Access to HE = No UCAS points; trouble applying for grad jobs

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I think it's because they get so many applicants that they have to devise different ways to filter out excellent candidates from even better candidates. Law, Medicine, VetMed and Oxbridge tend do the same with GCSE grades, if you get under a certain amount of A*s your application is most likely going to get declined, despite how great your A-levels/Level 3 study and work experience are.

It's a strict minority of students which do Access courses (probably <5%?), so ex-Access students probably tend to get overlooked since their course is not worth any UCAS points.

I think to a large extent this is merely a covert university filter.

What is noticeable is that this tends to be seen as a concern by Access students and not by those educated in foreign school systems where in theory the same issue arises. Indeed foreign graduates, as well as possibly having school issues, may well not have at least a 2:1.

Reply 21

wetin dey?

The universities & employers use NARIC for international qualifications & award points accordingly for example . They even have lists & ratings of top schools in every country.

Not sure how they classify access or what allowances are made. I do know some companies use a points system and you pass the filter if you accumulate x points, others have very strict quotas for UK applicants and because of numbers can afford to exclude access/btec/gnvq et al. Yes the may be missing out on some very competent matures students but I doubt it is something they worry about.

Reply 22

Smack

Volunteer Team

Original post by nulli tertius

I think to a large extent this is merely a covert university filter.

I know this is often said on TSR as TSR likes to believe that only students of certain universities should be allowed to get jobs, but I haven't seen any evidence that it is this and not merely a cheap way to whittle down candidates that also ensures that you only get applicants who have performed well throughout their entire academic careers with no blips.

It is actually much easier to filter applicants from certain universities out than it is those who do not meet a UCAS points threshold anyway. If you're looking at CVs then the university attended is clearly written on it, and unless you ask candidates to input the number themselves, your form is going to need a calculator on it. So I think that if that was what companies wanted to do, they'd do it. I've filled out at least one application form with a fairly blatant university filter, but no way for them to automatically calculate my UCAS points.

What is noticeable is that this tends to be seen as a concern by Access students and not by those educated in foreign school systems where in theory the same issue arises. Indeed foreign graduates, as well as possibly having school issues, may well not have at least a 2:1.

Most forms I've seen that are concerned about pre-university education (which I will concede is not a particularly large amount since it's not common in my sector) have had the caveat "or equivalent", and it appears that access courses are not allocated any UCAS points, whereas foreign qualifications - and indeed Scottish Highers and the IB - are.

Reply 23

nulli tertius

Original post by Smack

I take your point, but larger organisations that work on policies and protocols wouldn't feel comfortable with putting "Oxbridge and redbrick only" on paper. It doesn't fit well with diversity policies. Its the sort of thing that a small consultancy could do, but not an international bank.

Foreign qualifications except Irish, the of UK origin and the IB don't attract UCAS points. There is no UCAS equivalent of SAT scores or the French Bac or any European Matura.

Reply 24

Smack

Volunteer Team

Original post by nulli tertius

It doesn't have to say that on paper though, out in the open. It can easily be done internally and covertly within HR, as it's very easy for the software behind the application form to filter out those who did not attend institutions X, Y or Z.

Foreign qualifications except Irish, the of UK origin and the IB don't attract UCAS points. There is no UCAS equivalent of SAT scores or the French Bac or any European Matura.

Okay, I didn't know that, but then I've also never seen anyone who didn't go through the UK education system at an interview for a graduate job or summer placement.

Reply 25

ColdCase

Agree with this topic.

I graduated in September 2011 with a 2:1 degree in Psychology. I'm not aiming to go into Psychology as a career but am looking at general graduate entry jobs. However, a lot of them do want UCAS points. To be honest, it's one hurdle after another when applying through a job after doing a degree via Access. If I knew then what I know now then i'm not sure if I would have gone via the Access route. Needless to say, I'm still looking for a job.

Reply 26

MikeyS

Well here I am mid way through the academic year with a number of graduate programme applications under my belt. It is with no surprise that I have just been rejected for KPMG graduate training programme. Initially they said my academic performance was "not good enough" compared to the pool of candidates they are able to select from! This surprised me, as I won an award for achieving the highest overall mark in my department at university, so there can't be many people with a better academic record at Uni.

However, when pushed KMPG finally admitted that they refuse to accept the Access to HE diploma as it has no UCAS points attached. Absolutely rediculous, and I'm annoyed at 1. The Access to He qualification for not assigning UCAS points and 2. Employers for not recognizing the Access to HE diploma. It seems only academics recognize our diploma. Here are the full emails if any one is interested.

