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paddy357
Way to reassure
Well, it's blunt advice.
I must say I haven't met many "non-Chinese" (外国人
truly mastering Chinese, but those who do tend to have spent a considerable amount of time in China/Taiwan (of course, there are exceptions). The best way to learn Chinese would probably be going to a university in a rural area (=smaller town, with few English-speaking people), take an intensive course and immerse yourself in the language and culture.
Or join the Mormones to their training centre in the US - apparently they teach missionaries to fluency in 8-10 weeks. (NB! Joke)
Mastering Chinese requires a great deal of dedication and passion. It's not something you learn in your spare time.
Chinese universities are very cheap compared to Western standards (tuition for arts/humanities is about RMB 25,000 per year, which is far less than what you'd have to pay in the UK or the US). Living expenses will be a fraction of what you would pay in the West. Most recognised universities run Chinese Language and Culture Courses (certificiate/degrees) for 外国人 (I think the "sharing the excellence of the Chinese culture" is now officially on CCP's agenda
).
If Chinese is only a tool for you, then maybe you should look into taking, say, a 2-year certificate course (with some work, that might take you to HSK level 6, which is what is normally required for university entrance in humanities). You could then pursue your real interests (as opposed to your 'tools') doing a degree at a respectable university in the UK/US.
My own personal view, which many people on this forum wholeheartedly disagree with (although I don't think that's enough to neg rep me for), is that most tertiary level teaching would be better in Europe/US than in "developing" countries such as China (there might be exceptions: China has a very strong tradition in engeneering/applied science/etc.), but that a language is always better learnt in the place where it is spoken. This is not a universal claim: I'm just talking from my own, personal experience (learning Cantonese as an exchange student in Hong Kong, mentoring exchange students learning Swedish in my native Sweden, learning English as a university student in England).
The advantages of learning a language where it is spoken encompass both the immersion and cultural bits: you will undoubtedly feel a strong desire to learn the language because you would like to participate in the context you find yourself in. Languages are not one-to-one mappings, and in order to grasp a language, you would have to get under the skin of the people speaking it and living with it, and try to understand the way they are thinking. (I think this is the most fascinating aspect of language-learning in general.) For instance, I cannot understand how I would be able to say anything meaningful about food in Cantonese without knowing what Cantonese food is like - the language for food is very closely tied to the Cantonese food culture. Being surrounded by a language 24/7 will be a great incentive for learning it, and it will be a very rewarding and worthwhile task. On studying Chinese in China, your reward will not only be examination results, but as you get more and more advanced, you will be able to share experiences with people you just could not communicate with before.
My greatest inspiration in learning Canto was definitely my non-English speaking host mum: I simply had to learn to communicate in the language in order to show her my appreciation for all the kindness and courtesy she and her family offered me.
Therefore, "China."
truly mastering Chinese, but those who do tend to have spent a considerable amount of time in China/Taiwan (of course, there are exceptions). The best way to learn Chinese would probably be going to a university in a rural area (=smaller town, with few English-speaking people), take an intensive course and immerse yourself in the language and culture.Or join the Mormones to their training centre in the US - apparently they teach missionaries to fluency in 8-10 weeks.
(NB! Joke)Mastering Chinese requires a great deal of dedication and passion. It's not something you learn in your spare time.
Chinese universities are very cheap compared to Western standards (tuition for arts/humanities is about RMB 25,000 per year, which is far less than what you'd have to pay in the UK or the US). Living expenses will be a fraction of what you would pay in the West. Most recognised universities run Chinese Language and Culture Courses (certificiate/degrees) for 外国人 (I think the "sharing the excellence of the Chinese culture" is now officially on CCP's agenda
).If Chinese is only a tool for you, then maybe you should look into taking, say, a 2-year certificate course (with some work, that might take you to HSK level 6, which is what is normally required for university entrance in humanities). You could then pursue your real interests (as opposed to your 'tools') doing a degree at a respectable university in the UK/US.
My own personal view, which many people on this forum wholeheartedly disagree with (although I don't think that's enough to neg rep me for), is that most tertiary level teaching would be better in Europe/US than in "developing" countries such as China (there might be exceptions: China has a very strong tradition in engeneering/applied science/etc.), but that a language is always better learnt in the place where it is spoken. This is not a universal claim: I'm just talking from my own, personal experience (learning Cantonese as an exchange student in Hong Kong, mentoring exchange students learning Swedish in my native Sweden, learning English as a university student in England).
