[Sheep]

I don't understand how this works.

Muslims are very sincere in their belief that the Koran is the the word of God (Allah) - as told by the last prophet Muhammed

They use this book as clear guidelines on how to live their lives, treat their women, how/when/where to pray, how to dress, what food they should or shouldn't eat

but when it comes to certain parts of the Koran most of them go "hmm, I don't really like this, I think I'll pretend it doesn't exist", like the parts where it clearly says that the infidels (the non-believers) should be made to believe through use of violence/force

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...3-violence.htm

I've heard the phrase "real muslims" used a lot to describe the muslims who practice ALL that the Koran teaches, otherwise known as 'radical/extremist muslims' lol

Bill Maher mentions it quite a lot, the extremists, the people behind 9/11 or 7/7 are the ones who take their holy book seriously ! they don't just ignore half the book like the rest of the "so-called muslims"

In my opinion, you can not put the blame on these 'individuals' and say they give islam a bad name, because it's not their fault, it's the Korans fault, the Koran is what gives Islam a bad name.



Above is a debate which pretty much confirms this, most of the people involved seem to be religious in one way or another and there is a point where the idea of 'editing/chopping parts of the holy book' is mentioned and they all seem ok with it lol, one of them even says "religion must adapt otherwise it will die out" which I was just amazed by, I mean I completely agree that if the bible remained 'un-edited' it would die out extremely fast as society progresses (for example imagine if christians were still acknowledging the old testament xD), but really, how can you honestly say that you believe in these fairy tale books if you're having to constantly adjust them when they stop making sense, and disregard certain parts just so that it is easier to believe, I mean it is frankly lying to yourself, how do you lie to yourself lol I find it impossible

As I've pointed out, as the video points out, it's not unique to Islam by any means, all organized religions seem to be based of some 'holy book' and since the more popular holy books are now thousands of years old, they contain a lot of out-dated bronze age crap, so it is understandable that they would need to be updated

but that's when you regard it as you would regard any old regular book, these are supposed to be books created by someone who is apparently in direct contact with an all-knowing and omnipotent God (who is apparently able to create a universe but needs to use someone else to make a book for him)

I'm sure there are many muslims/christians on this forum who are guilty of dicing up their holy books and disgarding the unwanted pieces so please post here and explain to me how it works

[RocknRap]

Well this is new and exciting. Thanks OP for awaring us on this breakthrough discovery

[Sheep]

of course it's not new, "new and exciting" isn't words I would use to describe pretty much any thread in this subforum

but I didn't create this thread to excite you

I created it so that I can understand things better

in the hope that religious peoples can explain how they can just choose to accept one half of holy book but not the rest

how can you pick and mix the word of god lol

[Pinkhead]

Typical Christian I have encountered:
'HEY THE OLD TESTAMENT DOESN'T COUNT BUT WE'LL STILL ABIDE BY THE 10 COMMANDMENTS AND WE'LL STILL HATE HOMOSEXUALS!!!!one!!!111'

I really hope I am missing something crucial here because I have heard a lot of people say things which are fundamentally just what I wrote in caps.
I personally don't know about muslims doing this so I will not comment on them.

When you bring up the fact that the Old Testament contains some questionable moral teachings, christians tend to say 'well Jesus is my saviour and we don't follow the OT'.
Well, what about the hate for homosexuals? What about the creation story? The flood? The ten commandments?
Why then is it part of the Bible?

Also for those who say that Jesus abolished the laws:
Matthew
5:17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Of course, I am probably (I hope) very misunderstood here, so if anyone can actually explain it to me, then I will be grateful.

[Sheep]

yeah I suspect with all the sudden attention on the topic of homophobia and gay marriage, the parts that say homophobic stuff with also be 'dropped', with terrible excuses like "it was all misinterpreted", "he didn't mean it literally, he meant it in a spiritual sense"

[.eXe]

(Original post by Pinkhead)
Typical Christian I have encountered:
'HEY THE OLD TESTAMENT DOESN'T COUNT BUT WE'LL STILL ABIDE BY THE 10 COMMANDMENTS AND WE'LL STILL HATE HOMOSEXUALS!!!!one!!!111'

I really hope I am missing something crucial here because I have heard a lot of people say things which are fundamentally just what I wrote in caps.
I personally don't know about muslims doing this so I will not comment on them.

