[Formerly Helpful_C]

(Original post by High VOLTAGE)
Cool, so you have no proof Islam teaches these terrible acts?

Quote where I said that Islam teaches this. I want those exact words. No inferring. No anything other than 'Islam teaches honour killings'.

I await an apology.

[ihatepoems]

(Original post by Dmon1Unlimited)
And is the characteristic being Indian Hindu or not?

This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

[Dmon1Unlimited]

(Original post by ihatepoems)
This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

I don't see the reply... is the characteristic being Indian Hindu or not? Is being Indian Hindu the problem?

Is it difficult to answer the question?

[Awyk]

(Original post by green.tea)
Oh ok. We'll complain, sanction, threaten, present our ideas through media and do our best to argue your ideas down while preventing you from taking measures to counter our influence until all your women are getting drunk and wearing mini skirts/liberated if you'd prefer.

You made no sense at all mate seriously? I'm not protecting Pakistan just saying this view that everyone has is complete and utter b*******.

[green.tea]

(Original post by Awyk)
You made no sense at all mate seriously? I'm not protecting Pakistan just saying this view that everyone has is complete and utter b*******.

Its called meta ethical moral relativism.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Dmon1Unlimited)
It's not specifically a Muslim thing
Even if it was, the mere fact that there is a correlation is not proof that it is a Muslim issue...

You're disproving your own stupid point. If not all Muslims belong to this insane ideology of honour killing, then why is it a Muslim issue... It's rather those who are adamant to keep the cultural aspects of Pakistan. You can still keep your culture and live in a different country.

How many people raised accepting the western culture who are Muslim also participate in honour killings?

it is a cultural aspect of islam to marry only a muslim and for the senior males of the household to decide who the women marry - this has been throughout the islamic world for centuries, it is also within the power of the males to beat females that dont obey - so only the those ignorant of how islam actually works claimes otherwise. hence why such killings occur in various islamic cultures, not just pakistan. Honour killings also occur for non religious reasons too - but in terms of muslim countries, all culture is driven by islam FIRST, that is a requirement of being a muslim.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Maxima)
Dude, I gotta give you props for sneaking that in there.

"So-called honour killings by families who believe their daughters have disgraced them are increasingly common in Pakistan" - The acutal snippet. Come on now, you didn't think someone wouldn't notice?

its true though dude isnt it -

if it were javed smith the zen buddhist, he wouldnt have turned up to court and shot his sister for a marriage dispute, would he ?

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by green.tea)
Oh ok. We'll complain, sanction, threaten, present our ideas through media and do our best to argue your ideas down while preventing you from taking measures to counter our influence until all your women are getting drunk and wearing mini skirts/liberated if you'd prefer.

Hmmm ..... women wearing miniskirts ------- women getting shot by family members for marriage decisions - which is healthier for society...

[Dmon1Unlimited]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
it is a cultural aspect of islam to marry only a muslim and for the senior males of the household to decide who the women marry - this has been throughout the islamic world for centuries, it is also within the power of the males to beat females that dont obey - so only the those ignorant of how islam actually works claimes otherwise. hence why such killings occur in various islamic cultures, not just pakistan. Honour killings also occur for non religious reasons too - but in terms of muslim countries, all culture is driven by islam FIRST, that is a requirement of being a muslim.

A cultural aspect of Islam? If I convert to Islam or a westerner converts to Islam, do you expect them to suddenly adhere to this cultural aspect? Do you expect their family to suddenly want to to only marry Muslims?

While I am not the fountain of knowledge of Islam, I think it's pompous of you to think imply such a moronic statement for people who have different views to you...this from a guy who manipulates quotes from news sources just to back up his own ignorance... And you have the nerve to imply I am...

Ever since I exposed your little 'word play', you've been ripped on a lot of times... Care to justify your actions rather than picking and choosing arguments you think you can counter argue? Haha you even edited "Islamic" out of your first post as a result fail

Honour killings are also part of countries that are not inherently Islamic. Take India for example where forced marriage, honour killings, large amounts of discrimination towards women are present each year...

