New Associate Programme: IBD or PWM?
Good evening everyone,
I'm perhaps a bit past it to be posing questions here, having completed my PhD a while ago now, but as so many of you have valuable perspectives and experience, here goes.
I'm in my late 20s and will be applying to GS's New Associate programme (and elsewhere) in what would, in the off chance that I'm actually successful, represent a long-considered career change. Potted history: a first in philosophy, MA (distinction) and PhD in another humanities subject, all from Oxbridge; walked away from an Oxbridge post-doc to strike out on my own and set up my own (now successful) consultancy advising HNW individuals on developing and curating their private art collections. Am realistic enough to know that I'm probably not what the investment banks tend to look for, but am not one to not give it my best shot anyway.
There are aspects of both investment banking and private wealth management/private banking that strongly appeal to me, and I can envisage being content and stimulated in both, but I've got to choose one. I've heard anecdotally that the earning potential in PWM/PB, even at the bulge brackets, is nowhere near that of IBD. Can anyone confirm or refute this? Does anyone know whether my chances might be nominally less miniscule in PWM, and is it indeed true that it's far more difficult to move from PWM to IBD than it is to move across in the other direction?
Any thoughts very gratefully received.
Cheers!
I'm perhaps a bit past it to be posing questions here, having completed my PhD a while ago now, but as so many of you have valuable perspectives and experience, here goes.
I'm in my late 20s and will be applying to GS's New Associate programme (and elsewhere) in what would, in the off chance that I'm actually successful, represent a long-considered career change. Potted history: a first in philosophy, MA (distinction) and PhD in another humanities subject, all from Oxbridge; walked away from an Oxbridge post-doc to strike out on my own and set up my own (now successful) consultancy advising HNW individuals on developing and curating their private art collections. Am realistic enough to know that I'm probably not what the investment banks tend to look for, but am not one to not give it my best shot anyway.
There are aspects of both investment banking and private wealth management/private banking that strongly appeal to me, and I can envisage being content and stimulated in both, but I've got to choose one. I've heard anecdotally that the earning potential in PWM/PB, even at the bulge brackets, is nowhere near that of IBD. Can anyone confirm or refute this? Does anyone know whether my chances might be nominally less miniscule in PWM, and is it indeed true that it's far more difficult to move from PWM to IBD than it is to move across in the other direction?
Any thoughts very gratefully received.
Cheers!
(edited 11 years ago)
You will probably make more in IBD versus in PWM, but your hours in PWM may be more sociable. You also have to think of where your skillset lies. Given what you can bring to the table, I think you would garner much more interest from the PWM teams (in light of the consultancy targeting HNWIs and the Oxbridge background - re. your network) than from the IBD teams, who traditionally recruit MBAs rather than PhDs on the invesment banking side. On the GS Securities side the preference is ordinarily for PhDs in quant subjects, particularly in specialisms like machine learning. PWM -> IBD moves (and also IBD -> PWM moves) are both going to be rare at the associate level, but at an anecdotal level Goldman are known to be more open to reloating people from one division to another, especially if they see transferable talent in that employee.
Original post by Shazam100
Good evening everyone,
I'm perhaps a bit past it to be posing questions here, having completed my PhD a while ago now, but as so many of you have valuable perspectives and experience, here goes.
I'm in my late 20s and will be applying to GS's New Associate programme (and elsewhere) in what would, in the off chance that I'm actually successful, represent a long-considered career change. Potted history: a first in philosophy, MA (distinction) and PhD in another humanities subject, all from Oxbridge; walked away from an Oxbridge post-doc to strike out on my own and set up my own (now successful) consultancy advising HNW individuals on developing and curating their private art collections. Am realistic enough to know that I'm probably not what the investment banks tend to look for, but am not one to not give it my best shot anyway.
There are aspects of both investment banking and private wealth management/private banking that strongly appeal to me, and I can envisage being content and stimulated in both, but I've got to choose one. I've heard anecdotally that the earning potential in PWM/PB, even at the bulge brackets, is nowhere near that of IBD. Can anyone confirm or refute this? Does anyone know whether my chances might be nominally less miniscule in PWM, and is it indeed true that it's far more difficult to move from PWM to IBD than it is to move across in the other direction?
Any thoughts very gratefully received.
