[FrigidSymphony]

I posted something similar in another thread. To kill your own daughter is such an extreme perversion of human empathy that it can only be accomplished if accompanied by a belief in transcendental morality, that something beyond humanity is more important for ethics. In other words, religious morality.

[Raheem786]

I'm really sad that they weren't jailed or put on trial a lot sooner. How can someone make the decision to kill their own daughter for being too "Western". It's absolutely outrageous.


This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

[Venomilys]

I want to have a personal e-word with the husband, just to see how he justifies it and if it was at all worth it for his cause.

[ConnorB]

I can't understand this banal logic

Mother: Our Daughter is a disgrace! dying her hair, texting boyfriends... let's kill her to rid her of our shame!

just...
how.....

hope she rots in jail.

[bmqib]

pakistanis...

[bmqib]

(Original post by FrigidSymphony)
I posted something similar in another thread. To kill your own daughter is such an extreme perversion of human empathy that it can only be accomplished if accompanied by a belief in transcendental morality, that something beyond humanity is more important for ethics. In other words, religious morality.

you sound like you understand only half of what you type

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by sotrulybeautiful)
You are bringing Hindu and Indian culture into it when it's not even relevant just because you're assuming Indian-chinese food is Indian which he is not. What do you have against India/Hindus? What did we do to you? Indian culture reflects Hinduism as much as Pakistani culture reflects Islam. You don't need to drag another person's religions/beliefs into it to defend your own. Honour killings do not occur among Indians in the West as much as they occur with Pakistanis or middle eastern people. It's a cultural thing as obviously there is a large proportion of Muslims in India.

It really annoys me when Pakistani people put down India for no reason other than it makes you feel good or it's the thing to do. I don't know if you're Pakistani but this is the one thing i don't like despite me having many Pakistani friends. I noticed this in another 2 threads which were about Indian girls and some Pakistani guys had to say Indian girls are ugly or less attractive. Is that very Islamic? You know Indian Muslim women exist in India like Sania Mirza. And who married her? A Pakistani Muslim so she can't be that unappealing.

Nah, he does have a connection to Indians/Hindu's. Only someone like that could find a no-name Indian historian, who Wiki doesn't even have a page for, to use desperately in an argument lol. HE also got pretty agitated whenever I said anything about idolatry (so I suppose he could be a Buddhist). And just so you know, I have nothing against pakistan or india.

And again, read the context of my post, see the point that I am trying to make. If english isn't your first language, I apologise, but it's not that hard. And you keep going on about Hindu's/Indians, when the main aspect of my post was to do with the Bible/Christianity (bible verses, guardian link to a CHRISTIAN honor killing). Guess I hit a nerve by simply mentioning "india".

(Original post by Dee Leigh)
Yes, but some of these people stupidly choose to put their own kids through the harsh treatment that they themselves escaped from.

Hypocritical and such a contradiction, no?

Not really, the harsh treatment usually starts when the kid goes off the rails. I mean, do you have any evidence you can show me that Shafilea's parents were always like this? If they were, then that's a long time to go without any outsider noticing. It's obviously the parents fault as well for not bringing their kids up right.

(Original post by Dee Leigh)
How would YOU feel if your PARENTS tried to kill you in the name of 'honour' and Islam?

That's like asking what if your parents kill you in the name of "western culture" or being too much of a "slut", how would you feel? Killing your own kin for any reason would be bad.

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
noone considers the quran a source of historical information lol,

Only you don't. Probably due to not being able to read well in any language, you don't know things like the Vedas, the bible and other scriptures are used to understand the historical context of their time.

You also nicely ignored hadith narrations. No one till this date (apart from westerners doing it sometimes whenever they can) have used a more advanced method of verifying a historical narration, be it a book, or a writing on a wall or anything, than the Muslims did with Hadith sciences.

---

From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. "Traditional science", as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth. - Bernard Lewis, Islam In History (Open Court Publishing, 1993), pp.104-105

---

^so to reject hadith is to reject most of history, which is based on narratives. You wouldn't even believe any of the ancient indians, or Alexander or anyone like that existed.

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
or for that matter a book of science fyi.