No... A country is not run by religion first... It is run by retards first who happen to follow religion...

[hannahparis_123]

It's just tremendously sad. Unfortunately, in some places in the World women are still deprived of their human rights. It's unforgivable that in this day and age women are treated as secondary citizens and 'property' of men; regardless of ANY culture or religion.

From the article:
'According to the latest survey of violence against women by the Aurat Foundation, a rights group, there were 2,341 honour killings in 2011 in Pakistan – a 27% jump on the year before. The report also said there were more than 8,000 abductions and 3,461 rapes and gang rapes.'


Just disgusting.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Dmon1Unlimited)
A cultural aspect of Islam? If I convert to Islam or a westerner converts to Islam, do you expect them to suddenly adhere to this cultural aspect? Do you expect their family to suddenly want to to only marry Muslims?

While I am not the fountain of knowledge of Islam, I think it's pompous of you to think imply such a moronic statement for people who have different views to you...this from a guy who manipulates quotes from news sources just to back up his own ignorant... And you have the nerve to imply I am...

Ever since I exposed your little 'word play', you've been ripped on a lot of times... Care to justify your actions rather than picking and choosing arguments you think you can counter argue? Haha you even edited "Islamic" out of your first post as a result fail

Honour killings are also part of countries that are not inherently Islamic. Take India for example where forced marriage, honour killings, large amounts of discrimination towards women are present each year...

No... A country is not run by religion first... It is run by retards first who happen to follow religion...

I think you need to learn to read in that case, i didnt edit anything- it was mod edited due to presumabley your whining lol. Neither was it 'word play' nor was i being 'ripped' - im perfectly entitled to making any comment relevant to the matter - an islam is relevant here, as it has been in the numerous honour killing we have had in this country which laregely feature muslims. To deflect this point as you attempt is to try sweep a serious issue under the carpet, whch is frankly dispicable.

Pakistan is an country run under islamic law, far more strict islamically than most muslim countries.
as i said already, murder - which is all this is, occur for various reasons, non religious AND religion, ie islamic reasoning like these - in the same way a muslim killed a leaver of islam, or an adulterer - these are also islamic related killings

[Dmon1Unlimited]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
I think you need to learn to read in that case, i didnt edit anything- it was mod edited due to presumabley your whining lol. Neither was it 'word play' nor was i being 'ripped' - im perfectly entitled to making any comment relevant to the matter - an islam is relevant here, as it has been in the numerous honour killing we have had in this country which laregely feature muslims. To deflect this point as you attempt is to try sweep a serious issue under the carpet, whch is frankly dispicable.

Pakistan is an country run under islamic law, far more strict islamically than most muslim countries.
as i said already, murder - which is all this is, occur for various reasons, non religious AND religion, ie islamic reasoning like these - in the same way a muslim killed a leaver of islam, or an adulterer - these are also islamic related killings

Wow you're so pathetic that a mod had to edit it for you, didn't have the decency to do it yourself eh?... Atleast I'm not the one making stuff up
oh please, you quote from a source and then manipulate it to try and add to your own stupid views... It's instigation... I'm surprised you weren't given a warning...
In either case your childish plan still backfired...and yes...ripped...

No sir, you are dispicable for trying to blame it on a group of people you are intolerant of. I've already given an example where such acts and more are present where the majority aren't Muslim. You want to discuss Islam, make a thread about it rather than hiding behind an article and adding Islamic in to make some crap point...

An Islamic run country itself is not evidence of the religion being the cause of every travesty...
Yes murder can occur for all sorts of reasons, be it involving religion or not religion. But the presence of a religion is not justification that it is the religion that is the cause... It would be like saying atheism is immoral if a bunch of atheists killed some people, no context whatsoever into why, you only presume... How do you know what is religious context or what is specifically cultural excluding religion?

A Muslim killing a guy is not necessarily related to Islam... Would be like me saying murderers are related to right handed bastards because the majority of them are right handed...

Honour killings and Islam are not interchangeable... It is very well possible to commit such acts without the use of religion...

