[green.tea]

(Original post by BeanofJelly)
I think a lot of the people dismissing this as being overtly-PC or not real world thinking, have really not thought or delved deeply into the issue at all.

Absolute ****e. The police tell you to lock your door without rubbish about it being the burgers fault if you get burgled. Because its of no interest to pissy little obsessive feminists with nothing better to do than sit around thinking up stupid arguments and hopping up and down shouting about political correctness every time someone looks at a problem and tries to deal with it in a pragmatic way.

[BeanofJelly]

Some statistis (unfortunately from the US, but still):

Source
Campus Sexual Violence
According to a study surveying more than 6,000 students at 32 colleges and universities in the U.S.:

1 in 4 women had been victims of rape or attempted rape
84% of those raped knew their attacker
57% of the rapes happened on dates
Only 27% of the women whose sexual assault met the legal definition of rape thought of themselves as rape victims
42% of the rape victims told no one about the assault
5% reported it to the police
About 75% of the men and at least 55% of the women involved in acquaintance rapes had been drinking or taking drugs just before the attack
38% of the women who had been raped were 14, 15, or 16 years old at the time of the assault


^55% of women involved had taken alcohol or drugs. One glass, is enough to qualify as "drinking or taking drugs". 57% percent of rapes occurred on a date. How many people have at least one glass of alcohol on a date? There's nothing here to suggest that drinking alcohol made these victims more vulnerable. In fact "don't go on dates" would be more evidence based advice.

[Pastaferian]

(Original post by sammy-lou)
The poster [...] has been described as 'appalling' for suggesting that victims of rape are maybe partly to blame if they have been drinking before they were attacked.

I personally was in two minds about this - while I can see how the poster can be read in this way, I do think there may be a certain amount of sensationalising an otherwise beneficial poster campaign. As the article says, there is no doubt that drinking large amounts of alcohol can be seen as a 'risk factor' for rape, or indeed any kind of violent attack.

I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about this; are anti-rape campaigners justified in complaining about these posters?

I thought it was OK - it was saying "be aware of the risks".

The police have a duty to prevent all forms of crime, as well as bringing criminals to justice.

To me it's a bit like reminding people to look both ways when crossing a road. Drivers will still be guilty if they mow a pedestrian down, but warning the pedestrians to take care is a valid accident-prevention strategy, along with encouraging drivers to slow down.

[BeanofJelly]

(Original post by green.tea)
Absolute ****e. The police tell you to lock your door without rubbish about it being the burgers fault if you get burgled. Because its of no interest to pissy little obsessive feminists with nothing better to do than sit around thinking up stupid arguments and hopping up and down shouting about political correctness every time someone looks at a problem and tries to deal with it in a pragmatic way.

I think you'll find you're the one hopping up an down shouting about political correctness.

I'm trying to present a reasoned argument with evidence.

Apparently drawing gut-reaction sensationalist conclusions without any reasoning or evidence, based on pre-held notions about "PC gone wild" and "pissy little obsessive feminists", is more your preferred style?

Sorry if my disgreement has offended you so much. I have actually read both sides of this debate and thought about it calmly.


EDIT: Regarding your analogy. Actually, it's startlingly appropriate. Locking your door won't stop your house from being targeted by burglars, but it will help the insurance claim later. Much like abstaining from alcohol won't keep you safe from rapists, but it will help to prevent judge and jury from blaming you for what happened, and subsequently reducing your court award, and possibly the sentence of your attacker.