Really@? That's news to me, I almost thought the Qur'an was a science book, rather than a guidance for mankind.

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
The quran also talks about the first man being created from soil and mud, which is not a historical fact either.

Actually, it says dust, which is correct. And for Mud, it's talking about where clay comes from. And Adam(pbuh) is uniquely considered to have been moulded from clay, as a statue and then after a few years, life breathed into him, and put on on Earth.

In simple laymen terms for you, the Creation of Adam is different to the creation of his progeny

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Apart from the various non-asian muslim convicts charged with honour killings in this country, various countries giverned by islamic law also regualry suffer from honour killings throughout society.

You lost me at "various countries giverned by islamic law" - No country is governed by Islamic law.

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
So we know islam has done nothing to surpress violence against women, apart from making up stories about saving women being buried. islamic text also jsutify men beating women in their family as confirmed by various transaltion of hadeeth - see below

Lmao, if you say so. Can't even spell translation correct, guess it will be beyond you to learning about things like linguistics and context.

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
. We also know Aisha Aisha narrated that moahmmed would hit her when he deemd she was disobedient

Can't even spell Muhammad(pbuh) right. And how did you possibly miss this, said by Aisha(ra) herself?

---

Aaishah (Radhiallahu 'Anha) said: "Allaah's Messenger (Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam) never hit anything with his hand ever, except when fighting in the path of Allaah. Nor did he ever hit a servant or a woman." [Recorded by Ibn Maajah. Al-Albaanee graded it as Saheeh.]

---

You know what, it's Ramadan and you're just not worth wasting my time on (even if it is for lulz). This post is just beyond stupidity, the amount of times you've lied in this post alone.

[At peace]

(Original post by Dee Leigh)
Don't want to derail the thread but why is your hatred for your culture increasing, apart from the case of Shafilea?

YOu are right. This thread should be derailed with other topics, it has though. I find it a lil offensive to Shafiae's memory.

'Cos it sucks, opposes Islam, limits my freedom, takes away my rights and gives my religion a bad name (as they do it in the name of Islam). Last but not the least there is no benefit in following it anyway.

[Dee Leigh]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Not really, the harsh treatment usually starts when the kid goes off the rails. I mean, do you have any evidence you can show me that Shafilea's parents were always like this? If they were, then that's a long time to go without any outsider noticing. It's obviously the parents fault as well for not bringing their kids up right.

That's like asking what if your parents kill you in the name of "western culture" or being too much of a "slut", how would you feel? Killing your own kin for any reason would be bad.

How do you know Shafilea Ahmed was going off the rails?

Yes she was wearing Western clothing. Yes she wanted a career and education instead of a forced marriage and a life of being a subservient wife. Yes she may have been doing other 'Western' things - wearing makeup, watching English TV, being friends with boys, socialising with friends, shopping etc etc etc, but that doesn't mean she was going off the rails. Also, being Westernised doesn't mean she deserved to be abused and killed.

[krishan369]

(Original post by hughcapet)
Personally I've never heard of a Hindu or Christian honour killing in a South Asian family in the UK, but I think the culture is still there, though not to the extent as some Muslim families.

I know a white British woman who used to date a British Hindu, but his parents were against the relationship because of the woman's heritage and they pestered and harangued their son until he broke up her. Whether this was because of my friend's ethnicity or the fact that she was a non-Hindu I'm not sure...

Pestering your son to marry someone of the same faith isnt uncommon anywhere... and it's far far far different to actually killing someone for that reason.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Nah, he does have a connection to Indians/Hindu's. Only someone like that could find a no-name Indian historian, who Wiki doesn't even have a page for, to use desperately in an argument lol. HE also got pretty agitated whenever I said anything about idolatry (so I suppose he could be a Buddhist). And just so you know, I have nothing against pakistan or india.

And again, read the context of my post, see the point that I am trying to make. If english isn't your first language, I apologise, but it's not that hard. And you keep going on about Hindu's/Indians, when the main aspect of my post was to do with the Bible/Christianity (bible verses, guardian link to a CHRISTIAN honor killing). Guess I hit a nerve by simply mentioning "india".