Dear Michael,

Thank you for the time and effort you have committed to applying to KPMG. One of our graduate recruitment team has now personally assessed your application and I regret to inform you that you have not been short-listed to the next stage of our process.

The primary reason for not taking your application forward was your academic performance to date. With a high volume of applications for our roles, competition is inevitably very intense and I regret to say that in comparison to the pool of candidates we are able to select from, your academic achievements are not sufficiently strong to meet our current requirements.

After taking this into account and reviewing your other responses to our application we have regrettably decided not to pursue your application to the next stage.

We regret that we cannot give you any further feedback on your application.

With best wishes for your future success.

Kind regards,
Mark Hazelwood KPMG Graduate Recruitment

Hi Mark,

Thank you for your email. Would you be able to clarify what part of my academic performance you felt was not good enough, as I have excelled at a top 20 University in a difficult subject, and was even awarded the highest overall mark in the Economics department. I can only think there would be perhaps a handful of people in the country with a better academic performance than that.

Kind regards,

Mike

Hi Michael

At this point in time we cannot deem to consider UCAs points equivalents for your Higher education diploma, despite the fact that Loughborough University has allowed it to meet their requirements. You had the option to continue to A-levels at school and chose not to do so.

I wish you the best in your future search for employment.

Kind regards

Mark

The bit that makes me laugh is "You had the option to continue to A-levels at school and chose not to do so." :biggrin:

How ignorant are these guys! Well done Mark!

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 27

username848676

Original post by MikeyS

How ignorant are these guys! Well done Mark!

Wow, as if they seriously said "You had the option to continue A-levels at school and chose not to do so". How can that deem your intelligence? If you went to a top 20 University, which I'm presuming is Russel Group, in such a difficult subject and obtained one of the highest marks, how can they fail your application? Just because of your past? I did A-levels and did bad due to family issues. I then took some time out, done an Apprenticeship, matured greatly. I'm now going to Durham University. It will kill me knowing that I get rejected from Graduate Jobs just because of my past experiences, more so if I do excellently. I want to get into Teaching though, so I don't think that really affects me in that way, as they don't go on UCAS points, but more so on your Degree marks and experiences.

Reply 28

clungemagnet

Original post by MikeyS

How ignorant are these guys! Well done Mark!

I am terribly sorry to hear this. But they are trying to be fair. They tend to ignore the postgraduate qualifications as well. Maybe they might make an exception for MBAs with work experience (for consulting positions).
Doesn't matter if you got a Distinction or was on the dean's list (for outstanding performance) or have a PhD in Economics from Harvard. If you don't have the necessary GCSEs and UCAS points, they can't consider your application. Having to filter the applicants like you - believe me there are better applicants with postgraduate qualifications from more prestigious institutions - is the price they pay when they implement the recruitment system like the Big 4. People call it bureaucracy. Fairness works both ways.

This is one of the major problems the HR professionals are working on - but the trend seems to be that the HR professionals in most major companies want to implement rigid recruitment systems that require UCAS points from 3 A-levels, not from resits, not even from BTEC, together with the 2.1 requirement.

If you are determined to be an accountant, try smaller companies or foreign companies. They will still give you the support you need to be an accountant. They take more pragmatic approaches to recruitment.

Finally, last but not least, you think Mark is being a smart-arse. Well, he isn't. He is following the orders. He is just as powerless as you feel you are.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 29

nulli tertius

Original post by clungemagnet

But they are trying to be fair.

But ultimately they are failing and the rigidities in the system will end up with them making substantial payouts for indirect discrimination (albeit probably not to people like the poster).

Indirect discrimination is where you impose a requirement that fewer people with a protected characteristic can reach without objective justification for the requirement.

If you have a shelf stacker and you impose a minimum height requirement of 5'10", fewer women than men can meet that requirement. To justify that requirement, it is not enough to say that you need to be 5'10" to reach the top shelf, you have to justify why all (rather than some) shelf stackers need to be able to reach the top shelf and why it is not feasible for shelf stackers under 5'10" to use a step stool to reach the top shelf.

There are two problems with this recruiting process.