Cheers!
I'm perhaps a bit past it to be posing questions here, having completed my PhD a while ago now, but as so many of you have valuable perspectives and experience, here goes.
I'm in my late 20s and will be applying to GS's New Associate programme (and elsewhere) in what would, in the off chance that I'm actually successful, represent a long-considered career change. Potted history: a first in philosophy, MA (distinction) and PhD in another humanities subject, all from Oxbridge; walked away from an Oxbridge post-doc to strike out on my own and set up my own (now successful) consultancy advising HNW individuals on developing and curating their private art collections. Am realistic enough to know that I'm probably not what the investment banks tend to look for, but am not one to not give it my best shot anyway.
There are aspects of both investment banking and private wealth management/private banking that strongly appeal to me, and I can envisage being content and stimulated in both, but I've got to choose one. I've heard anecdotally that the earning potential in PWM/PB, even at the bulge brackets, is nowhere near that of IBD. Can anyone confirm or refute this? Does anyone know whether my chances might be nominally less miniscule in PWM, and is it indeed true that it's far more difficult to move from PWM to IBD than it is to move across in the other direction?
Any thoughts very gratefully received.
Cheers!
Can I ask why you want to work for a bank if you own a successful consultancy? Is it to gain experience that will help your current business become more successful or is it something to do, to pass time so to speak. I am very interested in reading your response.
??
Original post by Shazam100
I'm in my late 20s and will be applying to GS's New Associate programme (and elsewhere) in what would, in the off chance that I'm actually successful, represent a long-considered career change.
I'm in my late 20s and will be applying to GS's New Associate programme (and elsewhere) in what would, in the off chance that I'm actually successful, represent a long-considered career change.
Original post by i_hate_teeth
Can I ask why you want to work for a bank if you own a successful consultancy? Is it to gain experience that will help your current business become more successful or is it something to do, to pass time so to speak. I am very interested in reading your response.
Hoi effofex,
Hartelijk bedankt. You've confirmed my instinct that it's probably more sensible to pursue the area where they might be more likely to take a passing interest in me, even if that area represents my second choice, rather than to pursue my first choice, where I would appear as a more left-field candidate in whom they may see no reason to be particularly interested. And I suppose that if I were to get in, and were to be successful (all tremendously big 'ifs', of course), in the long term there could be exit routes into fund management or other things - PWM need not be a small room with closed doors, right? That is my greatest fear. My question about earning potential was more to do with needing a sense of something like 'the sky's the limit' (as I attempt to explain to i_hate_teeth below).
Hi i_hate_teeth,
So many reasons, which I couldn't hope to do proper justice to here. Whilst I am certainly not doing badly (if I were to actually secure a place on a New Associate programme I may even have to take an initial cut in salary, though probably not a huge one), I've more or less reached my maximum earning potential, given that I'm a self-employed one man band; as I am very much incentive driven, seeing my earnings plateau is like death. The fee structure in my line of work means that there's no performance-related pay: if I knock myself out and achieve something quite major, I earn the same as if I hadn't done. The fact that I've built it up to the level which I have (I didn't know whether it would even be possible when I started out) means that the challenge has evaporated, and that too is like death to me. I've proved to myself that I can do X, Y, Z...so now what? I'm not the sort of person that can just sit back and enjoy the fruits and cease the quasi-Promethean striving that's landed me at this impasse in the first place. Also, as I've got a bit older and got some experience under my belt I find that my priorities, interests and needs (well beyond what I've outlined here) have shifted in a way that is no longer being satisfied by my current work. I know that I am capable of achieving more and of being remunerated accordingly, but I've reached the limits of what I can do with my existing business, and I no longer feel sufficiently interested in or committed to it to try to expand it (which in any case could prove almost impossible or at least potentially disastrous, given the quirks of the very niche area I work in). I hope that goes some way to answering your question.
Cheers!
Hartelijk bedankt. You've confirmed my instinct that it's probably more sensible to pursue the area where they might be more likely to take a passing interest in me, even if that area represents my second choice, rather than to pursue my first choice, where I would appear as a more left-field candidate in whom they may see no reason to be particularly interested. And I suppose that if I were to get in, and were to be successful (all tremendously big 'ifs', of course), in the long term there could be exit routes into fund management or other things - PWM need not be a small room with closed doors, right? That is my greatest fear. My question about earning potential was more to do with needing a sense of something like 'the sky's the limit' (as I attempt to explain to i_hate_teeth below).
