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Can't believe Turan was only booked
Original post by Zander01
And some people still think that messi is 'physically weak and would be able to hand the premier league'.

Idiots should have watched this game



But it is not Stoke on a cold and wet Monday night :rolleyes:.
That Turan moment will take some beating for football's most bizarre incident this year.
Turan :lol:
Good to see Torres having a bit of bite back in his game.
Man was sleeping on Griezmann but I knew(and CB91). **** I wish this guy played for Chelsea all we had to do was pay £25M. Didn't watch rest of 2nd half but I think Atlético simply pressed too high up after going to 2-1 and Luis Enrique just exposed their average speed backline with the pace and movement of Suarez, Messi and Neymar. Atlético should have calmed down after that initial burst and then sit back as they were dominating Barça.

Messi was amazing today, guy has the eye for a pass and does it so calmly, it's as if everybody is on his wavelength and he'll always find you. I also think players are more willing to bust a gut for Messi's passes(see Alba for Neymar's second goal)
two game ban for Ronaldo is an utter joke :lol:
Original post by jam277
Man was sleeping on Griezmann but I knew(and CB91). **** I wish this guy played for Chelsea all we had to do was pay £25M. Didn't watch rest of 2nd half but I think Atlético simply pressed too high up after going to 2-1 and Luis Enrique just exposed their average speed backline with the pace and movement of Suarez, Messi and Neymar. Atlético should have calmed down after that initial burst and then sit back as they were dominating Barça.

Messi was amazing today, guy has the eye for a pass and does it so calmly, it's as if everybody is on his wavelength and he'll always find you. I also think players are more willing to bust a gut for Messi's passes(see Alba for Neymar's second goal)


Crazy that Griezmann was only picked up last summer, 25m is a bargain really.

Apparently Simeone said Messi is more dangerous than Ronaldo, Bale and Benzema combined. :teehee:


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Original post by CB91
Crazy that Griezmann was only picked up last summer, 25m is a bargain really.


It was the perfect move for Griezmann.

The bloke's 24 in a month; he's the team's most incisive attacking threat; he doesn't have the transition issue of moving to another league; and if he can remain consistent and injury-free he's guaranteed a move to the crème de la crème in Europe.

Apparently Simeone said Messi is more dangerous than Ronaldo, Bale and Benzema combined. :teehee:


I'm surprised he didn't add James and Isco for good measure.
Original post by Stalin
It was the perfect move for Griezmann.

The bloke's 24 in a month; he's the team's most incisive attacking threat; he doesn't have the transition issue of moving to another league; and if he can remain consistent and injury-free he's guaranteed a move to the crème de la crème in Europe.

Na I'd disagree. He could have easily just gone to Chelsea and he would easily have started, same for United and Arsenal. Only place he'd have struggled to get a game is City and now he's shown how good a striker he is as well as being a top class winger so he would easily start for them now over Navas/Nasri or Dzeko.

He'll probably stay at Atlético for now anyway, they have investment coming in from a multi billion pound corporation, so will be better financially. They are capable of keeping players unless the release clause has been paid and they get fair prices for the players(see Falcao, Costa, Filipe) and have very talented young players such as Saul, Koke, Giménez with the likes of Leo and Olivér doing well on loan, they already e.g. have ready made replacements for the ageing players such as Miranda/Godín/Tiago/Gabi/Mandzukic/Torres.
Reply 7050
Original post by jam277
Didn't watch rest of 2nd half but I think Atlético simply pressed too high up after going to 2-1 and Luis Enrique just exposed their average speed backline with the pace and movement of Suarez, Messi and Neymar. Atlético should have calmed down after that initial burst and then sit back



Had Atlético sit back, they would have risked throwing the tie away even more. Firstly, they needed a goal, and their usual score-from-a-corner or score-from-a-counter approach doesn't work as well anymore as Barça's defence and defending (especially on set pieces) has improved majorly and is now actually quite decent. Secondly, sitting back against Barça won't give them the same security as it used to, on the one hand because Barça have shown that they're quite capable now of opening their tight defence, on the other because Atléti's defensive line has declined a lot compared with last season. Atléti were outplayed in the last two matches vs Barça, in the first one more than in the second, and needed a different approach to this game if they wanted a chance of going through, and pressing Barça to exploit the weaker, now merely supporting midfield was the way to go - that Barcelona performed so well on the counter wasn't predictable simply because they haven't executed that style for a long time.

as they were dominating Barça.

That's a very simple analysis. They were in control in parts of the first half, meaning they put increased amount of pressure on Barça in Barça's half while Barça sit back, had little possession and saw their mf cut through regularly. But first, these were merely periods while all in all the half was very end-to-end, second, even during those periods, Atléti didn't get to produce enough acute danger to make anything out of the situation while it was Barça who had the better or clearer chances (one of which was Neymar's offside goal, which potentially should have stood), and thirdly, it's hugely debatable whether Barça's approach to the first part of the game was reactive, as in not being able to do anything else and take control, or rather proactive and part of the plan. Looking at some of the other recent games and seeing a pattern, I'm inclined to think it's the latter.