The advantages of learning a language where it is spoken encompass both the immersion and cultural bits: you will undoubtedly feel a strong desire to learn the language because you would like to participate in the context you find yourself in. Languages are not one-to-one mappings, and in order to grasp a language, you would have to get under the skin of the people speaking it and living with it, and try to understand the way they are thinking. (I think this is the most fascinating aspect of language-learning in general.) For instance, I cannot understand how I would be able to say anything meaningful about food in Cantonese without knowing what Cantonese food is like - the language for food is very closely tied to the Cantonese food culture. Being surrounded by a language 24/7 will be a great incentive for learning it, and it will be a very rewarding and worthwhile task. On studying Chinese in China, your reward will not only be examination results, but as you get more and more advanced, you will be able to share experiences with people you just could not communicate with before.
My greatest inspiration in learning Canto was definitely my non-English speaking host mum: I simply had to learn to communicate in the language in order to show her my appreciation for all the kindness and courtesy she and her family offered me.
Therefore, "China."
I agree with what you've said, tangsiuje. But to go to China without or almost without having studied it before? Difficult... I'd say that you've to speak it already at a fairly decent level if you want to benefit from the year. Therefore: At least 2 two years of university studies, then a year in China and then postgrad studies.
Tangsiuji: You raise alot of good points there. And I'll be honest, I don't know very much about studying straight off in China. However, I think I might offer another perspective 
.
Immersion in the target country is certainly the best way to gain fluency; but, starting a language from scratch and getting to fluency are years apart. That's why, in English universities, the year abroad at a Chinese university is always in the second or third year. Oxbridge and SOAS (and perhaps others although I am not sure) ask that their students dont attempt to learn the language before they start the degree. Quite simply because it is harder to reteach someone rather than teach from scratch. Apparently one lecturer at Cambridge even proposed that students spend no time in China atall -- it currupts their Chinese Well, thats a little eccentric, but you get the point.
Also, while it is probably easier to immerse yourself in rural towns, the problem is that the official mainland dialect is "putonghua" - the Beijing dialect - so the further you get from Beijing the less standard your Chinese becomes. But again this entirely depends what your goal is in the first place.
Asian countries, in general, place alot of emphasis on education (especially in the Sciences and in Mathematics). But even a quick glimpse at any "world university rankings" will verify that America and England are at the lead (although admittedly with America more so. Bastards
). I think only Beijing university from China has international clout. Basically, for a westerner atleast, a degree from England counts for alot more than a degree from China.
However for someone like the original poster, Kashiya, who simply wants to learn Chinese as a "tool", I think perhaps my advice would be to do a degree in something that you enjoy and then do exactly what Tangsiuji said and spend a hardcore couple of months (or years) in China immersing yourself and learning the language.
Just to finish off: basically, while I do agree that spending time in the country is very important, I'm not sure that is the best way to go about it, all things considered - unless you have either alot of money or no real passion for the subject. It would be really interesting to compare the outcomes of one person going straight to China, and the other studying it in England (with the compulsory year in China, of course).
.tangsiuje
I must say I haven't met many "non-Chinese" (外国人 truly mastering Chinese, but those who do tend to have spent a considerable amount of time in China/Taiwan (of course, there are exceptions). The best way to learn Chinese would probably be going to a university in a rural area (=smaller town, with few English-speaking people), take an intensive course and immerse yourself in the language and culture.
truly mastering Chinese, but those who do tend to have spent a considerable amount of time in China/Taiwan (of course, there are exceptions). The best way to learn Chinese would probably be going to a university in a rural area (=smaller town, with few English-speaking people), take an intensive course and immerse yourself in the language and culture.Immersion in the target country is certainly the best way to gain fluency; but, starting a language from scratch and getting to fluency are years apart. That's why, in English universities, the year abroad at a Chinese university is always in the second or third year. Oxbridge and SOAS (and perhaps others although I am not sure) ask that their students dont attempt to learn the language before they start the degree. Quite simply because it is harder to reteach someone rather than teach from scratch. Apparently one lecturer at Cambridge even proposed that students spend no time in China atall -- it currupts their Chinese
Well, thats a little eccentric, but you get the point. Also, while it is probably easier to immerse yourself in rural towns, the problem is that the official mainland dialect is "putonghua" - the Beijing dialect - so the further you get from Beijing the less standard your Chinese becomes. But again this entirely depends what your goal is in the first place.
tangsiuje
My own personal view, which many people on this forum wholeheartedly disagree with (although I don't think that's enough to neg rep me for), is that most tertiary level teaching would be better in Europe/US than in "developing" countries such as China (there might be exceptions: China has a very strong tradition in engeneering/applied science/etc.), but that a language is always better learnt in the place where it is spoken. This is not a universal claim: I'm just talking from my own, personal experience (learning Cantonese as an exchange student in Hong Kong, mentoring exchange students learning Swedish in my native Sweden, learning English as a university student in England).
