[kingcoltzan]

Guys,

Opinions on this?

If I were to do AAT (as a school leaver) then ACA at a Top 10 firm, would I suffer from discrimination later on in life when it came to swapping firms/ into industry? Or would people see the ACA from a respected company and ignore not having a degree. I don't currently see myself as an accountant in 20 years, but maybe I will love it?

Everyone has a different opinion on this, obviously... so what do you guys think? My opinion stands currently that within the company no problems would arise, but the second I stepped out of the company the top top tiers (IB...consultancy, top top job) would frown upon me for not having a degree.

Thoughts?

[Tokyoround]

To some extent yes. If you look at the "about us" or "our/the team" section on most companies sites, they almost always list the directors'/officers' qualifications and experience. It's a way of marketing them as trustworthy, upstanding/reputable persons without you meeting them if that makes any sense. That's not to say there aren't those who make it to the top without a degree but they usually have outstanding experience/charisma to make up for it. I'd say grab every opportunity you can, get involved with your firm as much as possible and the rest will follow.

[gonnabesomething]

I'd only recommend school leavers' with Big4 as you can meet many high profile people when you do audits etc. and you'll probably be able to move about and get jobs through networking rather than applying through normal routes, not that you won't meet big clients outside big4, but you stand a better chance of mingling with a big guy in a FTSE 100 firm who likes what they see and can get you into the company...and then you can gradually move around industries with experience via the people you meet.

However, the above is unlikely, I don't know how many people get offered jobs whilst on client sites, it seems quite a few do, but it's a risk. I know with PwC they give you a chance to obtain a degree from Oxford Brookes University, so all is not lost. I was considering that scheme myself. I'd passed the first interview however all places were gone and they only had tax whereby I'd do ATT and then CTA but it isn't really what I wanted. If you do quick company searches, if you're going to apply through normal routes, many want applicants to be 'educated to degree level', and it's stated as a requirement. It's a bit silly really, because if I have a degree in History and then do the ACA and then move into Internal Audit at BP, in what way is this person more qualified for the job than someone who has done the AAT and then the ACA and qualified sooner?

It's harsh and it doesn't look like employers, certainly the bigger firms - which is where I assume most want to progress, will be changing their tune anytime soon. If you can get onto a school leaver scheme whereby you also obtain a degree, like at PwC, I'd say go for it, as they pay for your fees, accommodation and living expenses (I believe). But otherwise, do a degree, take the £40,000 hit (which, by the time you qualify as an accountant, you won't really feel it as it'll literally be pennies coming out of your wage packet when you consider the salary you'll be on). It's an investment in the future, employers for some bizarre reason like people educated to degree level.

[kingcoltzan]

(Original post by gonnabesomething)
I'd only recommend school leavers' with Big4 as you can meet many high profile people when you do audits etc. and you'll probably be able to move about and get jobs through networking rather than applying through normal routes, not that you won't meet big clients outside big4, but you stand a better chance of mingling with a big guy in a FTSE 100 firm who likes what they see and can get you into the company...and then you can gradually move around industries with experience via the people you meet.

However, the above is unlikely, I don't know how many people get offered jobs whilst on client sites, it seems quite a few do, but it's a risk. I know with PwC they give you a chance to obtain a degree from Oxford Brookes University, so all is not lost. I was considering that scheme myself. I'd passed the first interview however all places were gone and they only had tax whereby I'd do ATT and then CTA but it isn't really what I wanted. If you do quick company searches, if you're going to apply through normal routes, many want applicants to be 'educated to degree level', and it's stated as a requirement. It's a bit silly really, because if I have a degree in History and then do the ACA and then move into Internal Audit at BP, in what way is this person more qualified for the job than someone who has done the AAT and then the ACA and qualified sooner?

It's harsh and it doesn't look like employers, certainly the bigger firms - which is where I assume most want to progress, will be changing their tune anytime soon. If you can get onto a school leaver scheme whereby you also obtain a degree, like at PwC, I'd say go for it, as they pay for your fees, accommodation and living expenses (I believe). But otherwise, do a degree, take the £40,000 hit (which, by the time you qualify as an accountant, you won't really feel it as it'll literally be pennies coming out of your wage packet when you consider the salary you'll be on). It's an investment in the future, employers for some bizarre reason like people educated to degree level.