Hi i_hate_teeth,
So many reasons, which I couldn't hope to do proper justice to here. Whilst I am certainly not doing badly (if I were to actually secure a place on a New Associate programme I may even have to take an initial cut in salary, though probably not a huge one), I've more or less reached my maximum earning potential, given that I'm a self-employed one man band; as I am very much incentive driven, seeing my earnings plateau is like death. The fee structure in my line of work means that there's no performance-related pay: if I knock myself out and achieve something quite major, I earn the same as if I hadn't done. The fact that I've built it up to the level which I have (I didn't know whether it would even be possible when I started out) means that the challenge has evaporated, and that too is like death to me. I've proved to myself that I can do X, Y, Z...so now what? I'm not the sort of person that can just sit back and enjoy the fruits and cease the quasi-Promethean striving that's landed me at this impasse in the first place. Also, as I've got a bit older and got some experience under my belt I find that my priorities, interests and needs (well beyond what I've outlined here) have shifted in a way that is no longer being satisfied by my current work. I know that I am capable of achieving more and of being remunerated accordingly, but I've reached the limits of what I can do with my existing business, and I no longer feel sufficiently interested in or committed to it to try to expand it (which in any case could prove almost impossible or at least potentially disastrous, given the quirks of the very niche area I work in). I hope that goes some way to answering your question.
Cheers!
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Shazam100
Hoi effofex,
Hartelijk bedankt. You've confirmed my instinct that it's probably more sensible to pursue the area where they might be more likely to take a passing interest in me, even if that area represents my second choice, rather than to pursue my first choice, where I would appear as a more left-field candidate in whom they may see no reason to be particularly interested. And I suppose that if I were to get in, and were to be successful (all tremendously big 'ifs', of course), in the long term there could be exit routes into fund management or other things - PWM need not be a small room with closed doors, right? That is my greatest fear. My question about earning potential was more to do with needing a sense of something like 'the sky's the limit' (as I attempt to explain to i_hate_teeth below).
Hartelijk bedankt. You've confirmed my instinct that it's probably more sensible to pursue the area where they might be more likely to take a passing interest in me, even if that area represents my second choice, rather than to pursue my first choice, where I would appear as a more left-field candidate in whom they may see no reason to be particularly interested. And I suppose that if I were to get in, and were to be successful (all tremendously big 'ifs', of course), in the long term there could be exit routes into fund management or other things - PWM need not be a small room with closed doors, right? That is my greatest fear. My question about earning potential was more to do with needing a sense of something like 'the sky's the limit' (as I attempt to explain to i_hate_teeth below).
Hei. Goedemorgen Shazam. Ben je nederlands?
In het engels: It depends what matters more to you - working in the industry (in general) at GS, or working within a specific division (IBD vs. PWM). That should ultimately determine which business area you direct your application to. What I said is that ignoring motivations, if some people from both businesses saw your CV, experience and credentials, it would more likely garner more interest in PWM than in IBD.
Also, I think it would be nice of you to use the the terminology 'quasi-Promethean' in your application. It would likely capture a reader's attention.
Just as Gen. Melchett does in Blackadder goes Forth I have requested that the phrase be noted down for use in future.
Original post by Shazam100
Hoi effofex,
Hartelijk bedankt. You've confirmed my instinct that it's probably more sensible to pursue the area where they might be more likely to take a passing interest in me, even if that area represents my second choice, rather than to pursue my first choice, where I would appear as a more left-field candidate in whom they may see no reason to be particularly interested. And I suppose that if I were to get in, and were to be successful (all tremendously big 'ifs', of course), in the long term there could be exit routes into fund management or other things - PWM need not be a small room with closed doors, right? That is my greatest fear. My question about earning potential was more to do with needing a sense of something like 'the sky's the limit' (as I attempt to explain to i_hate_teeth below).