Asian countries, in general, place alot of emphasis on education (especially in the Sciences and in Mathematics). But even a quick glimpse at any "world university rankings" will verify that America and England are at the lead (although admittedly with America more so. Bastards
). I think only Beijing university from China has international clout. Basically, for a westerner atleast, a degree from England counts for alot more than a degree from China. However for someone like the original poster, Kashiya, who simply wants to learn Chinese as a "tool", I think perhaps my advice would be to do a degree in something that you enjoy and then do exactly what Tangsiuji said and spend a hardcore couple of months (or years
) in China immersing yourself and learning the language.Just to finish off: basically, while I do agree that spending time in the country is very important, I'm not sure that is the best way to go about it, all things considered - unless you have either alot of money or no real passion for the subject. It would be really interesting to compare the outcomes of one person going straight to China, and the other studying it in England (with the compulsory year in China, of course).
Inquisitive
Unfortunately, then it's going to be a really rough ride for you as you're likely going to dread it.
Written Chinese is a completely non-phonetic language based entirely on ideograms, which is very difficult to learn if you don't have the slightest bit of interest. In terms of speaking, there are four tones (for Mandarin) that you'll need to grasp well before progressing any further.
Arguably, Chinese is one of the hardest languages (if not the hardest) in the world for the foreign learner. It would take a substantial amount of time and more so without interest to reach even a reasonable, basic standard.
Perhaps it would've been better for you to stick with PPE...
Written Chinese is a completely non-phonetic language based entirely on ideograms, which is very difficult to learn if you don't have the slightest bit of interest. In terms of speaking, there are four tones (for Mandarin) that you'll need to grasp well before progressing any further.
Arguably, Chinese is one of the hardest languages (if not the hardest) in the world for the foreign learner. It would take a substantial amount of time and more so without interest to reach even a reasonable, basic standard.
Perhaps it would've been better for you to stick with PPE...
When I say I treat it as a tool I mean not that I'm not interested in that! The same goes for English I took up this language coz I wanted to communicate! There are various ways how you can treat a language. I treat it as means of communication... I never enjoyed learning a language for the languages sake, I learn it because I want to talk to ppl in order to get to know their culture etc. East Asia is so different to Europe that I guess one will never be able to understand that culture without knowing those languages! And I'm fascinated with those cultures! I don’t want to learn Chinese only. I hope that I will be able to take up Japanese after a while. I know it will be difficult, but the more languages one knows the easier it is to take up another one! I know how Chinese and Japanese works, I learned a bit Japanese on my own and have friends there, who explained to me how those languages work…
I guess going to China and learning Chinese there is good for kids. They take up the language quickly… But those at Uni-age should in my opinion first learn some basic things on courses. The older you get the more difficult it is to learn a language only from listening and talking without any preparation and if you know at least some basic rules it becomes easier! So the idea with going to China in the 2~3 year at Uni is excellent!
Inquisitive
Written Chinese is a completely non-phonetic language based entirely on ideograms, which is very difficult to learn if you don't have the slightest bit of interest.
Not quite true. It's a myth--espcially for non-Chinese speakers--that all Chinese characters are ideograms. As a matter of fact, only a small portion of Chinese characters are ideograms. "Ideogram" and "Pictograh" are 2 of 6 categories under which Chinese characters are grouped. In fact, most Chinese characters, like Western languages, are phonetic, not to mention that traditional ideograms and pictographs are very much destroyed in the simplified Chinese characters.
kashiya
Piers- unfortunately I'd have to reapply to go to soas or oxbridge... I had offers for PPE at various unis but I declined them in order to try UCAS Extra for Chinese and through this I got the place at Notts. I'm not interested in Chinese as such - it's only a tool for me.
Yeah, I mean Ruhr Uni. I didn't know it was that good! I figured out it had many different courses that had something to do with East Asia so I though they must be ok... Are there many applicants?
Leiden, Leuven - I haven't heard about those Unis... Where are they? In what language are the courses?
So you think Bochum is better than Notts? Or maybe I will put it in other words: Is Chinese at Notts worth the money?
Yeah, I mean Ruhr Uni. I didn't know it was that good! I figured out it had many different courses that had something to do with East Asia so I though they must be ok... Are there many applicants?
Leiden, Leuven - I haven't heard about those Unis... Where are they? In what language are the courses?
So you think Bochum is better than Notts? Or maybe I will put it in other words: Is Chinese at Notts worth the money?