I know its an investment, but the decision I have to make is clearing or this. And I know, a degree is all that is needed, but seriously...a poor degree at a poor university just so I can get a degree? (subject to clearing availabilities...) Really??

I think I am going to have to go with the AAT ACA route and make the most of it.

On your point about employers - I predict (hammer me in 20 years if I am wrong!) that the job market will turn.... with the student fees, debt etc etc...London offices have started offering AAT which hasn't (as far as I know?) been offered for more than a few years. Previously, AAT was a more regional thing, but now it seems the big companies are seeing the opportunity. Whether this translates down the line to people not discriminating because of no degree, I don't know.

But mark my words, I am not going to let not having a degree stop me from getting where I want

Thanks for the advice

[boba]

if you don't see yourself as an accountant in 20 years why would you get into via this route? surely if you do a degree at least if you decide you don't want to be an accountant anymore you will have the degree.

[gonnabesomething]

(Original post by kingcoltzan)
I know its an investment, but the decision I have to make is clearing or this. And I know, a degree is all that is needed, but seriously...a poor degree at a poor university just so I can get a degree? (subject to clearing availabilities...) Really??I think I am going to have to go with the AAT ACA route and make the most of it.On your point about employers - I predict (hammer me in 20 years if I am wrong!) that the job market will turn.... with the student fees, debt etc etc...London offices have started offering AAT which hasn't (as far as I know?) been offered for more than a few years. Previously, AAT was a more regional thing, but now it seems the big companies are seeing the opportunity. Whether this translates down the line to people not discriminating because of no degree, I don't know. But mark my words, I am not going to let not having a degree stop me from getting where I want Thanks for the advice

Well, you only do a poor degree at a poor university if you want to.

If you go and study Economics or something at a lower ranking university, it won't matter really. They do have standards. In fact if you study A&F at lower ranked unis, you'll still get a load of exemptions from ICAEW, and they govern the exams. They wouldn't provide credit for prior learning opportunities if they didn't feel the exams were rigorous enough. It's your choice, you may come to regret it later on if you try and move into industry. Like I said, Big4 gives you great amount of prestige and status and employers at bigger firms may give you the chance to explain why you never went to uni etc. But if you go to a smaller less well known firm, they see some guy with an Economics BSc from Portsmouth and then they see your application which shows BBC A-level as the end of your 'formal' education and you both have ACA, they may go for the other guy. I can see where you're coming from, but thinking the top 30 unis are everything is a big misconception.

Also, I assume you are waiting for results. Did you apply to do A&F? If not, then you probably want to find out if accounting really is for you. The good thing about a degree is that you study, become more qualified and it also gives you time to research accountancy and the ACA. It's a big commitment, and switching from doing a degree to doing AAT is pretty big.

[Big_Dave]

(Original post by gonnabesomething)
I'd only recommend school leavers' with Big4 as you can meet many high profile people when you do audits etc. and you'll probably be able to move about and get jobs through networking rather than applying through normal routes, not that you won't meet big clients outside big4, but you stand a better chance of mingling with a big guy in a FTSE 100 firm who likes what they see and can get you into the company...and then you can gradually move around industries with experience via the people you meet.

However, the above is unlikely, I don't know how many people get offered jobs whilst on client sites, it seems quite a few do, but it's a risk. I know with PwC they give you a chance to obtain a degree from Oxford Brookes University, so all is not lost. I was considering that scheme myself. I'd passed the first interview however all places were gone and they only had tax whereby I'd do ATT and then CTA but it isn't really what I wanted. If you do quick company searches, if you're going to apply through normal routes, many want applicants to be 'educated to degree level', and it's stated as a requirement. It's a bit silly really, because if I have a degree in History and then do the ACA and then move into Internal Audit at BP, in what way is this person more qualified for the job than someone who has done the AAT and then the ACA and qualified sooner?

