

theres now a young boy whos never known his dad and whos mum has had another child with a man she also is no longer with- and who took the boy on as his own for a while

i feel sorry for kids these days as barely any have a stable family unit anymore

[badcheesecrispy]

(Original post by special1ne)
I don't intend to

It's a sensitive topic to talk about with mothers and fathers. It's easy for someone to take it as questioning their judgement or how they live their life. You're right, no one wants that, at the end of the day. So no one asks, babies are born, and it's no one's business whether the parents had their kids for selfish reasons or not. (For liberal countries, this applies until the point when other people's taxes pay for the welfare of kids they don't want).

if society made it more others business there would be less kids around with no dad, no stable family unit and siblings conceived from numerous sperm donors

it disgusts me to see so many people having children often not in a relationship or in an unstable one- the amount of people not giving a **** and cheating when they've just had a child, and the genuine destruction of childrens families and security across the country

and i agree it goes on more because of the amount of benefits single mothers get

[Sheldor]

I think lots of people have kids because they feel an obligation too; their married, one box ticked, they gave a house, next box ticked, kids, next box ticked. When I say I don't want to have kids, people are horrified and ask me what I'll do with my life. I think for many, they can't envision a possible path of life without children


This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad Ap

[sucess]

(Original post by NB_ide)
All reasons for having children are either:

A) Mindless
> It's the normal thing to do
> I want to have lots of sex and, oops, I got pregnant
> It was an accident and I don't want to get rid of it

B) Selfish
> I want to keep up with my friends
> I'm bored and my life is empty now, I need something to do
> I want people to look after me when I get old
> I want to use the child to attract state benefits
> I want to raise the little ****ers to make up for my own failures in life

There is honestly no conceivable selfless/generous reason to have children. The closest would be to indulge someone else's selfishness, such as giving some grandchildren to your parents.

thats not selfish at all

thats nature

[K the Failure]

Because genes are tenacious bastards.

[special1ne]

(Original post by badcheesecrispy;38821277[B)
]if society made it more others business there would be less kids around with no dad, no stable family unit and siblings conceived from numerous sperm donors[/B]

it disgusts me to see so many people having children often not in a relationship or in an unstable one- the amount of people not giving a **** and cheating when they've just had a child, and the genuine destruction of childrens families and security across the country

and i agree it goes on more because of the amount of benefits single mothers get

That's what I hoped was understood by my last post. Even though we all know most children are not raised in unstable or financially insecure homes (at least in the UK, but in certain areas it's a major issue), it's still not nice to know that unplanned pregnancies and lack of preparation for having children happens in modern society.

The fact that couples and single parents sometimes use their children for their own gain proves two things. First, is that people are inherently selfish and at times do anything to get what they want. Second, is that marriages, relationships and parenthood are all incredibly difficult things to get right and losing track of what comes first - the children - is the natural response. After all, to err is human.
Again, the above relates to when the children are already there. Often, childless couples feel raising a child will be the ultimate sign of their union together and everlasting love, the operative verb being 'feel'. If reason came before feelings, with statements like:

"We love each other enough not to need to bring a child in between us" or

"Our relationship and love for one another will be put to the test for the rest of our lives. Maybe neither will survive if we have a kid"

then it would save society (especially the social services) a lot of hassle with looking after children for the unprepared parents.

[NB_ide]

(Original post by sucess)
thats not selfish at all

Can you explain? It's so obviously selfish that I can't think of how to explain it.

thats nature

Yes it is "natural"

[somethingbeautiful]

(Original post by moonkatt)
Well you're an absolute ray of sunshine aren't you.

They have a point though, regardless of whether or not it makes for a nice read.

[special1ne]

(Original post by NB_ide)
Can you explain? It's so obviously selfish that I can't think of how to explain it.

x

Yes it is "natural"

I reckon sucess conflates (or confuses, I don't know) 'natural' with 'not unreasonable'.

But say if being assisted to survive (or being looked after, whichever) was human nature. Further than that, let's say the desire to be looked after or assisted to survive was human nature. That desire still allows those parents who expect to be waited on hand and foot get away with murder, so to speak.

Now it's unsafe to assume the vast majority of parents act on this impulse at some point in their parenthood. Really, we can't measure it. But is it really unreasonable to, for example, hold the couples inadequately prepared for childbearing to account? Especially if you're paying for it e.g. single mothers who abuse the British benefits system, a sign of the 'kids having kids' problem The Jeremy Kyle Show attempts to tackle (with varying results and an apparently entertaining TV programme to show for it).

What I'm saying is that it's a couple's right to decide what's right for them, even if "to have a baby" is assumed in a literal sense. But those couples shouldn't go crying to anyone if their children don't help them out in old age, or if their children turn out to be a handful to raise, or if their children disappoint them later in life (e.g. by their choice of partner, not getting a job, not being a straight-A student at school).

P.S. To be fair, parenthood is a process which evolves over time, and parents (in theory) learn to be better as they go along. Rarely is anyone ever fully prepared for what comes with having a child from day one. I only mean to say that if any parts of having a child of your own discomfort you, think twice.