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Dmon1Unlimited)
Wow you're so pathetic that a mod had to edit it for you, didn't have the decency to do it yourself eh?... Atleast I'm not the one making stuff up
oh please, you quote from a source and then manipulate it to try and add to your own stupid views... It's instigation... I'm surprised you weren't given a warning...
In either case your childish plan still backfired...and yes...ripped...

No sir, you are dispicable for trying to blame it on a group of people you are intolerant of. I've already given an example where such acts and more are present where the majority aren't Muslim. You want to discuss Islam, make a thread about it rather than hiding behind an article and adding Islamic in to make some crap point...

An Islamic run country itself is not evidence of the religion being the cause of every travesty...
Yes murder can occur for all sorts of reasons, be it involving religion or not religion. But the presence of a religion is not justification that it is the religion that is the cause... It would be like saying atheism is immoral if a bunch of atheists killed some people, no context whatsoever into why, you only presume... How do you know what is religious context or what is specifically cultural excluding religion?

A Muslim killing a guy is not necessarily related to Islam... Would be like me saying murderers are related to right handed bastards because the majority of them are right handed...

Honour killings and Islam are not interchangeable... It is very well possible to commit such acts without the use of religion...

Yes very grown up response lol, again learnt to read - i didnt manipulate anything, i gave my opinion, i created the thread to offer my opinion which is the point of this website, regardless if youd prefer to live ina nazii style state where opinions are supressed, to cover up underlying causes of things like honour killings - thats not going to happen im afraid.

There are already plenty of other threads discussing in general terms the problem with honour killings and islam, not just in islamic countries but also exported to the west within muslim immigrant populations- it isnt something that can be or should be ignored, in the same way we dont ignore islamic terrorism, prodestant/catholic sectarian terrorism etc. If you want to discuss non religous factors, you can run off and do it on another thread - this is focussed on the above exmaple, which is a pretty horrific one, and very much to do with the culture within islam of patriarchy and intolerance of deviating in the slightest from islamic principles - often leading to the murder of women by their family members. If you dont wish to discuss this phenomena, then go elsewhere, the fact you admit your ignorance of islam it itself and the importance applied to all muslims to apply islamic culture over national culture suggests, you should find a thread you are capable of making a valid point about.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by yomomalomo)
I'm no proponent of Islam but to be fair, you can't really call honour killings Islamic. Yes, there is issue with a few Muslims over the fact that a women must get male's (her father usually) consent to get married but nowhere does it state that they (women) should be killed if they marry a man without consent or against their fathers wishes.

the point is a moot one; nowhere in the quran does it say muslims should pray 5 times a day, but it is regarded as islamic culture now

senior muslim males in the family are directed to control marriage terms for their daughters and excercise force if necessarry when disobeyed, this right is enshrined in islam and under islamic law practiced in various muslim countries. 'Killing' may not be explicity mentioned, but it can be inferred by those that cannot get their daughters/sisters to follow their instruction- which is largley the case of most honour killings.

[PopaPork]

Sorry But I have to disagree here (and I’m no fan of islam)

I’m sure that the muslims who do this do try and use Islam for justification but there really isn’t any in the Koran (but there are a few in the Hadith that can be twisted and I’m sure and will verify but a couple of muslim countries have lower penalties if a parent murders their child)

However what this does do is show how islam (and no one can deny that these countries do use islam as a base for their culture) has failed to completely address this and is unable to completely deal with the issue

So unfortunately while these countries still use islam as its core of its society these type of murders will always happen

[Mr Blah Blah]

Its not an Islamic thing, it is a cultural thing.

A lot of South Asian culture has a stupid mentality that they are more embarrassed about what others would think of them due to the actions of someone related to them even if the original person is nothing but a begger on the street. It is stupid.

To the Formerly Helpful guy - pedophilia exist in the Catholic community does that mean it is Catholicism problem? No it does not and it would be stupid to say so and you could find a problem in every religion and culture so stop being so ignorant. Since you are so arrogant and demanding people apologise to you unless they can "Quote where I said that Islam teaches this. I want those exact words. No inferring. No anything other than 'Islam teaches honour killings'." why don't you do me a favour and list "millions of honour killings." Unless you can list the names of 1 million victims and exactly 1 million I too await for an apology. What a dick you are lol.