Leiden is the most prestigious uni in the Netherlands. Leuven is in the flemish part of Belgium; the most prestigious uni there; the oldest Catholic uni in the world. Haven't been to Leiden yet, but Leuven is a very lovely, self-contained university town.
I don't know if Chinese at Notts is worth your money, but Ruhr is no doubt better and far more prestigious than Notts when it comes to Chinese studies.
Piers-
Umm and incase you are wondering what my vested interest is, I will be studying Chinese at SOAS '06 entry . I don't know everything about it and I don't think I've given any misinformation here, but feel free to ask anything.
Piers.
. I don't know everything about it and I don't think I've given any misinformation here, but feel free to ask anything.Piers.
Hi Piers,
So you're going to study Chinese at SOAS then. I'm currently doing a research degree in comparative literature (english and french) at UCL. I'm from Taiwan, by the way. Looks like you're interested not only in the Chinese lang, but also in Chinese lit. or culture. If you want to share your ideas of Chinese lit or lang when you're in London, I'd happy to listen to. Welcome to London then.
pharmakos
Hi Piers,
So you're going to study Chinese at SOAS then. I'm currently doing a research degree in comparative literature (english and french) at UCL. I'm from Taiwan, by the way. Looks like you're interested not only in the Chinese lang, but also in Chinese lit. or culture. If you want to share your ideas of Chinese lit or lang when you're in London, I'd happy to listen to. Welcome to London then.
So you're going to study Chinese at SOAS then. I'm currently doing a research degree in comparative literature (english and french) at UCL. I'm from Taiwan, by the way. Looks like you're interested not only in the Chinese lang, but also in Chinese lit. or culture. If you want to share your ideas of Chinese lit or lang when you're in London, I'd happy to listen to. Welcome to London then.
Heya. Wow you are multilingual
. I've been to Taiwan thrice; I love it (great food). I'm currently chomping my way through the famous Chinese literatures. I've just finished "The Dream of the Red Chamber" and will start on "Journey to the West" soon; although I will read the abridged version entitled "Monkey"
. Feel free to suggest any other classics to get my teeth into!I'll stop right there before hijacking the thread
.pharmakos
Not quite true. ... In fact, most Chinese characters, like Western languages, are phonetic...
You don't know what you're talking about.
A simple example:
濕 師 詩 失 施 屍 噓 虱 蓍 鳲 are all shī; how, in any way, are these characters phonetic? If one has not learnt the character, they cannot in any way deduce the pronunciation from the writing.
Inquisitive
You don't know what you're talking about.
A simple example:
濕 師 詩 失 施 屍 噓 虱 蓍 鳲 are all shī; how, in any way, are these characters phonetic? If one has not learnt the character, they cannot in any way deduce the pronunciation from the writing.
A simple example:
濕 師 詩 失 施 屍 噓 虱 蓍 鳲 are all shī; how, in any way, are these characters phonetic? If one has not learnt the character, they cannot in any way deduce the pronunciation from the writing.
To reply to your doubt on the phonetic nature of Chinese characters:
"They [Chinese characters] are not just pictographs (pictures of their meanings), but are highly stylized and carry much abstract meaning. Only some characters are derived from pictographs. In 100 AD, the famed scholar Xu Shèn in the Hàn Dynasty classified characters into 6 categories, only 4% as pictographs, and 82% as phonetic complexes consisting of a semantic element that indicates meaning, and a phonetic element that arguably once indicated the pronunciation."
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language
It doesn't matter if Xu Shen classified the characters into 'phonetic complex' characters and whatnot, the fact remains, in reality and in practice, Chinese characters are non-phonetic.
Furthermore, a 'phonetic complex' doesn't mean something is phonetic - even a miniscule connection with phonetics that no one can comprehend can still be named a 'complex'.
Giving advice to learners is all about practicality - citing possibly outdated sources from academics of nearly two thousand years ago doesn't help in any way. It's out of touch with reality.
Furthermore, a 'phonetic complex' doesn't mean something is phonetic - even a miniscule connection with phonetics that no one can comprehend can still be named a 'complex'.
Giving advice to learners is all about practicality - citing possibly outdated sources from academics of nearly two thousand years ago doesn't help in any way. It's out of touch with reality.
pharmakos
"In 100 AD, the famed scholar Xu Shèn in the Hàn Dynasty classified characters into 6 categories, only 4% as pictographs, and 82% as phonetic complexes consisting of a semantic element that indicates meaning, and a phonetic element that arguably once indicated the pronunciation."