It's harsh and it doesn't look like employers, certainly the bigger firms - which is where I assume most want to progress, will be changing their tune anytime soon. If you can get onto a school leaver scheme whereby you also obtain a degree, like at PwC, I'd say go for it, as they pay for your fees, accommodation and living expenses (I believe). But otherwise, do a degree, take the £40,000 hit (which, by the time you qualify as an accountant, you won't really feel it as it'll literally be pennies coming out of your wage packet when you consider the salary you'll be on). It's an investment in the future, employers for some bizarre reason like people educated to degree level.

Actually, in my experience this is wrong. Once you get the ACA (via any route) it superceeds all your other qualifications. The only thing people will be looking for on an NQ CV is there experience and if they have first time passes.

Firms have actually started to take on ACA trainees straight from A-level now, so skipping out the AAT all together.

[gonnabesomething]

(Original post by Big_Dave)
Actually, in my experience this is wrong. Once you get the ACA (via any route) it superceeds all your other qualifications. The only thing people will be looking for on an NQ CV is there experience and if they have first time passes. Firms have actually started to take on ACA trainees straight from A-level now, so skipping out the AAT all together.

I'm talking about after the NQ stage though. Later on when you want to progress, whilst some have got there without degrees, the majority have them. Like I said something like a traditional application to a FTSE 100 company would be tough without degree level education. Ie BP - I was considering school leavers' until I started doing searches for further down the line.

You could still do very well, don't get me wrong, I guess it depends on what you want to do with your ACA.

Also, which firms offer ACA straight to school leavers'? Even the big4 require you to study AAT...even top 10,(bar PwC who enter you for ACCA) so I can't see which, if any, firm offers that route? Otherwise I'd take that up. Qualified by the age of 21

[Big_Dave]

(Original post by gonnabesomething)
I'm talking about after the NQ stage though. Later on when you want to progress, whilst some have got there without degrees, the majority have them. Like I said something like a traditional application to a FTSE 100 company would be tough without degree level education. Ie BP - I was considering school leavers' until I started doing searches for further down the line.

You could still do very well, don't get me wrong, I guess it depends on what you want to do with your ACA.

Also, which firms offer ACA straight to school leavers'? Even the big4 require you to study AAT...even top 10,(bar PwC who enter you for ACCA) so I can't see which, if any, firm offers that route? Otherwise I'd take that up. Qualified by the age of 21

Past the NQ stage a degree matters less.......... In fact the longer your career progresses the less your degree matters until it is literally a foot note on your CV.

Having/not-having a degree is never going to be a discriminator for an experienced hire. For someone say 5 year post qual no matter where your applying (FTSE 100, Big 4, IB) they are not going to care if you have a degree they will look at your experience...... The only way I can see it going against you is if your head to head with another candidate and you both have exactly the same experience, exactly the same skill set and exactly the same profile, in short - highly unlikely.

The only reason most people in the top jobs in finance have degrees at the moment is that the AAT has not been around that long and the percentage of people doing the AAT - ACA compared to Degree - ACA is still very small.

The main advantage of degree vs AAT is that it gives you choice, so if you do change your mind you have plenty of options........

Not many firms do this, I met a guy at college who trained at a small firm in Essex - Bird Luckin who sat the ACA straight from A-level. It was a 5 year contract though compared to the traditional 3.

[Big_Dave]

Also going to uni is amazing and is an absolutely banging 3 years.

[kingcoltzan]

(Original post by Big_Dave)
Past the NQ stage a degree matters less.......... In fact the longer your career progresses the less your degree matters until it is literally a foot note on your CV.

Having/not-having a degree is never going to be a discriminator for an experienced hire. For someone say 5 year post qual no matter where your applying (FTSE 100, Big 4, IB) they are not going to care if you have a degree they will look at your experience...... The only way I can see it going against you is if your head to head with another candidate and you both have exactly the same experience, exactly the same skill set and exactly the same profile, in short - highly unlikely.