When you bring up the fact that the Old Testament contains some questionable moral teachings, christians tend to say 'well Jesus is my saviour and we don't follow the OT'.
Well, what about the hate for homosexuals? What about the creation story? The flood? The ten commandments?
Why then is it part of the Bible?

Also for those who say that Jesus abolished the laws:
Matthew
5:17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Of course, I am probably (I hope) very misunderstood here, so if anyone can actually explain it to me, then I will be grateful.

You're intentionally interpreting the verses you have posted incorrectly. I have mentioned in several occasions that fulfill doesn't automatically mean that those verses Are valid for eternity. And abolish doesn't mean that those verses get thrown out of the Bible And rejected.

The old testament was valid within its context and time period. The laws within it are just not valid for Christians...remember they are followed by Jews not Christians. There is a specific verse which clarifies that once Jesus came, the old testament laws were not in effect any longer.

This of course doesn't mean that they were abolished....meaning we don't rip them out the Bible and throw them away. They just ceased to apply any longer because Christians were asked to follow Jesus rather than the laws.

In regards to your ten commandments point , mate we follow hem because they are just good examples to live by. I mean do u see something wrong with following do not kill or do not lie or do not covet? These are just good and practical things that every human being tries to follow, not Christians alone. So I don't see what your problem is with Christians who still choose to follow the ten commandments.

-[Posted via mobile app]-

[Wirral]

(Original post by Pinkhead)
Typical Christian I have encountered:
'HEY THE OLD TESTAMENT DOESN'T COUNT BUT WE'LL STILL ABIDE BY THE 10 COMMANDMENTS AND WE'LL STILL HATE HOMOSEXUALS!!!!one!!!111'

You haven't told the half of it. In my town the homosexuals quake in anticipation of Sundays. At midday the Christians pour out of the churches baying for the blood of 'the Sodomites', as they call them. The most dreaded is St. Vitus C of E. A new vicar has recently taken charge. Every Sunday he whips his flock into a frenzy of hatred against 'the damnable perverts'. Even before his sermon is over the congregation is wielding axes to chop the pews into sharpened stakes. The closing benediction is the war cry that raises the hatred to fever pitch, and out pours the screaming mob. Most fearsome are the old ladies. Casting aside their pork pie hats, wielding their stakes above their heads, yelling like demented hyenas, they lead the frenzied search for the homosexuals, who cower in terror beneath stairwells and in basements.

eXe has answered your other points. I will just add to his answer a short extract from the 1689 Confession of Faith:

'Beside the moral law [the ten commandments] God also gave to the people of Israel ceremonial laws which served as types of things to come. They fell into two main groups. In one group were rites, partly relating to worship. which pre-figured Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and the blessings he procured for us. The other group contained a variety of instructions about moral duties. By divine appointment all these ceremonial laws were to be observed, but only until they were abrogated in New Testament days by Jesus Christ, the true Messiah and only law-giver, who was empowered by the Father to terminate them.'

[Alpharius]

Lets face fact; most of the passages that are disregarded by the moderates are done so because there are other passages that completely contradict them in the same book.

It does mean that religious books cannot be perfect. As an example in the Qu'ran, there are many passages that encourage peace with infidels, yet there are also passages that promote their forced conversion/execution. In the Bible, you are told not to judge others and to love everyone, yet homosexuality is condemned (and they're both in the New Testament, before I get the usual drivel; "It's in the OT, it doesn't count!").

They were evidently not inspired by anything divine, otherwise there would not be two completely contradictory accounts of Judah's death (as an example from the Bible). They were all written by multiple authors, all with their own personalities, and they naturally contradict each other. Nothing supernatural about them.

[TheGrinningSkull]

Fighting is against those who are oppressed.