Hi i_hate_teeth,
So many reasons, which I couldn't hope to do proper justice to here. Whilst I am certainly not doing badly (if I were to actually secure a place on a New Associate programme I may even have to take an initial cut in salary, though probably not a huge one), I've more or less reached my maximum earning potential, given that I'm a self-employed one man band; as I am very much incentive driven, seeing my earnings plateau is like death. The fee structure in my line of work means that there's no performance-related pay: if I knock myself out and achieve something quite major, I earn the same as if I hadn't done. The fact that I've built it up to the level which I have (I didn't know whether it would even be possible when I started out) means that the challenge has evaporated, and that too is like death to me. I've proved to myself that I can do X, Y, Z...so now what? I'm not the sort of person that can just sit back and enjoy the fruits and cease the quasi-Promethean striving that's landed me at this impasse in the first place. Also, as I've got a bit older and got some experience under my belt I find that my priorities, interests and needs (well beyond what I've outlined here) have shifted in a way that is no longer being satisfied by my current work. I know that I am capable of achieving more and of being remunerated accordingly, but I've reached the limits of what I can do with my existing business, and I no longer feel sufficiently interested in or committed to it to try to expand it (which in any case could prove almost impossible or at least potentially disastrous, given the quirks of the very niche area I work in). I hope that goes some way to answering your question.
Cheers!
Hartelijk bedankt. You've confirmed my instinct that it's probably more sensible to pursue the area where they might be more likely to take a passing interest in me, even if that area represents my second choice, rather than to pursue my first choice, where I would appear as a more left-field candidate in whom they may see no reason to be particularly interested. And I suppose that if I were to get in, and were to be successful (all tremendously big 'ifs', of course), in the long term there could be exit routes into fund management or other things - PWM need not be a small room with closed doors, right? That is my greatest fear. My question about earning potential was more to do with needing a sense of something like 'the sky's the limit' (as I attempt to explain to i_hate_teeth below).
Hi i_hate_teeth,
So many reasons, which I couldn't hope to do proper justice to here. Whilst I am certainly not doing badly (if I were to actually secure a place on a New Associate programme I may even have to take an initial cut in salary, though probably not a huge one), I've more or less reached my maximum earning potential, given that I'm a self-employed one man band; as I am very much incentive driven, seeing my earnings plateau is like death. The fee structure in my line of work means that there's no performance-related pay: if I knock myself out and achieve something quite major, I earn the same as if I hadn't done. The fact that I've built it up to the level which I have (I didn't know whether it would even be possible when I started out) means that the challenge has evaporated, and that too is like death to me. I've proved to myself that I can do X, Y, Z...so now what? I'm not the sort of person that can just sit back and enjoy the fruits and cease the quasi-Promethean striving that's landed me at this impasse in the first place. Also, as I've got a bit older and got some experience under my belt I find that my priorities, interests and needs (well beyond what I've outlined here) have shifted in a way that is no longer being satisfied by my current work. I know that I am capable of achieving more and of being remunerated accordingly, but I've reached the limits of what I can do with my existing business, and I no longer feel sufficiently interested in or committed to it to try to expand it (which in any case could prove almost impossible or at least potentially disastrous, given the quirks of the very niche area I work in). I hope that goes some way to answering your question.
Cheers!
This is a very interesting perspective. It's all very personal, expectations vs. satisfaction. I, and my business partner personally have no problems with sitting back and enjoying the fruits, but I do wonder whether I'll get bored with my current lifestyle in the future i.e. loads of free time. Good luck with the apps - I'm looking forward to seeing more posts from you on tsr!
Goeiemorgen effofex,
Half nederlandse, half IJslandse! And now so enamoured with Britain and all things British that I wish never to leave this blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England!
