[Orthodoxyproxy]

Hey people,

Just wondered what you people thought of when someone mentions "anarchism" - whether visions of fire in the streets or pure communism which perhaps reflects the more spiritual shade of socialism more effectively then any other libertarian offshoot of left thought.

I'll be doing my dissertation examining Anarchism within Europe roughly 1871-1936 with a focus on South Wales.

[RandomChap]

Anarchism is a belief system that essentially denies the existence of the group as anything more than an abstraction.

All collective authority therefore is irrational.

I could sit here and describe what an anarchy would look like, and no doubt people would jump in here and shout 'but it can't work, hur durr' but that would be missing the point.

Anarchism is not about prosperity and social utility, it's about the principle that collective authority is irrational. Who cares what a stateless society looks like if the State is an unjust institution?

[rcummins1]

When I think of anarchism I think of The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises...people trying to bring down the 'establishment' and 'give power back to the people'. I think of widespread pillaging, raping, and basically an every man for himself environment.

[Alones]

Anarchism is "The theory or doctrine that all forms of government are oppressive and undesirable and should be abolished." [The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition]
For any political philosophy, there are two fundamental questions to answer:
1) What is the proper purpose of the State.
2) What is the proper extent of the State.

Anarchism answers the first question with 'There is no proper purpose.' and the second question with 'none.'

But to cut a long story short, there are many books and articles (some of them even online) written for anarchy/anarchism.
I can give you this link if you are interrested to learn more: http://libcom.org/library/what-is-an...xander-berkman
As it says in the website, it is an easy to read, introduction to anarchist politics. A very good starting point for people interested in getting a general overview of the theory and practice of anarchism.

[Orthodoxyproxy]

Anarchism, to me seems an appeal to sanity. No Age of Empires-like dividing peoples into respective cultures, religion, ethnicity through virtue of a different colour. No petty border disputes over who owns what. No coercive authority demanding subservience.. In short, for me anarchism denotes freedom, democracy and liberty at its very core.

[Presenttime]

Obviously we need laws to make sure people do things altruistically as people have a strong tendency towards selfishness. However, often people exploit or evade the law to promote negative things. I think overall the law is a positive thing, however one has to behave according to their own moral code. I think anarchy is a good thing, but unattainable, but Britain is diverse and allows for one to have quite a distinct identity, especially depending on where you live.

[Orthodoxyproxy]

(Original post by Presenttime)
Obviously we need laws to make sure people do things altruistically as people have a strong tendency towards selfishness.

For me there is nothing obvious to it. Restrictions of freedom has always come about under the pretense that in not doing so would be disastrous - when actually to me within a small, self-sufficient community anyway, it would simply put the lawyers, politicians, judges, soldiers and all manner of civic handicaps of freedom out of a job as they would be exposed as unnecessary and dangerous.

Quoting Voltaire "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" from this one can assume anarchism simply to be the beating soul of liberalism realised - leaving the reactionary, conservative and retrogressive elements associated with liberalism safely contained within the ash heap of history as a philosophical accompaniment to the anatomical vestigial tail and appendix.

[cid]

The majority of people in the western first world today wouldn't be able to handle anarchism, even the ones that claim to want it, the second some one bigger and uglier than them leaves them feeling weak/abused/powerless then will reach for the phone to dial 999 then realize that the guy who just ran off with their can of beans used to be a cop.

[Orthodoxyproxy]

Personally, I think something akin to anarchism was what the Founding Fathers of America had in mind when penning down the American constitution.. Hence liberal guns laws to oppose those who would threaten to take it from you!

I get your point, but your argument supposes resource scarcity and technological advances in the last 50 years seem to indicate that will be a thing of the past with the growth of hydroponics, green energy and the international acknowledgement understanding democratic universalism to be the most desirable method of human social-interaction..

[SnoochToTheBooch]

**** that. i'm all for personal freedoms and getting rid of the nanny state type bull****, but when humans don't have someone in charge to make them obey some sort of rules you end up with the congo. We're a stupid, selfish species that will **** each other over for short term gains given the opportunity. The type of person who could live peacefully in an anarchy would be the ones getting shafted by the likes of those who rioted last year.

[miser]

Anarchism for me has two very distinct ideas that come to mind. First, there's the intellectual's idea of a de-centralised society, then there's the other, more ugly idea of people behaving vicariously, abusing their freedom to the cost of others.

[> Fat Bastard <]

(Original post by Orthodoxyproxy)
Hey people,

Just wondered what you people thought of when someone mentions "anarchism" - whether visions of fire in the streets or pure communism which perhaps reflects the more spiritual shade of socialism more effectively then any other libertarian offshoot of left thought.