"Why should you not fight in God's cause and for those oppressed men, women, and children who cry out, 'Lord, rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors! By your grace, give us a protector and helper'." 4:75

This link will help explain things; http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/journa...08_01_e01.html

"And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing." 8:61

So please don't pick and choose (the irony) the verses without actually reading say, a few verses after and knowing about what is going on

[Wirral]

(Original post by Alpharius)
.... In the Bible, you are told not to judge others and to love everyone, yet homosexuality is condemned (and they're both in the New Testament, before I get the usual drivel; "It's in the OT, it doesn't count!").

A significant observation, this. If we are not to judge others, we can behave any way we want without fear of rebuke. A Christian man has multiple affairs with other Christians' wives. Who can tell him he is at fault? We are not to judge others! I see other implications. If God tells us not to judge others, how can there be a Day of Judgment? Surely a holy God will observe his own precept?

Or maybe sin is not abolished quite so easily. In your post I presume you were alluding to Jesus' words in the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 7:1;

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way that you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Now look at it in context with a fuller quote, Matthew 7:1-6;

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way that you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

Jesus is not saying 'do not judge' in the sense of being morally lax or indulging sin, as many assume. He is speaking against having a mean, self-righteous, hypocritical spirit. The part about the dogs confirms this. 'Pearls' refer to God's truth, especially the gospel. Sometimes the gospel is to be withheld. From whom? From dogs. How do I know who the dogs are? I have to use....yes, judgment! The whole passage is an example of a dilemma, of which there are many in the Bible. In a dilemma we are given 'opposing' statements which we need to hold in balance and weigh against each other in every situation. The dilemma in Matthew 7:1-6 might be summarised 'Be patient with those in error, but your patience must not be endless'.

[Perseveranze]

I lol'd, this is like your average post on EDL forums lmao.

Didn't you know, Tesco has gone towards Islam!

I have thought long and hard before i say this. Because i have made three phone calls about the sign of the Quran

in the Tesco supermarket. Also it has arabic words and another word: Sunnah. which may be a town or village in Yemen.

These signs are slap in the middle of the supermarket at the back of Harrow Branch.

It is no good speaking to one of the managers because they just fob you off and then will do nothing.

It would even things up a bit if a sign could also be put up mentioning the Bible, say St.James Bible or a Presbetarian sign maybe.

But the managers don’t like that idea. The food is Halal and if it had been put at a corner of the Supermarket like Asda have done then that would have been more sensible because you wouldn’t have to go near it then if you don’t want to.

Putting it right in the middle is provocative, and deliberate. The people on the customer service telephones, say: “Well I have recorded your comments about it, thank you” and thats it. I have tried three times to get a response but they don’t want to know.

When you try to get others interested in complaining , they say things like “Well i am not religious so i don’t notice it really”

I know how Winston Churchill felt now, when he was trying to warn MPs about what was going to happen, the sec w.war.

http://englishdefenceleague.org/foru...over-to-islam/

No Muslim will ever pretend any part of the Qur'an doesn't exist, this isn't the Bible. The Qur'an, in every single letter, is the word of God.

All you have to do is ask a Muslim about things you have no clue about, and they'll explain it to you. But you don't ask, you just go to your priest or your EDL mate, and then say; "mhm, Muslims must ignore this even exists, otherwise they should be killing all the infidels!".

That's why there's a Ask about Islam Thread.

[.eXe]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
I lol'd, this is like your average post on EDL forums lmao.

Didn't you know, Tesco has gone towards Islam!



No Muslim will ever pretend any part of the Qur'an doesn't exist, this isn't the Bible. The Qur'an, in every single letter, is the word of God.

All you have to do is ask a Muslim about things you have no clue about, and they'll explain it to you. But you don't ask, you just go to your priest or your EDL mate, and then say; "mhm, Muslims must ignore this even exists, otherwise they should be killing all the infidels!".

That's why there's a Ask about Islam Thread.