[green.tea]

(Original post by BeanofJelly)
Some statistis (unfortunately from the US, but still):

Source
Campus Sexual Violence
According to a study surveying more than 6,000 students at 32 colleges and universities in the U.S.:

1 in 4 women had been victims of rape or attempted rape
84% of those raped knew their attacker
57% of the rapes happened on dates
Only 27% of the women whose sexual assault met the legal definition of rape thought of themselves as rape victims
42% of the rape victims told no one about the assault
5% reported it to the police
About 75% of the men and at least 55% of the women involved in acquaintance rapes had been drinking or taking drugs just before the attack
38% of the women who had been raped were 14, 15, or 16 years old at the time of the assault


^55% of women involved had taken alcohol or drugs. One glass, is enough to qualify as "drinking or taking drugs". 57% percent of rapes occurred on a date. How many people have at least one glass of alcohol on a date? There's nothing here to suggest that drinking alcohol made these victims more vulnerable. In fact "don't go on dates" would be more evidence based advice.

So the statistics dont show that if you get so pissed you can barely walk, get separated from your mates and end up walking across town to the taxi rank on your own your more likely to get raped than if you see the poster and think "hmm, ill drink sensibly and stick with my mates", then?

[Astronomical]

(Original post by doggyfizzel)
I saw this on a feminist site, they initially wrote about how it was good advice, then got flamed in the comments and wrote a new article.

Even after reading those I think it was fine. The fact most rapes aren't involving alcohol or out of the home is not going to be much consolation when you are raped drunk in an alley. The fact some people are makes it a worth while campaign. I don't think it blamed victims, it just reinforced the fact being drunk makes your more vulnerable, to anything for that matter.

Ultimately its the same grinding block I always hit with the feminist view on these articles, the non victim blaming "only rapist cause rape" lines they have. I don't see the point in discussing something that is out of your control. You and the rapist are always going to be variables, you can't control the existence the rapist or his/her actions, only your own. If you are going to help people protect themselves then a campaign aimed at them is the only way it can happen.

As for targeting the perpetrator, seems kind of pointless. Rapists who use violence or drugs know exactly what they are doing, and aren't going to have a change of heart after seeing a poster. As for situation of non consent due to drink and such, the assaulter is probably drunk too, and isn't going to be thinking about the poster they saw on the tube a few days ago. I can't picture a situation where someone is going to be swayed by a poster into not doing something. If that were the case we might as well start printing don't commit murder/fraud/burglary and every other type of crime for all those who might have a change of heart because of the poster at the bus stop.

Reading the comments on the original article made me furious!

It's as if there are women out there who refuse to accept that they should try to take preventative measures to avoid situations that are more common for rapists to attack. Like it or not, these people are out there, and until they aren't men and women have a responsibility to minimise the risk of things like this happening. Nobody is saying be a hermit and don't go outside after 6pm - but what is unreasonable about saying: "drink less so you'll be more in control of yourself and less of a sitting duck" or "don't wander around outside at 4am when these crimes are more likely to occur".

It just befuddles me that some women can be so ignorant to the facts of the matter, namely that rapists exists, and that women should try to protect themselves as much as possible from rapists (by not getting really drunk and by other means such as learning some self-defense, not strolling around at crazy hours of the night, etc.)

Of course the blame is on the rapist - but that doesn't mean women shouldn't try their hardest to protect themselves!

Apparently there is a male version of the poster too - I see no fuss was made about that one, however.

[green.tea]

(Original post by BeanofJelly)
I think you'll find you're the one hopping up an down shouting about political correctness.

I'm trying to present a reasoned argument with evidence.

Apparently drawing gut-reaction sensationalist conclusions without any reasoning or evidence, based on pre-held notions about "PC gone wild" and "pissy little obsessive feminists", is more your preferred style?

Sorry if my disgreement has offended you so much. I have actually read both sides of this debate and thought about it calmly.


EDIT: Regarding your analogy. Actually, it's startlingly appropriate. Locking your door won't stop your house from being targeted by burglars, but it will help the insurance claim later. Much like abstaining from alcohol won't keep you safe from rapists, but it will help to prevent judge and jury from blaming you for what happened, and subsequently reducing your court award, and possibly the sentence of your attacker.

