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Reply 20
She was good at PR and despite appearing to be a marvellous conviction politician, in reality a lot of her image was carefully contrived and manufactured, ranging from her voice and appearance through to her background (her lower-middle-classness was exaggerated) and solidity of her views (her speech writing teams often struggled to keep up with her frequent shifts of policy), so that the "Thatcher" one thinks of quickly is largely a result of production.

The real Maggie is still to come out and time will tell. At least part of what she did is now utterly misrepresented by the Tory Right. For example, she was actually quite pro-Europe in her policies and she initiated all of the current close integration with the EU. The banging on about getting rebates and saying no to those ghastly Europeans was just table-thumping for the Tory conference idiots, but to listen to right-wing Tory MPs now, you'd think she'd never agreed to Maastricht and ever-closer Union, which in fact she did.

She was also a bit less rampantly right-wing in some economic areas than she is portrayed.

It is true though that she was very anti-union and she constantly feather-bedded the City. Her circles of close friends were people like financiers, international wealthy, etc. She was, like Cameron, a representative of the more extreme parts of the City money-making machine, in hiding as a regular politician. Her primary goals, privatisation and relaxation of the City regulation, were carried through and were her proudest personal achievements. The Falklands and Europe-bashing were side-shows.
Reply 21
Original post by placebo24
Because she sold away our future and created a Britain for the rich.


Sounds perfectly good to me to be honest.
Reply 22
Original post by Fires
She was good at PR and despite appearing to be a marvellous conviction politician, in reality a lot of her image was carefully contrived and manufactured, ranging from her voice and appearance through to her background (her lower-middle-classness was exaggerated) and solidity of her views (her speech writing teams often struggled to keep up with her frequent shifts of policy), so that the "Thatcher" one thinks of quickly is largely a result of production.

The real Maggie is still to come out and time will tell. At least part of what she did is now utterly misrepresented by the Tory Right. For example, she was actually quite pro-Europe in her policies and she initiated all of the current close integration with the EU. The banging on about getting rebates and saying no to those ghastly Europeans was just table-thumping for the Tory conference idiots, but to listen to right-wing Tory MPs now, you'd think she'd never agreed to Maastricht and ever-closer Union, which in fact she did.

She was also a bit less rampantly right-wing in some economic areas than she is portrayed.

It is true though that she was very anti-union and she constantly feather-bedded the City. Her circles of close friends were people like financiers, international wealthy, etc. She was, like Cameron, a representative of the more extreme parts of the City money-making machine, in hiding as a regular politician. Her primary goals, privatisation and relaxation of the City regulation, were carried through and were her proudest personal achievements. The Falklands and Europe-bashing were side-shows.


Let me guess......your someone who has never worked before and is currently a student at university?

When you leave your bubble and start working you will soon realise that being proactive and making money is one of the most important things of life. but as you are in a current bubble of everything anti - money, anti - city etc.. you will continue to be deluded. Time to wake up pal.
Reply 23
I think that the kind of emotional reaction that the younger generation (e.g. us!) has to Thatcher is very different from the emotional reaction experienced by the generation of people who actually lived through her years in power. However, I can definitely understand why some people who lived through the changes she made hate her, because she had in some cases a direct and extremely negative impact on people's lives. It may not be fully rational, and of course these things can't realistically be ascribed to one individual, but to people 'on the ground' in mining communities lives were being destroyed by policy which she headed. In situations like that - where you find yourself in a horrible situation through little fault of your own* - you psychologically need to find a focus to channel the anger and distress you feel onto. The policies were being seen as 'by Thatcher', and she was certainly hugely vocal in her justifications of what she did, and so, if you were a person who suffered whilst she was in power due to policies brought in during that time... I can see how you could come to hate her, however irrationally.


*From a general point of view, I do agree that the unions were becoming far too powerful -- but individuals who lost their jobs and suffered under Thatcher were not, I would argue, individually to blame for the situation they found themselves in.
I only hate Thatcher as a result of what I've been told by other people.

If you hate Thatcher you should also hate Blair, he continued a lot of the things that Thatcher started.

Thatcher is also to blame for people coming to Nottingham and insisting on calling us scabs. (I'm 25 how the hell can I be a scab?)
My parents hate her. So I hate her.

No I'm cereal: My parents moan about her. So I research her, I look for the bad things she did as people earlier mentioned, confirmation of love for my parents., whereas if they loved her I'd look for the good things.