Uh just to clarify for you, no Christian ever pretends that any part of the Bible "doesn't exist" as you incorrectly implied. We just recognize that God gave laws under contexts and in many cases, even specified the context (for example the old laws being given to the Israelites).

Oh and there's a reason Christianity isn't stuck in the stone age mentalities that some other *ahem* religions find themselves in. In Christianity we realize that adherence to the law cannot redeem our sins, only the acceptance of Christ can do so.

You however, seem hell bent on blindly and robotically following the law, instead of allowing it to progress with temporal and ideological shifts.

[Sheep]

Perseveranze, did you watch that video? it seemed to me like it was an unspoken agreement among all of them that Christianity and Judaism have/had some 'bad bits' which they chose to 'drop'

he specifically said "most faiths work themselves out, to be interpreted, for people to drop verses that aren't any good, Christianity and Judaism many centuries ago got through this process of dropping the wicked and the violent verses, Islam has to do that now and it has to do it fast"

so instead of denying that Islam has any bad parts at all and is completely flawless and moral (even though it was made by a conquering warlord)

can you explain why muslims choose to ignore most of these immoral parts (I say 'most' because they do still practice a lot of immoral parts from the book such as inequality for women)

(Original post by .eXe)
Uh just to clarify for you, no Christian ever pretends that any part of the Bible "doesn't exist" as you incorrectly implied. We just recognize that God gave laws under contexts and in many cases, even specified the context (for example the old laws being given to the Israelites).

Oh and there's a reason Christianity isn't stuck in the stone age mentalities that some other *ahem* religions find themselves in. In Christianity we realize that adherence to the law cannot redeem our sins, only the acceptance of Christ can do so.

You however, seem hell bent on blindly and robotically following the law, instead of allowing it to progress with temporal and ideological shifts.

doesn't the fact that there were many parts of the bible that turned out to be wrong affect you in the slightest ?

I mean if Jesus is as he said he was, a prophet for the creator of universe (extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, for which there is absolutely none btw -lol), then surely all the parts that said things that contradicted evolution or were simply immoral, bronze age ideologies that have been since 'dropped', doesn't that sort of compromise the validity of the rest of the book?

You can't tell me that doesn't sow at least the slightest bit of doubt in your mind ? something which has no evidence to begin with is suddenly being piled with more and more evidence against it , just how much evidence against it would you need to be satisfied, if ever?

It kind of seems like desperation to me, clinging on to the hope that you will go to heaven when you die and that everything you have lived your life by wasn't a lie, but from an outsiders point of view, it doesn't even look like sanity

can you at least clarify how it is that you would choose to ignore something that is supposed to be 'the word of god', I can understand creationists who still believe in things like Adam and Eve and deny evolution etc lol, I can believe that they literally do think of the bible of the word of God, but the rest of Christianity? You would side with science and modern day morals etc rather than that which your holy book says ? I'm not exactly convinced of your conviction in these beliefs lol

[Hypocrism]

(Original post by .eXe)
Uh just to clarify for you, no Christian ever pretends that any part of the Bible "doesn't exist" as you incorrectly implied. We just recognize that God gave laws under contexts and in many cases, even specified the context (for example the old laws being given to the Israelites).

Oh and there's a reason Christianity isn't stuck in the stone age mentalities that some other *ahem* religions find themselves in. In Christianity we realize that adherence to the law cannot redeem our sins, only the acceptance of Christ can do so.

You however, seem hell bent on blindly and robotically following the law, instead of allowing it to progress with temporal and ideological shifts.

(Original post by Perseveranze)
No Muslim will ever pretend any part of the Qur'an doesn't exist, this isn't the Bible. The Qur'an, in every single letter, is the word of God.

All you have to do is ask a Muslim about things you have no clue about, and they'll explain it to you. But you don't ask, you just go to your priest or your EDL mate, and then say; "mhm, Muslims must ignore this even exists, otherwise they should be killing all the infidels!".

That's why there's a Ask about Islam Thread.

Stop arguing, you're both just defending people of your faith because that's what you have been convinced into believing, by your parents or by yourself.