I think locking my door will stop burglars actually. Its quite a good door with these claw things all down the door into the frame when you lock it. They'd have to give it a hell of a whacking which would draw attention. I think they'd pick a house that didnt have such a good door.

[BeanofJelly]

(Original post by green.tea)
So the statistics dont show that if you get so pissed you can barely walk, get separated from your mates and end up walking across town to the taxi rank on your own your more likely to get raped than if you see the poster and think "hmm, ill drink sensibly and stick with my mates", then?

What proportion of rapes do you think occur exactly under those circumstances?

Didn't you look at the statistics I posted?

There's no evidence there to suggest reducing drunkeness is the best way to help women protect themselves.

It is an incorrect perception that rape victims might have protected themselves by not being drunk, in the majority or even the significant minority of cases.

If you wanted to base advice on the reality, of most, or a significant proportion of rapes - "watch your drink at all times", "make your own way home from a date rather than accepting a lift", "be more careful of men who are drunk", "don't let your guard down just because you know someone as a friend or acquiantance" would be more useful, more evidence based, and far less stigmatising.

[BeanofJelly]

(Original post by green.tea)
I think locking my door will stop burglars actually. Its quite a good door with these claw things all down the door into the frame when you lock it. They'd have to give it a hell of a whacking which would draw attention. I think they'd pick a house that didnt have such a good door.

Well unfortunately I can't lock my vagina.

[Hopple]

(Original post by BeanofJelly)
Well unfortunately I can't lock my vagina.

Your fists, feet, knees, elbows, teeth, nails and voice are the locks. If you look like you'll be able to use them then the rapist will move on. Note that the rapist exists, your behaviour won't turn a decent man into a rapist or a rapist into a decent man (so don't interpret me as saying the victim is at fault), but your behaviour can make the rapist more or less likely to choose you as a victim.

[That Bearded Man]

(Original post by green.tea)
I think locking my door will stop burglars actually. Its quite a good door with these claw things all down the door into the frame when you lock it. They'd have to give it a hell of a whacking which would draw attention. I think they'd pick a house that didnt have such a good door.

Haha, okay, try and translate that into beneficial advice for women.

[green.tea]

(Original post by BeanofJelly)
What proportion of rapes do you think occur exactly under those circumstances?

Didn't you look at the statistics I posted?

There's no evidence there to suggest reducing drunkeness is the best way to help women protect themselves.

It is an incorrect perception that rape victims might have protected themselves by not being drunk, in the majority or even the significant minority of cases.

If you wanted to base advice on the reality, of most, or a significant proportion of rapes - "watch your drink at all times", "make your own way home from a date rather than accepting a lift", "be more careful of men who are drunk", "don't let your guard down just because you know someone as a friend or acquiantance" would be more useful, more evidence based, and far less stigmatising.

Yeah always keep a sword pointing at your friends throat in case he tries to rape you. Very sensible. You know quite a lot of rape accusations are false which would skew your stats. Plus how is it rape if the victim doesnt think it was? If someone takes my spanner and i think they borrowed it its not theft even tho if someone said "has anyone ever taken your spanner without your consent" the answer would be yes so could be used as a stat saying it met the definition of theft.

[StacFace]

The problem with it is that it specifically mentions 'regretful sex or rape' and no other form of attack and therefore it is suggesting part of the blame is on the drunken person by specifically addressing it. It would have been fine if that black writing wasn't there or it just said not to leave yourself more vulnerable but not stated what to. The poster would be much more effective this way too as there are many things that could have happened to that girl, so there are more things to avoid and therefore more reasons to drink responsibly and plan how you and your friends will get home safely so none of these things happen to you or them.

[Chief Wiggum]

(Original post by Astronomical)
Apparently there is a male version of the poster too - I see no fuss was made about that one, however.

Indeed, and no fuss ever seems to be made about other advice the police gives on how to reduce the risk of being victims of crime.