Thanks so much again for your extremely valuable perspective. It looks like it's got to be PWM for me. I had supposed as much, and toward that end will be sitting the first round of regulatory exams for PWM next month (viz. unit 1 of the IMC) in the hope that it may enhance my chances somewhat. In terms of what matters to me, my overarching concern is to avoid a recurrence of my existing situation (even if at a higher level) where my earnings are effectively capped by the nature of the area of work. What's happened is that I saw my earnings from my consultancy start at nil (at which time I was supporting myself through various ebay businesses that I had started up previously), then after a somewhat hesitant start rocket colossally before plateauing at a level below what I know I could otherwise achieve, which has been the source of some depression for me: it's like I've flatlined when I felt that I was only just getting started and am nowhere near my limit in terms of capability. Whilst this type of salary comparison seems difficult to come by, the concerns that have been stoked in me through the patchy, opaque indications I've sourced online (from sources whose accuracy and applicability I am unable to independently verify) is that the same could eventually happen in PWM, potentially at a level higher but not spectacularly higher than what I've got now (this same concern is what underpinned my question about interdivision mobility and possible exit routes down the road). I'd love to know how the potential salary range (allowing for all the obvious variables) for, say, a VP or executive director in PWM at a bulge bracket compares to the comparable career grade in IBD, for example. Whilst my application for PWM over IBD is now a given, for psychological reasons it's important that I calibrate my expectations realistically in relation to what could comprise my next series of moves should I actually manage to get in, so that I can avoid inadvertently reprising the downer which I feel myself to have hit at the moment. This is what I'm trying to sort through in my mind, but I can't seem to lay my hands on the concrete data that would enable me to do so.
Good morning i_hate_teeth,
Yes, it's very much down to personality, and I will admit that secretly I've always envied those lucky people who are able to just sit back and enjoy the relative material comfort and mental ease that can come with achieving a certain level of professional and financial success. I suspect that I'm simply not clever enough to have figured out how to do this. Being driven to the extent that I unfortunately am results in a permanent state of almost Faustian restlessness, which isn't a bad thing at all as long as external parameters don't block you from being rewarded for each successive milestone attained on the incessant drive onwards and upwards. I doubt that I will ever be able to enjoy the feeling of being satisfied. There can never be a terminus, only bridges and a springboards to the next glittering thing. I just hope that PWM might be able to provide such an environment, or at least serve as a suitable launchpad to one...
Cheers and kindest regards to both of you.
Half nederlandse, half IJslandse! And now so enamoured with Britain and all things British that I wish never to leave this blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England!
Thanks so much again for your extremely valuable perspective. It looks like it's got to be PWM for me. I had supposed as much, and toward that end will be sitting the first round of regulatory exams for PWM next month (viz. unit 1 of the IMC) in the hope that it may enhance my chances somewhat. In terms of what matters to me, my overarching concern is to avoid a recurrence of my existing situation (even if at a higher level) where my earnings are effectively capped by the nature of the area of work. What's happened is that I saw my earnings from my consultancy start at nil (at which time I was supporting myself through various ebay businesses that I had started up previously), then after a somewhat hesitant start rocket colossally before plateauing at a level below what I know I could otherwise achieve, which has been the source of some depression for me: it's like I've flatlined when I felt that I was only just getting started and am nowhere near my limit in terms of capability. Whilst this type of salary comparison seems difficult to come by, the concerns that have been stoked in me through the patchy, opaque indications I've sourced online (from sources whose accuracy and applicability I am unable to independently verify) is that the same could eventually happen in PWM, potentially at a level higher but not spectacularly higher than what I've got now (this same concern is what underpinned my question about interdivision mobility and possible exit routes down the road). I'd love to know how the potential salary range (allowing for all the obvious variables) for, say, a VP or executive director in PWM at a bulge bracket compares to the comparable career grade in IBD, for example. Whilst my application for PWM over IBD is now a given, for psychological reasons it's important that I calibrate my expectations realistically in relation to what could comprise my next series of moves should I actually manage to get in, so that I can avoid inadvertently reprising the downer which I feel myself to have hit at the moment. This is what I'm trying to sort through in my mind, but I can't seem to lay my hands on the concrete data that would enable me to do so.
Good morning i_hate_teeth,
Yes, it's very much down to personality, and I will admit that secretly I've always envied those lucky people who are able to just sit back and enjoy the relative material comfort and mental ease that can come with achieving a certain level of professional and financial success. I suspect that I'm simply not clever enough to have figured out how to do this. Being driven to the extent that I unfortunately am results in a permanent state of almost Faustian restlessness, which isn't a bad thing at all as long as external parameters don't block you from being rewarded for each successive milestone attained on the incessant drive onwards and upwards. I doubt that I will ever be able to enjoy the feeling of being satisfied. There can never be a terminus, only bridges and a springboards to the next glittering thing. I just hope that PWM might be able to provide such an environment, or at least serve as a suitable launchpad to one...
Cheers and kindest regards to both of you.
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