I'll be doing my dissertation examining Anarchism within Europe roughly 1871-1936 with a focus on South Wales.

Sex Pistols.

[TurboCretin]

(Original post by Presenttime)
Obviously we need laws to make sure people do things altruistically as people have a strong tendency towards selfishness. However, often people exploit or evade the law to promote negative things. I think overall the law is a positive thing, however one has to behave according to their own moral code. I think anarchy is a good thing, but unattainable, but Britain is diverse and allows for one to have quite a distinct identity, especially depending on where you live.

If they're acting out of fear of punishment then they're not acting altruistically. You cannot impose anything on people to make them be altruistic.

What I want to know is how there could be any law between people who do not live within a state. Without law, there can be no sanctity of private property, no trade, and we would essentially go back to a hunter-gatherer state. Perhaps this is ultimately a good thing.

[remiquaver]

When I think about anarchism, I suppose naturally I think of the punk movement, though I'd call them hypocrites if they have management ie. Sex Pistols and Malcolm McLaren. Though when applying it to politics, I don't think it could ever work in society; you will always get someone who ends up becoming a leader and forming a hierarchy, it happens in pretty much every conceivable social situation, from children in the playground to animals in a pack. It's not practical either; I think it would always be best to have a select few gaging the populous' general opinion and becoming a governing body who acts upon this. Not that this process necessarily happens exactly as it should in Britain but that's another discussion all together. Good luck with your dissertation! I think it's especially interesting that you are putting a particular focus on South Wales!

[Eldedu]

When I hear "anarchism" I think of students with half-formed minds and half-baked opinions who'd rather modify their political views according to their need to attract attention and stand out from the crowd than according to what makes sense.

[Orthodoxyproxy]

(Original post by Eldedu)
When I hear "anarchism" I think of students with half-formed minds and half-baked opinions who'd rather modify their political views according to their need to attract attention and stand out from the crowd than according to what makes sense.

This is a criticism which is levied against most people aged 18-25 holding leftist views by a supposed wiser, more conservative elder. Your argument is perhaps best shared by Murray Bookchin who considered such pretentious people as 'Lifestyle anarchists'. However, figures like Bob Black and Saul Newman who take the pejorative term 'Lifestyle anarchists' and accept it for how they see it - that is people embracing an identity based upon the principles of Libertarian Socialism. I suppose you doubt these people have any integrity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bZzM4s0Hgs

When in actual fact, what I see is people playing great punk rock and having a blast with mates.. Sure, you can accuse them of posturing etc ive studied enough of Ayn Rand to realise that a certain amount of human behavior is based upon self-interest but dispute with her that altruism simply doesn't exist and any attempts to adhere to it result in slavery - for that reason I consider myself an anarchist.

[RandomChap]

(Original post by Presenttime)
Obviously we need laws to make sure people do things altruistically...

How can you force a person to do something altruistically?

[Eldedu]

(Original post by Orthodoxyproxy)
This is a criticism which is levied against most people aged 18-25 holding leftist views by a supposed wiser, more conservative elder. Your argument is perhaps best shared by Murray Bookchin who considered such pretentious people as 'Lifestyle anarchists'. However, figures like Bob Black and Saul Newman who take the pejorative term 'Lifestyle anarchists' and accept it for how they see it - that is people embracing an identity based upon the principles of Libertarian Socialism. I suppose you doubt these people have any integrity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bZzM4s0Hgs

When in actual fact, what I see is people playing great punk rock and having a blast with mates.. Sure, you can accuse them of posturing etc ive studied enough of Ayn Rand to realise that a certain amount of human behavior is based upon self-interest but dispute with her that altruism simply doesn't exist and any attempts to adhere to it result in slavery - for that reason I consider myself an anarchist.

Basically, I feel it's the political equivalent of being a hipster. The fact that you've clearly thought about it for longer than it takes to google "alternative political views" is not going to change that feeling I'm afraid.

Ayn Rand is perhaps a greater douchebag than most anarchists, and her unimpressively structured treatise on architecture and hate-****ing is hardly objective enough material to be considered evidence against altruism, but I see your point. See, but don't share, since I fail to make the logical bridge between recognizing some altruism exists and subscribing to anarchy.

[RandomChap]

(Original post by TurboCretin)
What I want to know is how there could be any law between people who do not live within a state.

Here is an interesting read:

http://mises.org/daily/2088

[Revilo1]

Anarchism reminds me of people before society, and a modern-version of that - small groups of people who share something in common sticking together, turning our one, big society into hundreds of smaller ones. Which sounds like a massive step backwards, to me.