As for the Indo Chinese Food guy there is a theory that any time some mentions Nazis/Hitler in a debate they should automatically be ignored because they are unable to actually discuss the real issue.

I should also add it is not an "increasingly common" practice. It has always existed in a large capacity its just now Media in the UK struggle to find any good news so they decide to find news from elsewhere and randomly decide to report on issue that are lets be honest irrelevant in the UK. They could just continue report on Shafilea Ahmed instead but they choose to be to beacon of light on an issue.

[Dmon1Unlimited]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Yes very grown up response lol, again learnt to read - i didnt manipulate anything, i gave my opinion, i created the thread to offer my opinion which is the point of this website, regardless if youd prefer to live ina nazii style state where opinions are supressed, to cover up underlying causes of things like honour killings - thats not going to happen im afraid.

I can read... Maybe you should work on trying to understand... Quoting an article then putting Islamic in it is your opinion? You can't really be that stupid can you?
Such a weak excuse... The thread can be used to give your opinion but manipulating a quote, something that isnt you opinion, is an instigating tactic... Trying to cover yourself and play it off as being nothing isnt working for you...is just laughable....

There are already plenty of other threads discussing in general terms the problem with honour killings and islam, not just in islamic countries but also exported to the west within muslim immigrant populations- it isnt something that can be or should be ignored, in the same way we dont ignore islamic terrorism, prodestant/catholic sectarian terrorism etc. If you want to discuss non religous factors, you can run off and do it on another thread - this is focussed on the above exmaple, which is a pretty horrific one, and very much to do with the culture within islam of patriarchy and intolerance of deviating in the slightest from islamic principles - often leading to the murder of women by their family members. If you dont wish to discuss this phenomena, then go elsewhere, the fact you admit your ignorance of islam it itself and the importance applied to all muslims to apply islamic culture over national culture suggests, you should find a thread you are capable of making a valid point about.

There are supposedly plenty of threads on this and you thought to try and make one more? Could you possibly just comment on said threads rather than making your own with a manipulated quote?

Excuse me, but you have no proof that there are religious factors in this thread so don't give me bullcrap about going to another thread... You merely associate honour killing with Muslims just because they're present... You haven't even mentioned by point about India...so no I won't run off. So no, you can't blag me off saying this example is about religion when you make weak associations...

all I see is you hiding behind weak tactics to try and get everyone on your side and also hiding behind a weak cover that this thread is some how intended to be about
The issues with Islam... The title is about an article of honour killing, the first post is a...now... Untainted extract of said article (thanks to a mod not you)... Anyone with half a brain would think the thread is about the situation of honour killing. Where honour killing is not a strictly religious thing... No where does it mention islams involvement... It wasn't mentioned in the article, it wasnt mentioned in an opinion of yours next to the quote... The only thing present was your failed attempt of manipulation.

My posts are relevant to the thread, so I will not leave. Atleast I can admit when my knowledge is not perfect... You imply as if you actually know everything which is laughable..... Clearly you can't comprehend the possibility that you yourself are ignorant...

Like I said, I won't leave, my arguments are relevant to the thread and rational. You haven't proved that this issue is an Islamic problem. I've mentioned it occurring it in other countries such as India and you say nothing... Your whole view could have just been put forward as a comment on one of these many threads you mention yet you waste your time in making yet another... I don't believe you made this thread to mainly discuss islams involvement, otherwise you wouldn't use underhanded tactics in the first post... And yes they are underhanded...

Have a neg

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Dmon1Unlimited)
I can read... Maybe you should work on trying to understand... Quoting an article then putting Islamic in it is your opinion? You can't really be that stupid can you?
Such a weak excuse... The thread can be used to give your opinion but manipulating a quote, something that isnt you opinion, is an instigating tactic... Trying to cover yourself and play it off as being nothing isnt working for you...is just laughable....



There are supposedly plenty of threads on this and you thought to try and make one more? Could you possibly just comment on said threads rather than making your own with a manipulated quote?