Not really, the harsh treatment usually starts when the kid goes off the rails. I mean, do you have any evidence you can show me that Shafilea's parents were always like this? If they were, then that's a long time to go without any outsider noticing. It's obviously the parents fault as well for not bringing their kids up right.



That's like asking what if your parents kill you in the name of "western culture" or being too much of a "slut", how would you feel? Killing your own kin for any reason would be bad.



Only you don't. Probably due to not being able to read well in any language, you don't know things like the Vedas, the bible and other scriptures are used to understand the historical context of their time.

You also nicely ignored hadith narrations. No one till this date (apart from westerners doing it sometimes whenever they can) have used a more advanced method of verifying a historical narration, be it a book, or a writing on a wall or anything, than the Muslims did with Hadith sciences.

---

From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. "Traditional science", as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth. - Bernard Lewis, Islam In History (Open Court Publishing, 1993), pp.104-105

---

^so to reject hadith is to reject most of history, which is based on narratives. You wouldn't even believe any of the ancient indians, or Alexander or anyone like that existed.



Really@? That's news to me, I almost thought the Qur'an was a science book, rather than a guidance for mankind.



Actually, it says dust, which is correct. And for Mud, it's talking about where clay comes from. And Adam(pbuh) is uniquely considered to have been moulded from clay, as a statue and then after a few years, life breathed into him, and put on on Earth.

In simple laymen terms for you, the Creation of Adam is different to the creation of his progeny



You lost me at "various countries giverned by islamic law" - No country is governed by Islamic law.



Lmao, if you say so. Can't even spell translation correct, guess it will be beyond you to learning about things like linguistics and context.



Can't even spell Muhammad(pbuh) right. And how did you possibly miss this, said by Aisha(ra) herself?

---

Aaishah (Radhiallahu 'Anha) said: "Allaah's Messenger (Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam) never hit anything with his hand ever, except when fighting in the path of Allaah. Nor did he ever hit a servant or a woman." [Recorded by Ibn Maajah. Al-Albaanee graded it as Saheeh.]

---

You know what, it's Ramadan and you're just not worth wasting my time on (even if it is for lulz). This post is just beyond stupidity, the amount of times you've lied in this post alone.

nice excercise there in doging the points raised but perfectly demonstrates your inability to win an argument.
you failed to deny the facts ( becuase they cant be) that islamic hadith allows for beating of female family members and that aisha herself narrated she was hit by mohammed for being disobidient as they are all on record in black and white - so you posting a contradicting comment makes no sense except to query her reliability. Muslim fathers can refer to the actions of mohammed as prescedent.
and LOLs at your adam coming from mud/dirt comment as 'historical'

[Rat_Bag]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Yes.

There's nothing in Islam that would allow Honor Killing or anyone to ever even get the idea. In fact, before Islam came, this practice existed (they would bury their daughters alive as they were deemed to be a "shame") and it was Islam that completely nullified it.

See, this is where you are very very naive. Islam, with all of its obsession with female purity, sexuality, notions of honour, and a revulsion of non-conformity, is exactly what drives people, like these parents, to do such a thing. The apologists of Islam will find it hard to accept this, but that doesn't change the facts. It's just how apologists for the EDL hide behind semantics and the mantra that they "don't have people, just hate beliefs". Fact is, the climate they nurture leads to hate crimes, just as the climate Islam nurtures leads to honour crimes. You cannot deny this.

(Original post by Perseveranze)
In truth, if it wasn't for Islam, the situation would've probably been a lot worst.

This seems very improbable. What is your rationale for believing this?

(Original post by Perseveranze)
If you want to see direct honor killings in scripture, then there's nothing more clearer than;

“And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. (Exodus 21:17)”

“For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. (Leviticus 20:9)”

True, but these sorts of bloodthirsty words found just as abundantly in the Qur'an as the Bible.

(Original post by Perseveranze)
And here's a Christian honor case killing - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/23/israel

But no one is going to say this has anything to do with Christianity (despite it being in the bible).

There are calls for death in the Qur'an as well as the Bible. But when the Qur'an orders killing, you say it is only in the context of an Islamic state. Why are you inconsistent when it comes to Christianity?

(Original post by Perseveranze)
With Islam, there's nothing there, rather all evidence points against it, but due to people's Islamophobia, they're quick to blame the religion.