Edit: lol neg rep? :frown:
(edited 11 years ago)
The primary problem was that she kept going for slightly too long, alientating her fans and making it so that people who would traditionally have defended her became tired of her as she became increasingly out of touch and bereft of the good ideas which she had brought at the beginning of her time in office. After 1988 she was still very popular, had won an election comfortably and was in a good position to give control over to her successor as her husband had suggested, but chose to remain in the job for as long as possible and so got 2 years which turned her from a very respected prime minister to one that no one was willing to support.

The issue was that she then started doing things which were very controversial which she believed in strongly, like the poll tax, and the problem became that her followers no longer had a strong reason to defend her, as she was supposedly going to go soon and it wasnt worth sullying their career as a result. That kinda failed though.

Another problem is that views on her are very geographically isolated. The southeast, which benefited massively and where many of the people who supported her ended up moving to, remains very positive towards her, while northern towns and scotland see her as something close to the devil. Neither side are really able to communicate, as her detractors see her supporters as selfish while the south is disgusted by the treatment and lack of respect accorded to a very old woman who made great personal and economic sacrifices for the nation.
Reply 27
Original post by Hackett
Let me guess......your someone who has never worked before and is currently a student at university?

When you leave your bubble and start working you will soon realise that being proactive and making money is one of the most important things of life. but as you are in a current bubble of everything anti - money, anti - city etc.. you will continue to be deluded. Time to wake up pal.


Your comments appear to be irrelevant, do you have anything useful to say about M Thatcher?
Reply 28
Original post by The Gentle Giant
The primary problem was that she kept going for slightly too long, alientating her fans and making it so that people who would traditionally have defended her became tired of her as she became increasingly out of touch and bereft of the good ideas which she had brought at the beginning of her time in office. After 1988 she was still very popular, had won an election comfortably and was in a good position to give control over to her successor as her husband had suggested, but chose to remain in the job for as long as possible and so got 2 years which turned her from a very respected prime minister to one that no one was willing to support.

The issue was that she then started doing things which were very controversial which she believed in strongly, like the poll tax, and the problem became that her followers no longer had a strong reason to defend her, as she was supposedly going to go soon and it wasnt worth sullying their career as a result. That kinda failed though.

Another problem is that views on her are very geographically isolated. The southeast, which benefited massively and where many of the people who supported her ended up moving to, remains very positive towards her, while northern towns and scotland see her as something close to the devil. Neither side are really able to communicate, as her detractors see her supporters as selfish while the south is disgusted by the treatment and lack of respect accorded to a very old woman who made great personal and economic sacrifices for the nation.


Some very good points there.

A lot of new stuff has emerged about the poll tax in recent years, including that Scotland, which had been thought to have been viewed as a "test-bed" for the policy by the Tories, in fact adopted it early due to pressure from local authorities there, who thought it would improve their budgets! Big mistake!

Note that Cameron's government are planning to re-introduce the Poll Tax by stealth - they are currently reviewing council tax credit, so that even unemployed people and very poor pensioners will have to start paying some council tax from next year.
Reply 29
stole me milk, took me coal, sold me banks, got me broke!
Reply 30
One granddad was a coal miner, the other a steelworker. I can't help but hate her and the Tories in general, especially when I hear about my mum's childhood (her father was the coal miner). I know it's not the right way to develop my own political ideologies but it's been bred into me and I can't help it now.
It says allot that she single handedly managed to destroy any chance of the Tory's winning elections in Scotland she treated Scotland (and to an extent the north of England) like a dumping ground. My grandfather was a trade union leader back then so naturally he despises her I try not to mention her in front of him otherwise he goes off on a rant. As long as the rich southerners held the power she was happy she didn't care about the working class one bit she deserves all the hate yes she was good in certain aspects but overall she was a heartless & arrogant woman.
Reply 32
I think people here forget the role of Arthur Scargill and also forget the state this country was in in the 1970s.
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 33
Original post by between_the_lies


I have heard people on the tube talking about how "bad" Thatcher was. When I asked them how was she bad, they were unable to say.


It could, of course, simply be the case that the kind of person who believes anything good about the poll tax is also the kind of person who is not prepared to listen to their arguments.
Reply 34
It's sad that many people take their parents views as their own rather than retaining an open mind (why would you only research the negatives and not the positives).