Excuse me, but you have no proof that there are religious factors in this thread so don't give me bullcrap about going to another thread... You merely associate honour killing with Muslims just because they're present... You haven't even mentioned by point about India...so no I won't run off. So no, you can't blag me off saying this example is about religion when you make weak associations...

all I see is you hiding behind weak tactics to try and get everyone on your side and also hiding behind a weak cover that this thread is some how intended to be about
The issues with Islam... The title is about an article of honour killing, the first post is a...now... Untainted extract of said article (thanks to a mod not you)... Anyone with half a brain would think the thread is about the situation of honour killing. Where honour killing is not a strictly religious thing... No where does it mention islams involvement... It wasn't mentioned in the article, it wasnt mentioned in an opinion of yours next to the quote... The only thing present was your failed attempt of manipulation.

My posts are relevant to the thread, so I will not leave. Atleast I can admit when my knowledge is not perfect... You imply as if you actually know everything which is laughable..... Clearly you can't comprehend the possibility that you yourself are ignorant...

Like I said, I won't leave, my arguments are relevant to the thread and rational. You haven't proved that this issue is an Islamic problem. I've mentioned it occurring it in other countries such as India and you say nothing... Your whole view could have just been put forward as a comment on one of these many threads you mention yet you waste your time in making yet another... I don't believe you made this thread to mainly discuss islams involvement, otherwise you wouldn't use underhanded tactics in the first post... And yes they are underhanded...

Have a neg

the thread is about a specific case reported in the media, that is why it is here. If you are uncomfortable discussings topical cases that are reported in the media intelligently, then dont come to the current affairs section. you clearly have no relevant or valid points to make, so im not wasting anymore time with you.

[Dmon1Unlimited]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
the thread is about a specific case reported in the media, that is why it is here. you clearly have no relevant or valid points to make, so im not wasting anymore time with you.

You told me its about islam... Which is it then?
If its for the article then therefore by your reasoning, you shouldn't even be here, if my points are not valid or relevant then your points are not relevant nor valid either given the article does not mention Islam ... Clearly you're as dopey as you are underhanded...

Is this lack of reply really due to being fed up or is it actually an inability to argue against a point that is right in exposing your failure/bigotry?

Want to talk about Islam? Comment on one of the many threads about it rather than manipulating a quote from an article...

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Mr Blah Blah)
Its not an Islamic thing, it is a cultural thing.

A lot of South Asian culture has a stupid mentality that they are more embarrassed about what others would think of them due to the actions of someone related to them even if the original person is nothing but a begger on the street. It is stupid.

To the Formerly Helpful guy - pedophilia exist in the Catholic community does that mean it is Catholicism problem? No it does not and it would be stupid to say so and you could find a problem in every religion and culture so stop being so ignorant. Since you are so arrogant and demanding people apologise to you unless they can "Quote where I said that Islam teaches this. I want those exact words. No inferring. No anything other than 'Islam teaches honour killings'." why don't you do me a favour and list "millions of honour killings." Unless you can list the names of 1 million victims and exactly 1 million I too await for an apology. What a dick you are lol.

As for the Indo Chinese Food guy there is a theory that any time some mentions Nazis/Hitler in a debate they should automatically be ignored because they are unable to actually discuss the real issue.

I should also add it is not an "increasingly common" practice. It has always existed in a large capacity its just now Media in the UK struggle to find any good news so they decide to find news from elsewhere and randomly decide to report on issue that are lets be honest irrelevant in the UK. They could just continue report on Shafilea Ahmed instead but they choose to be to beacon of light on an issue.

I think a story of a lawyer walking into court then shooting his sister becuase he didnt agree with her conduct is pretty newsworthy story, wherever it happens.
What exactly did you think made it non newsworthy.
yes the shafeila ahmed case shoudl be discussed, and is on various threads on tsr already. SImilar points on those threads can be raised here.
And as regards your 'nazi' theory, i beleive this relates subject matter, not the principle of debate i was critising the daemonunlimited attempts to get this subject censored for debate-as things are in facist regiemes. If you prefer i could have referred to Stalinist russia instead.