Lucho likes to switch between periods of sitting back (with all 3 forwards contributing hugely defensively) & bursting out in quick direct attacks and counters on the one hand, and dominating possession & combining around the opponent's box on the other. The idea behind that is partly tactical, seeing as most opponents sit back and hope for über-possession with any real determination, and partly practical, as that the midfield, at least while Iniesta is off-form, is the weakest since the mid 2000s, while the attack is arguably better than it's ever been. Hence the mf takes a more supporting than creating role for large parts of the game. This is what happened in this game, and it worked quite well throughout the whole game. How much of it was indeed planned is just speculation, but there's been a pattern.

I agree however that Barcelona weren't in control as much as in the previous 2 games, but IMO still brought the right approach to the game and in the end the victory was deserved. Will be interesting to see how the next league game between the two will look - Atléti didn't execute their approach as well as they could in this game, but then on the other side, Barcelona's midfield was still underperforming, so both teams have room for improvement and could be even stronger.

As for refereeing decisions in this game: Griezmann-Alba incident should have been a penalty, the Juanfran penalty shouldn't (much much more questionable than Busquets' one...), Neymar's goal should probably have stood, Gabi's sending off is impossible to comment on but surely Mario Suárez could have been sent off much earlier in the game.
___

Generally speaking, two major things that Atlético need to improve on: One, they slowly but surely need a new defensive concept. Too many of their players in defence are declining, while others simply aren't good enough. Moving Koke to the middle will be a first step to help this, but sooner or later they need some better reinforcements than Siqueira. The other is that the lack of discipline is getting OTT. Playing physical is well and good, but the way they tend to lose it as the game progresses is only causing problems for themselves (even ignoring the fact that it's ugly to watch too). They're just shooting themselves in the foot with it.
(edited 9 years ago)
^ You know when you've been Qua'ed.
Oliver Torres will be one of the best players in the world.
Original post by qua
Had Atlético sit back, they would have risked throwing the tie away even more. Firstly, they needed a goal, and their usual score-from-a-corner or score-from-a-counter approach doesn't work as well anymore as Barça's defence and defending (especially on set pieces) has improved majorly and is now actually quite decent. Secondly, sitting back against Barça won't give them the same security as it used to, on the one hand because Barça have shown that they're quite capable now of opening their tight defence, on the other because Atléti's defensive line has declined a lot compared with last season. Atléti were outplayed in the last two matches vs Barça, in the first one more than in the second, and needed a different approach to this game if they wanted a chance of going through, and pressing Barça to exploit the weaker, now merely supporting midfield was the way to go - that Barcelona performed so well on the counter wasn't predictable simply because they haven't executed that style for a long time.

I get that point. I was more saying that it's hard for Atlético to play that style for 90mins. Maybe they were hoping to get 2/3 goals quickly then sit back with the odd burst but Barcelona didn't allow that. I was saying before that Atlético's initial approach to the game had to be a fast tempo high pressing start, but it's impossible to maintain for 90mins. Not to mention that their lack of speed at CB and the LBs poor positioning will be exploited by Barça's front three.

That's a very simple analysis. They were in control in parts of the first half, meaning they put increased amount of pressure on Barça in Barça's half while Barça sit back, had little possession and saw their mf cut through regularly. But first, these were merely periods while all in all the half was very end-to-end, second, even during those periods, Atléti didn't get to produce enough acute danger to make anything out of the situation while it was Barça who had the better and clearer chances (one of which was Neymar's offside goal, which potentially should have stood), and thirdly, it's hugely debatable whether Barça's approach to the first part of the game was reactive, as in not being able to do anything else and take control, or rather proactive and part of the plan. Looking at some of the other recent games and seeing a pattern, I'm inclined to think it's the latter.

Possibly it was a tactical plan from Luis Enrique to hit on the counter attack and exploit their high line. I'm not disagreeing with that. Neither am I disagreeing that Atlético were unable to make full use of their periods of control in the first half, dominating is probably the wrong word, but they did look domineering over Barcelona for periods of the first half. From what I saw though, Barça were clearly struggling to get a hold of the game. But it goes to show that Barcelona can be a fantastic counter attacking team if they wanted to be. Maybe that's the whole point of using supportive midfielders rather than making them the main part of the play. Iniesta or Xavi being the main part of the play means more short passing but Suarez and Neymar are more capable of playing a direct/counter attacking style of football, as they've shown they can do on international level or at previous clubs.

Lucho likes to switch between periods of sitting back (with all 3 forwards contributing hugely defensively) & bursting out in quick direct attacks and counters on the one hand, and dominating possession & combining around the opponent's box on the other. The idea behind that is partly tactical, seeing as most opponents sit back and hope for über-possession with any real determination, and partly practical, as that the midfield, at least while Iniesta is off-form, is the weakest since the mid 2000s, while the attack is arguably better than it's ever been. Hence the mf takes a more supporting than creating role for large parts of the game. This is what happened in this game, and it worked quite well throughout the whole game. How much of it was indeed planned is just speculation, but there's been a pattern.