Eg, I've seen an American police website just now (don't want to post link since it has email addresses) that is telling people to not leave valuables in their car, to park in well-lit areas etc to reduce theft: that police page is essentially a massive effort of "victim blaming" by the police, using the logic of those who complained about the poster in the OP, and yet there are rarely (never?) complaints about such things.

[StacFace]

(Original post by green.tea)
Yeah always keep a sword pointing at your friends throat in case he tries to rape you. Very sensible. You know quite a lot of rape accusations are false which would skew your stats. Plus how is it rape if the victim doesnt think it was? If someone takes my spanner and i think they borrowed it its not theft even tho if someone said "has anyone ever taken your spanner without your consent" the answer would be yes so could be used as a stat saying it met the definition of theft.

Rape is having sex either knowing the person doesn't consent or not bothering to find out if they do, so it can still be rape if the victim doesn't know it is. Also your theft example would be theft. They dishonestly appropriated property belonging to another with the intent to permanently deprive the other of it. There is nothing in that definition that states the victim has to be aware of it, it's just unlikely they'd be charged because someone else would have to report it since you don't know its happened.

[green.tea]

Some people wake partners up with their mouths sometimes. Sexual assault depending how you ask the question.

[NB_ide]

(Original post by Chief Wiggum)
Indeed, and no fuss ever seems to be made about other advice the police gives on how to reduce the risk of being victims of crime.

Eg, I've seen an American police website just now (don't want to post link since it has email addresses) that is telling people to not leave valuables in their car, to park in well-lit areas etc to reduce theft: that police page is essentially a massive effort of "victim blaming" by the police, using the logic of those who complained about the poster in the OP, and yet there are rarely (never?) complaints about such things.

Because a woman's body is sacred and any attentions towards it are vile and inherently criminal. However, it is her right and obligation to flaunt it as much as possible, and get as drunk as possible, and go home with men, and get into bed with them and if he touches her he is a sick rapist bastard scumbag.

[green.tea]

(Original post by StacFace)
Rape is having sex either knowing the person doesn't consent or not bothering to find out if they do, so it can still be rape if the victim doesn't know it is.

So the victim doesnt know whether or not they consented? How does that work?

[Chief Wiggum]

(Original post by StacFace)
The problem with it is that it specifically mentions 'regretful sex or rape' and no other form of attack and therefore it is suggesting part of the blame is on the drunken person by specifically addressing it. It would have been fine if that black writing wasn't there or it just said not to leave yourself more vulnerable but not stated what to. The poster would be much more effective this way too as there are many things that could have happened to that girl, so there are more things to avoid and therefore more reasons to drink responsibly and plan how you and your friends will get home safely so none of these things happen to you or them.

I don't understand how naming a specific crime "blames" the victim any more than not naming a specific crime though. Why is saying "getting drunk makes you more vulnerable to regretful sex/rape" any different to saying "getting drunk makes you more vulnerable to a variety of crimes"?

I think they named crimes in this case because the advert campaign was specifically to try to reduce rape/sexual assaults.

[Jelkin]

I think one of the reasons people get touchy about this kind of advice is that it's always aimed solely at women. Now, I'm not trying to suggest that women are not more vulnerable than men in terms of bodily strength, because they obviously are, and they're clearly more at risk of being raped. But rape is only one kind of assault - men are statistically more likely to be victims of violent attacks than women (not to mention getting into fights in the street), and I'm sure that's more likely to happen when they've been drinking - yet advice is always aimed at telling women to tone it down. You never see campaigns suggesting that men specifically cut out the booze. When actually, everyone would be safer on the streets if they drank a bit less and looked after each other.

This might be an odd way of looking at the ad in question, but I have thought of a potential positive to that poster - people sometimes think of "drunk rape" or whatever you want to call it as a non-event, something that women make up when they regret having sex with someone. The image of the woman passed out on the floor in a vulnerable situation makes it somehow clearer that women who get attacked having had too much to drink might not just be tipsy but, rather, properly unable to consent to sex.