[damilola]

I'm really scared of having children now, the civilised world gets more and more morally decrepit everyday and bringing more innocent lives into the world to live in say... 17years, without being able to protect them and having no control over what they are exposed to, scares me s***less. I wanted to have children just so that i could love someone without reserve and have them love me back and be able to just shower them with everything i wish i had as a child, thinking about it now, i wanted to OWN someone. But the way things are going, it's going to be really hard to bring kids up the right way in a few years.

I'd get a dog but i'm scared of dogs Life....

[special1ne]

In late- or post-modern societies, we're all bombarded by the wide range of lifestyle choices and identities we have at our fingertips, all there to make our time on this planet just that little bit better. Maybe having a baby is nothing more than a lifestyle choice nowadays, and there is no consideration for anyone or anything other than the couple that makes the choice. It would mean no proper thought goes into creating a life other than how it benefits a couple, or what parenthood says about them and how it influences their identities.

For the most part, there is no fully developed, logical and non-selfish reason to have a baby. As it happens, we do society and the wider world a favour by opting to stay childless, as long as overpopulation and the postcode lottery (among other things) remain a major issue to deal with.

[chockypud]

(Original post by special1ne)
In late- or post-modern societies, we're all bombarded by the wide range of lifestyle choices and identities we have at our fingertips, all there to make our time on this planet just that little bit better. Maybe having a baby is nothing more than a lifestyle choice nowadays, and there is no consideration for anyone or anything other than the couple that makes the choice. It would mean no proper thought goes into creating a life other than how it benefits a couple, or what parenthood says about them and how it influences their identities.

For the most part, there is no fully developed, logical and non-selfish reason to have a baby. As it happens, we do society and the wider world a favour by opting to stay childless, as long as overpopulation and the postcode lottery (among other things) remain a major issue to deal with.

So couples think of themselves when having children. So what, big surprise. There IS no answer to why couples have kids that doesn't include them thinking about their own satisfaction.

"Human beings are selfish."
People have kids for their own gain."
Having kids is selfish."

That syllogism should make things clearer. True as it may be, it's just accepted in society. When we decide to have babies, the logical/rational part of our brain often takes a backseat. If it stayed "on", nobody would need children.

Most people just have the bloody kids and get on with their lives, a little happier along the way. Having kids addresses their needs, however selfish, so you can't blame 'em, can you? We're not all rational thinkers every waking minute of our lives. To be honest, I don't think you can get any further on this discussion, mate.

[badcheesecrispy]

(Original post by Sheldor)
I think lots of people have kids because they feel an obligation too; their married, one box ticked, they gave a house, next box ticked, kids, next box ticked. When I say I don't want to have kids, people are horrified and ask me what I'll do with my life. I think for many, they can't envision a possible path of life without children


This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad Ap

this just shows how little so many people have in their lives, that they would presume one has nothing else to do and no other purpose in life than to breed

[badcheesecrispy]

(Original post by special1ne)
I reckon sucess conflates (or confuses, I don't know) 'natural' with 'not unreasonable'.

But say if being assisted to survive (or being looked after, whichever) was human nature. Further than that, let's say the desire to be looked after or assisted to survive was human nature. That desire still allows those parents who expect to be waited on hand and foot get away with murder, so to speak.

Now it's unsafe to assume the vast majority of parents act on this impulse at some point in their parenthood. Really, we can't measure it. But is it really unreasonable to, for example, hold the couples inadequately prepared for childbearing to account? Especially if you're paying for it e.g. single mothers who abuse the British benefits system, a sign of the 'kids having kids' problem The Jeremy Kyle Show attempts to tackle (with varying results and an apparently entertaining TV programme to show for it).

What I'm saying is that it's a couple's right to decide what's right for them, even if "to have a baby" is assumed in a literal sense. But those couples shouldn't go crying to anyone if their children don't help them out in old age, or if their children turn out to be a handful to raise, or if their children disappoint them later in life (e.g. by their choice of partner, not getting a job, not being a straight-A student at school).

P.S. To be fair, parenthood is a process which evolves over time, and parents (in theory) learn to be better as they go along. Rarely is anyone ever fully prepared for what comes with having a child from day one. I only mean to say that if any parts of having a child of your own discomfort you, think twice.

i think part of it is people are often lead by emotion, a baby is seen as a beautiful thing, innocent, cute, a blank canvas, as are kids

people always presume that cute baby will grow up to be an upstanding member of society and achieve in their life, but does that honestly happen all the time?

people like ian huntley, ian brady and other sickos were once cute infants

the fact is many peoples kids grow up to be not only a drain on society as children but a drain when they grow up, kids turn to crime, drugs, murder

every sick bastard on the planet was once a baby, and I think some people need to get their head out of the clouds when they presume their numerous children are all going to bring something positive to society, more often than not they dont

it might be not very nice to hear and most parents would not be happy if asked what theyd think if their ray of sunshine grew up into the next levi bellfield, but its called reality

do you think there is more criminals and nastys in the world than nice, decent, kind, hardworking folk? I do.

[No Man]

(Original post by khaiser turian)
Surely the main reason for having children is to carry on the human race, the basic instinct of all living things

That would make sense if the world had 3+ billion less people, so that the human race could continue developing and utilizing resources at a sustainable rate.