Yeah, the whole point of the new system is for Luis Enrique to use the forwards strengths instead of the declining midfield. Which was why he makes the CMs play wider than they did previously.

I agree however that Barcelona weren't in control as much as in the previous 2 games, but IMO still brought the right approach to the game and in the end the victory was deserved. Will be interesting to see how the next league game between the two will look - Atléti didn't execute their approach as well as they could in this game, but then on the other side, Barcelona's midfield was still underperforming, so both teams have room for improvement and could be even stronger.

No doubt victory was deserved. Barcelona were the better team over the two legs, Atlético did show at periods that they could have also won the tie, but simply they were poor in the first leg and that left them with a lot to do in the second leg. Chasing games vs Barca who now have an ability to counter at pace and keep the ball is not an ideal situation.

As for refereeing decisions in this game: Griezmann-Alba incident should have been a penalty, the Juanfran penalty shouldn't (much much more questionable than Busquets' one...), Neymar's goal should probably have stood, Gabi's sending off is impossible to comment on but surely Mario Suárez could have been sent off much earlier in the game.
___

Generally speaking, two major things that Atlético need to improve on: One, they slowly but surely need a new defensive concept. Too many of their players in defence are declining, while others simply aren't good enough. Moving Koke to the middle will be a first step to help this, but sooner or later they need some better reinforcements than Siqueira. The other is that the lack of discipline is getting OTT. Playing physical is well and good, but the way they tend to lose it as the game progresses is only causing problems for themselves (even ignoring the fact that it's ugly to watch too). They're just shooting themselves in the foot with it.

Yeah, a lot of questionable refereeing in that match, think he wanted to keep the spirit of the game alive or something and didn't want to kill it off quick with a Mario Suarez red card.

Think the first problem is also down to a lack of Costa, think they are under more pressure now they don't have an outlet as good as Costa. Griezmann and Torres solves this to an extent but Costa's work off the ball to the channels and hold up play did a lot for them. No obvious outlet means more pressure to your goal. Siqueira doesn't help the issue too.

Second problem is just a case of things not going well for them. Guarantee that if they were at the top of the league this season and faced Barcelona, they would be less aggressive and wouldn't lose it during games, Real used to do the exact same thing but they've calmed down a bit after the season they've just had. While they're not really under considerable pressure to win the league like the other two are, they want to replicate last seasons efforts. When they're losing in a game vs Barça and then Barcelona just keep possession they're going to get aggressive. They do need to keep a cool head though but easier said than done.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by jam277
Na I'd disagree. He could have easily just gone to Chelsea and he would easily have started, same for United and Arsenal. Only place he'd have struggled to get a game is City and now he's shown how good a striker he is as well as being a top class winger so he would easily start for them now over Navas/Nasri or Dzeko.


But can he do it in the Premier League?

Atletico was and remains imo the better move because he stays in La Liga and is able to improve his craft without a dodgy transition, he'll start almost every game, has the potential to win major trophies, and the work-rate, speed and clinical finishing required to play for Simeone's Atletico will turn him into a complete and utter beast.

He'll get his move to England, Bayern of PSG in a few years.

He'll probably stay at Atlético for now anyway, they have investment coming in from a multi billion pound corporation, so will be better financially. They are capable of keeping players unless the release clause has been paid and they get fair prices for the players(see Falcao, Costa, Filipe) and have very talented young players such as Saul, Koke, Giménez with the likes of Leo and Olivér doing well on loan, they already e.g. have ready made replacements for the ageing players such as Miranda/Godín/Tiago/Gabi/Mandzukic/Torres.


Do they have a replacement for both Miranda and Godin?
This Atletico-Barcelona match sounds like a United-Arsenal one from the Vieira/Keane era. Love it.
Original post by Stalin
But can he do it in the Premier League?

Atletico was and remains imo the better move because he stays in La Liga and is able to improve his craft without a dodgy transition, he'll start almost every game, has the potential to win major trophies, and the work-rate, speed and clinical finishing required to play for Simeone's Atletico will turn him into a complete and utter beast.

He'll get his move to England, Bayern of PSG in a few years.

But he's shown at Atlético already and at Sociedad that he's a quality forward, he didn't need to show it again at Atlético but he has now, despite playing a position that he rarely played at Sociedad.

Don't see why he'd move now since Atlético are getting investors in and the likes of Bayern don't need him, the english clubs are no better than Atlético bar for wages and PSG are another inferior team to Atlético, they just have more money but Atlético can offer them a chance to win better trophies in a more competitive league. Griezmann has been living in Spain since the age of 13 anyway.


Do they have a replacement for both Miranda and Godin?

José Giménez and Toby Alderweireld. We already know how Alderweireld is doing looking at Soton this season(if Soton don't buy him) and José Giménez filled in for Miranda's injury quite seamlessly, similar to the way Varane did. He's also had an unusually large number of caps for Uruguay at such a young age.
(edited 9 years ago)
Who said Moyes would never manage a side in the Bernabeu?
Neymar so far this season has 29 goals and 6 assists in 32 appearances for club and country.

Not bad for a 22 year old...
Great game so far.