Really, Christianity and Islam are exactly the same. There are parts of BOTH your religions that are either plain wrong or have been corrupted by humans. If you really believed, you'd accept that fact that humans can be wrong, and the texts were altered by humans (in the case of the Bible, we know this as fact. I don't know enough about Qu'ran) and that's why your "perfect god" seems to have (on first sight) made these contradictions, inaccuracies, and ****-ups.

Rant: You know, there are so many more important things than whichever delusion you believe in to give your pointless life a purpose. How about the fact we all have the same physiology, all of our cells come from ONE original billions of years ago, you both probably like chocolate, you enjoy academia (maybe you should also apply these skills to your religion for once!), and you are HUMANS with thoughts, feelings and desires. Stop giving religion such an important role in the way you approach your fellow man and keep it to yourself.

[.eXe]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
Stop arguing, you're both just defending people of your faith because that's what you have been convinced into believing, by your parents or by yourself.

Really, Christianity and Islam are exactly the same. There are parts of BOTH your religions that are either plain wrong or have been corrupted by humans. If you really believed, you'd accept that fact that humans can be wrong, and the texts were altered by humans (in the case of the Bible, we know this as fact. I don't know enough about Qu'ran) and that's why your "perfect god" seems to have (on first sight) made these contradictions, inaccuracies, and ****-ups.

Rant: You know, there are so many more important things than whichever delusion you believe in to give your pointless life a purpose. How about the fact we all have the same physiology, all of our cells come from ONE original billions of years ago, you both probably like chocolate, you enjoy academia (maybe you should also apply these skills to your religion for once!), and you are HUMANS with thoughts, feelings and desires. Stop giving religion such an important role in the way you approach your fellow man and keep it to yourself.

First off the Bible is never claimed to be the perfect book at any point. The God that the Bible is speaking of...is who Christians and Jews consider the perfect being. So the inaccuracies and contradictions and what not that you're pulling out of thin air, may exist but so what? Lol are you out of your mind?

Find me one single contradiction in the New Testament which in any way, shape, or form changes the nature of a) Jesus, b) God or c) Jesus' message.

Sure, there may be changes in translation, language, context, etc but what do you expect from a book that is millenia old?

Even a game of broken telephone gets screwed in about 10 people or so. What exactly are you expecting from thousand year old books?

It's the MESSAGE of the books that is important. You are so hell bent on figuring out each and every single word and inflection in the Bible, but you have absolutely zero understanding of the message in it.

You think your opinion holds any water?

A bunch of atheists are going to come pos rep you in a bit and boost your over inflated ego to the next level. Your understanding of the Bible, it's meaning, of Jesus or of God will remain rudimentary at best and you will never, ever be able to break out of the scepticism that is so firmly ingrained into your mind.

Atheists like you think they are somehow above the foolish religious folk. Buddy, do you honestly think ONLY atheists have the ability to think critically? How large is your ego really? Have you for a single second considered that theists believe in something because they know it to be true on a level greater than just an epistemological understanding?

Or are you that high in the clouds that such a possibility is utterly beneath you?

Oh and edit: just because I am a theist doesn't mean I don't understand and accept biological and physiological principles, scientific concepts, social issues, etc. FYI: I am in medical school. Just because I am a Christian doesn't mean I start ignoring every other important thing in life. Clearly education is something important to me, or are you that blind that you cannot see anything about me past my beliefs.

What a senseless argument. Don't post again (quoting me) if all you plan to do is take the middle ground and fish for rep.

[Hypocrism]

(Original post by .eXe)
First off the Bible is never claimed to be the perfect book at any point.

So the Bible isn't inspired by God? If it's not perfect, why do you have any reason to believe it?

The God that the Bible is speaking of...is who Christians and Jews consider the perfect being. So the inaccuracies and contradictions and what not that you're pulling out of thin air, may exist but so what? Lol are you out of your mind?

"So what?" The contradictions demonstrate imperfectness.

Find me one single contradiction in the New Testament which in any way, shape, or form changes the nature of a) Jesus, b) God or c) Jesus' message.