Firstly, although the firm is a global one, it looks as though they are recruiting based on participation in the UK or Irish educational system between the ages of 14 and 18. Foreign qualifications do not give UCAS points. Obviously, fewer Greeks or Spaniards hold UCAS points than Brits, therefore the recruitment process will be indirectly discriminatory on the grounds of nationality. They will have the devil's job convincing a court that it is objectively justified that they only recruit people to work in the UK who have UK school qualifications when they are recruiting people to work in Greece and Spain with Greek and Spanish qualifications (note this is not about linguistic competency-this is about possession of bits of paper).

Secondly, the grade inflation that has undoubtedly taken place leaves them vulnerable to a challenge from older applicants who have A levels but which do not meet the filter but whose A levels reflect a similar position in their year group to the placing of the filter in the current year group. That argument can be stretched to the poster because a greater proportion of older applicants than young applicants hold access qualifications. However, whilst it is unlikely that adherence to a fixed A level grade over years where it is admitted that A levels are not comparable over time is difficult, access courses are so radically different that an employer stands a better chance of objectively justifying a difference in treatment.

Effectively, you can't satisfy discrimination laws by saying you treat everyone the same.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 30

OMGWTFBBQ

Why not just sit English, Maths, Economics, Politics and General Studies at A Level and GCSE in the next sitting? They should be easy enough with no/minimal revision given your now your undoubted skills developed throughout your degree.

A lot of companies are going to be unsympathetic, as they are stipulating this arbitrary hoop to filter out candidates and cut their workload.

If there's a hoop, jump through it. It'll cost between £250 and £500 quid, but the return on investment is huge.

Best of luck!

Reply 31

clungemagnet

Original post by OMGWTFBBQ

I don't think the benefit is worth the cost. Why bother? There are plenty of companies that accept just a 2.1, a Merit/Distinction in Master's, or a PhD. This is what I like about London. There are foreign companies that don't give a **** about A-levels or GCSEs. Their graduate recruitment couldn't be simpler. Just submit a CV and a cover letter.

Relying on formal qualifications is a very english thing.

Reply 32

OMGWTFBBQ

Original post by clungemagnet

That's great... but as the OP wants a job in England, it may be advisable.

These companies are putting hoops up, and the OP needs to jump through them.

Almost all American companies, banks, accounting firms etc. in the UK have UCAS cut offs too.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 33

clungemagnet

Original post by OMGWTFBBQ

These companies are putting hoops up, and the OP needs to jump through them.

Almost all American companies, banks, accounting firms etc. in the UK have UCAS cut offs too.

Most investment banks do not have UCAS points cut-offs, I think. Some don't even specify the degree classification.

I think it's better that way. Always looking for diamonds in the rough. You end up receiving thousands of applications, but how long does it take for a recruiter to look through one CV? And if you ask me, they should be spending more time looking for the right candidate.

It's really important to hire the right people, so if anything, the HR professionals should be given more autonomy when selecting the right candidate for the right role. At the moment, they rely too much on formal qualifications. I think relevance of a degree subject is far more important than the difference between 59.5 (2.2, I think) and 59.6 (2.1). Changes from 59.5 to 59.6 equal changes from 71.2 to 71.3. The same with the confidence interval - 94.49% and 95% - are they really that different?.

But for the Big 4, the reason for the stringent requirements is that they are thought to be correlated with the pass rate of the professional exams. You can qualify as an accountant through different routes.

Are they hoops you have to jump over? I am not sure. It's one way to reduce the number of applicants.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 34

marada

Indirect discrimination is where you impose a requirement that fewer people with a protected characteristic can reach without objective justification for the requirement.

If you have a shelf stacker and you impose a minimum height requirement of 5'10", fewer women than men can meet that requirement. To justify that requirement, it is not enough to say that you need to be 5'10" to reach the top shelf, you have to justify why all (rather than some) shelf stackers need to be able to reach the top shelf and why it is not feasible for shelf stackers under 5'10" to use a step stool to reach the top shelf.

There are two problems with this recruiting process.

Firstly, although the firm is a global one, it looks as though they are recruiting based on participation in the UK or Irish educational system between the ages of 14 and 18. Foreign qualifications do not give UCAS points. Obviously, fewer Greeks or Spaniards hold UCAS points than Brits, therefore the recruitment process will be indirectly discriminatory on the grounds of nationality. They will have the devil's job convincing a court

I could not have put that better myself. I really do question the legality of this. Based on the information from the OP I think he has a good case under the Equality Act 2010 and European law. Why not challenge this in the courts?