Oh dear

[Rat_Bag]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
I'm talking about Hindu's and Indians and Christians, because I'm showing you how often it happens in these cultures, yet no one seems to want to blame their religion (even though it's so explicit in Christianity).

It's just as explicit in Islam as it is in Christianity.

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Considering the Qur'an is the only source of historical information of that time (like the Bible is for its time), every historian accepts this happened.

No they don't. The Qur'an is not a reliable source to draw a conclusion on in this matter. Any historian that draws on the Qur'an to analyse Arab pagan society is as retarded as those that draw on Fox news to analyse modern Arab society. The Quran's objective was to denigrate every facet of Arab Pagan society, just as Fox News' objective is to denigrate every facet of modern Arab society. Can you not see that?

The book wouldn't talk about it randomly if didn't happen.

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Not to mention, it's within hadith narratives as well. And to reject that, is to reject most of history (based on narratives).

But they are no reliable sources on this matter.

(Original post by Perseveranze)
In other words, apart from it happening in the 21st century in your messed up Hindu/Indian culture, everyone would deny it ever happened back in history if we were to deny it ever happening in 7th century Arabia based on far stronger evidences than in other narratives.

What exactly are these "far stronger evidences"?

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Apart from the fact that, based on the conditions laid down by Islam, it's literally impossible to ever take place.

If it is literally impossible to take place (and that means, in the absolute sense), then why make a law and prescribed punishment out of it?

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Nothing to do with Islam.

Everything to do with the type of mindset and culture that Islam nurtures.

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Uh, go on, post it, let's embarrass you more. Let's see these "legalised sanctioned beatings in Islam".

Not half as embarrassing as the whole toothbrush tapping stuff

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by Dee Leigh)
How do you know Shafilea Ahmed was going off the rails?

Sleeping around with random boys, wearing immodest clothes etc. is going off the rails. But can't really judge, since I don't know her life in detail. It's just best to say whatever sin she was committing, may God forgive her.

Anyways, I'm just giving you the general idea, that parent's usually don't randomly turn harsh unless their kids go off the rails.

Like if your child does something wrong, your not really going to keep being kind and gentle to him, like most parent's, you'll dish out "discipline". Obviously, in some cases, parents go too far (such as the Shafilea case), but there is a cause and effect.

(Original post by Dee Leigh)
Yes she was wearing Western clothing. Yes she wanted a career and education instead of a forced marriage and a life of being a subservient wife. Yes she may have been doing other 'Western' things - wearing makeup, watching English TV, being friends with boys, socialising with friends, shopping etc etc etc, but that doesn't mean she was going off the rails. Also, being Westernised doesn't mean she deserved to be abused and killed.

How stereotypical. Yes, she went off the rails, there's no debate about this. I'm pretty sure if she was into prostitution you would've said "that's normal, nothing wrong with that", since your morals are dependant on ever changing social norms.

I blame the parents for not teaching their children. But then again, the parents didn't learn much themselves either. So I guess we can blame the Pakistan education system

But regardless of going off the rails or not, I agree that it's not an excuse to kill the person. Nothing really is. There are better, more civil ways to bring them back on course, and unfortunatly, Shafilea's parents didn't exercise them.

[FrigidSymphony]

I wonder if Perseveranze realizes that he contributes more to feelings of antagonism towards Islam on these boards than anyone else does.

[sotrulybeautiful]

(Original post by FrigidSymphony)
I wonder if Perseveranze realizes that he contributes more to feelings of antagonism towards Islam on these boards than anyone else does.

I don't know if he does or if he does he even cares about it. It is beyond my comprehension how any parent could do that to their child. I am asian, Indian to be exact, i have brown skin and my parents know ive had pre-marital relationships. They understand my reasons and they're not going to disown me because of it. They wouldn't even do that to my sister if they knew she had done the same. I guess there is a difference between Indian and Pakistani culture. I don't hear of Indian Muslims doing such things in the west.

Its not just asians though but also middle eastern people.