Jesus' ancestry
The inaccuracies in resurrection dialogues

You have two.

Sure, there may be changes in translation, language, context, etc but what do you expect from a book that is millenia old?

Even a game of broken telephone gets screwed in about 10 people or so. What exactly are you expecting from thousand year old books?

If it was God's book, why should it not protect it? Why not have its message remain unskewed? And, if we acknowledge there have been changes from the original text, how do we decide what is original and what is changed-how do you do what the OP is talking about: decide what to believe? How do we have any reason to believe the contents or believe in the divine nature of the text, if every word and every story is under such doubt?

It's the MESSAGE of the books that is important. You are so hell bent on figuring out each and every single word and inflection in the Bible, but you have absolutely zero understanding of the message in it.

I've read the entire Bible from a neutral perspective: as literature, before I became atheist. It's one of the worst-written books I've ever read. It is mostly boring, contains nothing but plot, makes no sense. If you stepped back and actually looked at what you were reading with objectivity, you would be SHOCKED. The message for Christians is to follow Christ. They need to slather that over multiple books just to make that point.

You think your opinion holds any water?

Of course it does. All opinions are relevant. If one person agrees with me, or if I spark even one bit of thought or discussion, I've successfully put my opinion across.

A bunch of atheists are going to come pos rep you in a bit and boost your over inflated ego to the next level. Your understanding of the Bible, it's meaning, of Jesus or of God will remain rudimentary at best and you will never, ever be able to break out of the scepticism that is so firmly ingrained into your mind.

Of course, the old "if you don't interpret the text exactly as I do, and believe what I do, you don't understand me". It's like a moody teenager having a hissy fit to her parents. I can read, therefore I'm just as qualified to comment on the contents of the Bible as you are.

[.eXe]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
~

Here I'll take care of your nonsense very quickly.

Let's say I write a book on evolution. Let's say I make lots of mistakes in it.

Does the fact that those mistakes are in there mean that the subject of the book is thereby also flawed? Or does it just mean that the book itself has issues?

I am not saying that the Bible has issues inherently, what I am saying is that over time, due to a multitude of translations, etc...it is only logical that there will be differences in different versions.

However, you're forgetting one thing...there exists an original pieces of the Bible (the original scrolls for example) which have no mistake at all...no translational error, no removal or addition of verses, etc.

So for you to say that the Bible is inherently a book of mistakes and contradictions is false.

Secondly, what about Jesus' ancestry? Are you going to elaborate or just leave me to assume what you mean? In terms of the resurrection dialogues, you have to understand that the Bible at the end of the day was written by human beings (through inspiration), rather than by God himself. If the Bible were written by God, we'd all just worship the book as a holy script. When human beings write something, sure there will definitely be different perspectives involved and thus there are differences in dialogue, narration, etc. For all you know, one of the authors was partially deaf and could not hear 100% and thus his version differed slightly. So what?? What exactly does that prove?

The overarching message does not change.

What was important was that Jesus died and was resurrected as the old testament foretold.

You are conveniently missing the message and rather focussing entirely on the rhetoric.

This is not how books like the Bible are to be read and understood.

[Hypocrism]

I really don't want to get into a flaming war, I make a serious post about the OP and start getting accused of hating theists? Golly. May as well sort it out.

(Original post by .eXe)
Atheists like you think they are somehow above the foolish religious folk.

I didn't give that impression ANYWHERE in my posts. Criticism of religion or religions text is NOT criticism of religious people. My posts in this threat are clearly aimed at criticising religious texts. In my "rant" I point out that religion drives people to approach other humans in a way dominated by their beliefs, something I consider unjustified based on the criticisms I've made of holy texts. You interpreted this a personal attack, which it is not. Sadly when people believe so strongly in something, attacking it appears personal to them, and that's why simple debates spark such high emotions.

And, you are a hypocrite. You clearly see yourself "above the foolish Muslim folk" with your pretentious statements like "Oh and there's a reason Christianity isn't stuck in the stone age mentalities that some other *ahem* religions find themselves in." Don't you realise how cocky that makes you sound? You have no moral high ground just because you've accepted Jesus.