The only reason most people in the top jobs in finance have degrees at the moment is that the AAT has not been around that long and the percentage of people doing the AAT - ACA compared to Degree - ACA is still very small.

The main advantage of degree vs AAT is that it gives you choice, so if you do change your mind you have plenty of options........

Not many firms do this, I met a guy at college who trained at a small firm in Essex - Bird Luckin who sat the ACA straight from A-level. It was a 5 year contract though compared to the traditional 3.

But that is exactly the same surely as doing a 2+3 year AAT+ACA?! Except you have AAT as well?

This is what I was thinking/hoping. I know I want to be in business, and the ACA would allow me to do that, so that it seems I think is what I am going to go for.

I have got my grades. IB (roughly) equivalent to 2A* 2A 2B

[Big_Dave]

(Original post by kingcoltzan)
But that is exactly the same surely as doing a 2+3 year AAT+ACA?! Except you have AAT as well?

This is what I was thinking/hoping. I know I want to be in business, and the ACA would allow me to do that, so that it seems I think is what I am going to go for.

I have got my grades. IB (roughly) equivalent to 2A* 2A 2B

Again the ACA superceeds the AAT, although you can keep the initials after your name!

If you do take the AAT route definitely try and do it at a top 10 firm.

Apart from you get paid the salary of an exam qualified ACA a lot sooner on the straight ACA contract!

[kingcoltzan]

(Original post by Big_Dave)
Again the ACA superceeds the AAT, although you can keep the initials after your name!

If you do take the AAT route definitely try and do it at a top 10 firm.

Apart from you get paid the salary of an exam qualified ACA a lot sooner on the straight ACA contract!

It's 8th.

[GlassesFreak]

If you look for jobs now in an ideal industry, you could see if they require a degree?

Some experienced hires jobs Ive seen require a degree.

[Big_Dave]

(Original post by GlassesFreak)
If you look for jobs now in an ideal industry, you could see if they require a degree?

Some experienced hires jobs Ive seen require a degree.

If you had the AAT - ACA from a top ten firm, I doubt they would auto-reject you for not having a degree. These roles are the exception rather than the rule with most specifying qualified accountant, first time passes for the top roles (Banking etc)

[GlassesFreak]

(Original post by Big_Dave)
If you had the AAT - ACA from a top ten firm, I doubt they would auto-reject you for not having a degree. These roles are the exception rather than the rule with most specifying qualified accountant, first time passes for the top roles (Banking etc)

True, but not everyone knows or cares about reputation of accountancy companies. If the OP's aim was to work as a partner in a small firm, it would be different than aiming for a job in industry for a multinational company.

I think my advice would be to go to university. You can study what you want and might even change your mind seeing as your not committed to accountancy. You can always revisit the route when you qualify.

[poony]

Why would anyone go for the AAT and ACA route but didn't want to be an accountant as career is beyond me.

A poor degree at poor uni. won't get a ACA training contract anyway.

I worked for the big four for more than 10 years and seldom met any of my fellow colleague with got a poor degree at poor uni.

[gonnabesomething]

(Original post by poony)
Why would anyone go for the AAT and ACA route but didn't want to be an accountant as career is beyond me.

A poor degree at poor uni. won't get a ACA training contract anyway.

I worked for the big four for more than 10 years and seldom met any of my fellow colleague with got a poor degree at poor uni.

Would you say Economics BSc from Portsmouth is 'poor'?

[kingcoltzan]

(Original post by gonnabesomething)
Would you say Economics BSc from Portsmouth is 'poor'?

Just from my preconceptions and without any knowledge of the Econ dept, I would say yes, but I am quite biased about unis. The subject though is solid.

[Brotherhood]

(Original post by poony)
Why would anyone go for the AAT and ACA route but didn't want to be an accountant as career is beyond me.

A poor degree at poor uni. won't get a ACA training contract anyway.

I worked for the big four for more than 10 years and seldom met any of my fellow colleague with got a poor degree at poor uni.

A couple in my year but not many. Uni that is, wouldn't consider the degrees particularly poor.