It's sad that you can't even trust your parents in this situation. Her fault? Falling in love with a Muslim of another Kurdish clan. She was Iraqi and he was Iranian. She had escaped from a cruel arranged marriage and just wanted true love.
Approx 12 occur a year but many go underreported.
The suicide rate for asian females is 3 times the national average.



I think we should have more organisations fighting against this disease of honour killings. More safe homes, more employment opportunities for these women so they can escape this fate.

[sotrulybeautiful]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Sleeping around with random boys, wearing immodest clothes etc. is going off the rails. But can't really judge, since I don't know her life in detail. It's just best to say whatever sin she was committing, may God forgive her.

Anyways, I'm just giving you the general idea, that parent's usually don't randomly turn harsh unless their kids go off the rails.

Like if your child does something wrong, your not really going to keep being kind and gentle to him, like most parent's, you'll dish out "discipline". Obviously, in some cases, parents go too far (such as the Shafilea case), but there is a cause and effect.


How stereotypical. Yes, she went off the rails, there's no debate about this. I'm pretty sure if she was into prostitution you would've said "that's normal, nothing wrong with that", since your morals are dependant on ever changing social norms.

I blame the parents for not teaching their children. But then again, the parents didn't learn much themselves either. So I guess we can blame the Pakistan education system

But regardless of going off the rails or not, I agree that it's not an excuse to kill the person. Nothing really is. There are better, more civil ways to bring them back on course, and unfortunatly, Shafilea's parents didn't exercise them.

I think you are being stereotypical. You are trying to portray the parents as victims of their daughter's actions. This is complete and utter rubbish. She didn't sleep around with boys. Nothing like that was mentioned. Talking to boys is not a crime especially in a country where inter-mixing is allowed. You are just making this up so Muslims or Asians reading this can have small amount of sympathy for her parents when they deserve none. Even if she did, which no report mentions, she does not deserve this. All it says was that she wore western clothes, taht she applied to move out one month before in fear her parents would marry her away.

Thank God for her brave sister who stood up for the truth and got her parents convicted. Parents are not above the law. They will die and rot in jail or hell. The last thing at that time will be their honour. Right now im sure they're not being seen as very honourable amongst the Pakistani community.

[DJkG.1]

Should be hanged.

[Dee Leigh]

(Original post by FrigidSymphony)
I wonder if Perseveranze realizes that he contributes more to feelings of antagonism towards Islam on these boards than anyone else does.

I don't think.he does...

This was posted from The Student Room's Android App on my GT-S5830

[Dee Leigh]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Sleeping around with random boys, wearing immodest clothes etc. is going off the rails. But can't really judge, since I don't know her life in detail. It's just best to say whatever sin she was committing, may God forgive her.

Anyways, I'm just giving you the general idea, that parent's usually don't randomly turn harsh unless their kids go off the rails.

Like if your child does something wrong, your not really going to keep being kind and gentle to him, like most parent's, you'll dish out "discipline". Obviously, in some cases, parents go too far (such as the Shafilea case), but there is a cause and effect.




How stereotypical. Yes, she went off the rails, there's no debate about this. I'm pretty sure if she was into prostitution you would've said "that's normal, nothing wrong with that", since your morals are dependant on ever changing social norms.

I blame the parents for not teaching their children. But then again, the parents didn't learn much themselves either. So I guess we can blame the Pakistan education system

But regardless of going off the rails or not, I agree that it's not an excuse to kill the person. Nothing really is. There are better, more civil ways to bring them back on course, and unfortunatly, Shafilea's parents didn't exercise them.

Oh really? How do you know this?

I am not trying to sound biased but I don't think you've understood the case properly at all. Shafilea was being abused by her own parents and forced into a marriage, before she was killed. No matter what kind of child she was, she didn't deserve any of that "discipline." And when I was.talking about Western culture, I was trying to illustrate a point. Parents and cutural practices are not above the law, especially when they are barbaric.

Also, it does sound.like you are trying to put a little bit of blame ob Shafilea. It feels as though you are tarnishing her and that her 'faults' were the reason why her parents did what they did, which is not really the right attitude to go about a case like this. You might as well say that the parents were totally justified to do what they did and that Shafilea deserved it because she was wrong to be Westernised.

Disgusting, filthy and such a backwards attitude.