Buddy, do you honestly think ONLY atheists have the ability to think critically? How large is your ego really? Have you for a single second considered that theists believe in something because they know it to be true on a level greater than just an epistemological understanding?

Or are you that high in the clouds that such a possibility is utterly beneath you?

Again, I did not give that impression. Where did I say that theists don't think critically? Have I even mentioned theists? No, I'm posting about the topic-religious texts and their interpretation. I think you'll find you've had an instinctive knee-jerk reaction to my post.

(Also, arguments that there is a greater level of truth are weak. But we won't get into that here.)

Oh and edit: just because I am a theist doesn't mean I don't understand and accept biological and physiological principles, scientific concepts, social issues, etc.

I didn't say it implied that, did I now?

Just because I am a Christian doesn't mean I start ignoring every other important thing in life. Clearly education is something important to me, or are you that blind that you cannot see anything about me past my beliefs.

I didn't say you ignore the important things. I said you give religion to high a purpose when you interact with other people. This is clear from the way you approach people on this forum, including the response you gave my post, and specifically how you consider yourself superior to Muslims.

What a senseless argument. Don't post again (quoting me) if all you plan to do is take the middle ground and fish for rep.

Yeah, if I was fishing for rep, I'd totally make a post that says anything that could possibly be construed as negative about Islam

[Sheep]

(Original post by .eXe)
First off the Bible is never claimed to be the perfect book at any point. The God that the Bible is speaking of...is who Christians and Jews consider the perfect being. So the inaccuracies and contradictions and what not that you're pulling out of thin air, may exist but so what? Lol are you out of your mind?

Find me one single contradiction in the New Testament which in any way, shape, or form changes the nature of a) Jesus, b) God or c) Jesus' message.

Sure, there may be changes in translation, language, context, etc but what do you expect from a book that is millenia old?

Even a game of broken telephone gets screwed in about 10 people or so. What exactly are you expecting from thousand year old books?

It's the MESSAGE of the books that is important. You are so hell bent on figuring out each and every single word and inflection in the Bible, but you have absolutely zero understanding of the message in it.

You think your opinion holds any water?

A bunch of atheists are going to come pos rep you in a bit and boost your over inflated ego to the next level. Your understanding of the Bible, it's meaning, of Jesus or of God will remain rudimentary at best and you will never, ever be able to break out of the scepticism that is so firmly ingrained into your mind.

Atheists like you think they are somehow above the foolish religious folk. Buddy, do you honestly think ONLY atheists have the ability to think critically? How large is your ego really? Have you for a single second considered that theists believe in something because they know it to be true on a level greater than just an epistemological understanding?

Or are you that high in the clouds that such a possibility is utterly beneath you?

Oh and edit: just because I am a theist doesn't mean I don't understand and accept biological and physiological principles, scientific concepts, social issues, etc. FYI: I am in medical school. Just because I am a Christian doesn't mean I start ignoring every other important thing in life. Clearly education is something important to me, or are you that blind that you cannot see anything about me past my beliefs.

What a senseless argument. Don't post again (quoting me) if all you plan to do is take the middle ground and fish for rep.

becoming emotional and angry is not any way to have a rational debate

also your excuses are very poor ...

Sure, there may be changes in translation, language, context, etc but what do you expect from a book that is millenia old?

Even a game of broken telephone gets screwed in about 10 people or so. What exactly are you expecting from thousand year old books?