Re-read that excerpt, pharmakos. Two thousand years ago, Chinese characters were already non-phonetic.
Inquisitive
It doesn't matter if Xu Shen classified the characters into 'phonetic complex' characters and whatnot, the fact remains, in reality and in practice, Chinese characters are non-phonetic.
Furthermore, a 'phonetic complex' doesn't mean something is phonetic - even a miniscule connection with phonetics that no one can comprehend can still be named a 'complex'.
Giving advice to learners is all about practicality - citing possibly outdated sources from academics of nearly two thousand years ago doesn't help in any way. It's out of touch with reality.
Furthermore, a 'phonetic complex' doesn't mean something is phonetic - even a miniscule connection with phonetics that no one can comprehend can still be named a 'complex'.
Giving advice to learners is all about practicality - citing possibly outdated sources from academics of nearly two thousand years ago doesn't help in any way. It's out of touch with reality.
Right, it wouldn't be outdated for any serious learners of the Chinese language. Xu Shen's categories have been taught at high schools in Taiwan in order for students to better understand the composition, etymology, and structure of Chinese characters. It's like any serious learners of, say, English, French, or German would equip themsleves with some knowledge of Greek or Latin radicals or etymology.
The thing is words of "phonetic complex" are oftentimes pronounced according to their phonectic components even if their semantic components are pictographs.
Ah. Some radicals in some characters may perhaps help your memorisation, but it would be ridiculous to say Chinese characters were phonetic in a "predictive" sense... how could you possibly know which element is the phonetic one? one radical may be used to indicate pronunciation in one character, but to indicate meaning in another...
pharmakos
Right, it wouldn't be outdated for any serious learners of the Chinese language. Xu Shen's categories have been taught at high schools in Taiwan in order for students to better understand the composition, etymology, and structure of Chinese characters. It's like any serious learners of, say, English, French, or German would equip themsleves with some knowledge of Greek or Latin radicals or etymology.
Let's review what we've arrived at so far:
I said that Chinese characters are non-phonetic.
You disagreed said that this was was a 'myth' and that they actually are phonetic.
I then gave an example of a string of characters all with the pronunciation of 'shi1', which you didn't really address.
You then quoted a Wikipedia entry citing Xu Shen regarding categories of Chinese characters, one of them being 'phonetic complexes'.
I then said this was 'possibly outdated', but my main point was that it's not helpful for the learner because, in practice, it is actually non-phonetic, thus reinforcing what I said at the very beginning.
So do you or do you not agree that they are phonetic? An account on Xu Shen's categories and serious learners of Chinese doesn't address this matter.
pharmakos
The thing is words of "phonetic complex" are oftentimes pronounced according to their phonectic components even if their semantic components are pictographs.
This accounts for very few characters on the whole for traditional characters. Simplified characters have a lot more, but still, it doesn't mean that the language is phonetic.
tangsiuje
Ah. Some radicals in some characters may perhaps help your memorisation, but it would be ridiculous to say Chinese characters were phonetic in a "predictive" sense... how could you possibly know which element is the phonetic one? one radical may be used to indicate pronunciation in one character, but to indicate meaning in another...
It's possible. The pronunciations of words such as 跑 (pao) ("to run"), 抱 (bao) ("to hug), 苞 (bao) ("calyx") were derived from the word "包" (bao) (to pack or wrap).
pharmakos
It says "arguably," mate. Either way, though, only a small amount of Chinese characters are pictographs or ideographs whatsoever.
Regarding 'arguably', it refers to Xu Shen's claim that Chinese characters were ONCE phonetic. It means that he's not sure whether Chinese characters were phonetic in the PAST (and that past, was before 100 AD). This means that he acknowledges that Chinese characters are non-phonetic and this was two thousand years ago. Two thousand years later - today - this is the same; Chinese is still not phonetic.
Dude, you're too hung up on the terminology used by academics. Ideograms/pictographs/characters and so on does not detract the fact that Chinese characters are non-phonetic.
If you can't deduce pronunciation from the written language, then it's not phonetic.
pharmakos
It's possible. The pronunciations of words such as 跑 (pao) ("to run"), 抱 (bao) ("to hug), 苞 (bao) ("calyx") were derived from the word "包" (bao) (to pack or wrap).
First of all, this is a tiny representation out of many thousands of Chinese characters.
Secondly, even with the examples you give, a learner would not know whether it was 'pao' or 'bao' for each, nor would they know which of the four tones they should use in each.
EDIT: By tiny representation, I mean that there are many thousands of characters which don't lend themselves to similar sounds of the contained radicals. This means that only few characters follow similar sounds as those of their radicals.
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