Thatcher may not have been perfect but she verged on brilliance.

By the time Thatcher came to power the unions had political control and we had vast inefficient publicly owned industries which employed people simply for the sake of hiding unemployment and were payed for by shafting the taxpayer. On a simplistic level many lefties hate her simply because she comprehensively won the argument for capitalism versus socialism, she crushed the unions, made Labour unelectable until they loosely adopted neo-liberalism and set in place the conditions for 'The Great Moderation'.

Many of the policies and ideas she had were great, based around greater private provision and lower taxes.

Her main failings in my mind were not seeing some policies through to the end result and two examples come to mind..

1) The right to buy was great in itself but no incentive to replace the houses coming off the market was made, this in part led to the supply issues we have today

2) Whilst manufacturing was hit there was again no incentive for it to modernise (too dependent on finance)

On the whole i am a big supporter of hers, some intellectual lefties will oppose her actual policies but most are blinded by flawed socialist ideals or closed mindedness.
Reply 35
Original post by Hackett
Sounds perfectly good to me to be honest.


Sure it's all well and good if you're bourgeois. If you're poor as ****, like me for example, or even just not well off, like the most of the population, you're much worse off.

No war but class war.
Because she stood up for productive people, the people that make Britain great and the people that create wealth.

Some people didn't want that.
Original post by placebo24
Sure it's all well and good if you're bourgeois. If you're poor as ****, like me for example, or even just not well off, like the most of the population, you're much worse off.

No war but class war.


This.

This was posted from The Student Room's Android App on my GT-S5830
Reply 38
Original post by Rakas21
It's sad that many people take their parents views as their own rather than retaining an open mind (why would you only research the negatives and not the positives).

Thatcher may not have been perfect but she verged on brilliance.

By the time Thatcher came to power the unions had political control and we had vast inefficient publicly owned industries which employed people simply for the sake of hiding unemployment and were payed for by shafting the taxpayer. On a simplistic level many lefties hate her simply because she comprehensively won the argument for capitalism versus socialism, she crushed the unions, made Labour unelectable until they loosely adopted neo-liberalism and set in place the conditions for 'The Great Moderation'.

Many of the policies and ideas she had were great, based around greater private provision and lower taxes.

Her main failings in my mind were not seeing some policies through to the end result and two examples come to mind..

1) The right to buy was great in itself but no incentive to replace the houses coming off the market was made, this in part led to the supply issues we have today

2) Whilst manufacturing was hit there was again no incentive for it to modernise (too dependent on finance)

On the whole i am a big supporter of hers, some intellectual lefties will oppose her actual policies but most are blinded by flawed socialist ideals or closed mindedness.


It isn't really the case that the unions "had political control", or at least, not nearly as much as was claimed by the Tory press. The crucial point in the Thatcherite saga was the alleged climbdown by Ted Heath in the face of union pressure and then Harold Wilson's subsequent "surrender" to the miners. Neither is really accurate - Ted Heath did not get "defeated by the unions", he rather foolishly chose to go to a General Election at a time when the public didn't want one and lost. Wilson didn't really "give in to the miner's demands" on anything like the scale alleged at the time - the miners got some increases in pay but nothing like what they had been demanding. This is all part of the myth-making game played by the right-wing press and PR agencies like Saatchis who created the Tory message.

The "winter of discontent" was a big failure of the unions to play the political game well, but again it was hugely exaggerated by the press. The biggest scandal of the time, the piles of unburied corpses at crematoria, never happened.

I don't disagree that Thatcher was a very effective politican, but to see her as some kind of saviour of Britain from the evil unions is just nonsense really. The thing her team were best at was creating a new, US-style PR-manufactured image. She was Blair before Blair, the manufacturer of a myth. Her PR people learned their craft from Ronald Reagan's team in the US.
Reply 39
It is inaccurate to say that she destroyed manufacturing: manufacturing output was at a historical high when she left office; it was at its highest ever in 2007. Manufacturing employment did fall, but this isn't as important as total production.

It's also a myth that Thatcher destroyed the coal mining industry; coal production was highest in 1913 and then plateaued for three decades until the end of World War II. Coal production then started to decline following nationalization (although whether or not this is because of nationalization or because coal is a finite resource is debatable) and by the time Thatcher was elected it was already in severe decline even with the industry receiving heavy subsidies.

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