I think you'll find the literature is more irrational the older it is, the closest things to the original are the most whacky and flawed

it is the opposite of 'game of broken telephone' in a way, because you start with a bunch of bronze age mumbo jumbo that doesn't make a lot of sense and over time , religious scholars have dusted it up to remove faults and make it more believable

though none of that matters in comparison to the fact that there is no reason to believe any of it in the first place but oh well

but you say that we shouldn't focus on the specific stories, verses etc, and dismiss all flaws that we see because the overlying message is important lol

you also say thing like

What was important was that Jesus died and was resurrected as the old testament foretold.

which is incredibly irrational and unscientifically stupid

[.eXe]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
I didn't give that impression ANYWHERE in my posts. Criticism of religion or religions text is NOT criticism of religious people. My posts in this threat are clearly aimed at criticising religious texts. In my "rant" I point out that religion drives people to approach other humans in a way dominated by their beliefs, something I consider unjustified based on the criticisms I've made of holy texts. You interpreted this a personal attack, which it is not. Sadly when people believe so strongly in something, attacking it appears personal to them, and that's why simple debates spark such high emotions.

The very first thing you posted basically said that I am deluded. "either my parents or I have convinced myself to believe". You basically treat religious belief as deluded fluff, so I don't know why you are getting all morally upright now and saying otherwise. You criticized by belief and then went the next step of criticizing me by implying that my belief is just something I or my parents have made ourselves believe (meaning it cannot be true...it's just that we have deluded ourselves to believe it is).

Yeah, you were only criticizing the religion, my mistake I know exactly what you were saying buddy, I was an atheist for 19 years. I've had much more heated arguments with my own family about this stuff. Nothing you are saying is novel in any way.

And, you are a hypocrite. You clearly see yourself "above the foolish Muslim folk" with your pretentious statements like "Oh and there's a reason Christianity isn't stuck in the stone age mentalities that some other *ahem* religions find themselves in." Don't you realise how cocky that makes you sound? You have no moral high ground just because you've accepted Jesus.

Wow that's a ridiculous judgement. I am not at all above anyone...and definitely not above muslims. I have only ever criticized Islam...never muslims. I don't even criticize Perseveranze as much as I would like to sometimes. The fact that a large proportion of my personal and family friends are muslim is a testament that I am no bigot nor hypocrite. I have nothing at all against muslims nor do I consider myself superior to them.

Again, I did not give that impression. Where did I say that theists don't think critically? Have I even mentioned theists? No, I'm posting about the topic-religious texts and their interpretation. I think you'll find you've had an instinctive knee-jerk reaction to my post.

Clearly your style of argument is very pedantic. Apparently, you have to "say" something for it to be your opinion. If you imply it in any way...according to you it's not the same as saying it outright. Earlier you implied that religious beliefs were just things I had convinced myself of being true...and that there existed no possibility that they were true...it was only my delusion which made them true.

This is what you implied. If you deny it then you are outright lying.

(Also, arguments that there is a greater level of truth are weak. But we won't get into that here.)

I can recognize that. But from my perspective, there aren't many solid, scientific arguments that can be made for religion any ways. If they could, it wouldn't be religion any more and it certainly wouldn't require belief. But we won't get into that here.

I didn't say it implied that, did I now?

If there was no implication then what was your reason for mentioning that point in the first place? if you mentioned it purely to tell me that there are other things which should have precedence then again, what gave you the impression I am not aware of them?

I didn't say you ignore the important things. I said you give religion to high a purpose when you interact with other people. This is clear from the way you approach people on this forum, including the response you gave my post, and specifically how you consider yourself superior to Muslims.

Well again, I do not consider myself superior to muslims. This is a nonsense accusation you've made against me because of my arguments against Islam. Let me clarify something quite simple for you...attacking a religion =/= attacking the adherents. Moving on.

Yes, you are right about the first thing. In certain areas of life, I do give precedence to religion. Does that mean that I forget my professional duties as a doctor? Nope. Does it mean I becomes a recluse in my room studying the Bible? Nope. Does it mean I hate all non-Christians? Nope. Does it mean I give up on all my critical thinking faculties and give in solely to belief and delusion? Nope. Does it mean I stop questioning the very book I believe in? Nope. All of these things you think I do are wrong. Just because I give the Bible and its teaching precedence does not at all mean that I have ignored every other vital aspect of my life. I am still as human as any one else and must tend to all my other needs that come with being a human. The only additional thing I do is believe in a deity. Besides that...I am the exact same as anyone else. Not superior nor inferior.