[Zestos]

I've been reading the God Delusion by Richard Dawkings, and he comments on this idea when speaking about Pantheists (which I consider myself to be) and dismissing them as 'sexed-up atheists'.

The idea is that the universe is like a well oiled machine, with every tiny component working in harmony, even at an atomic level. Did all of that come about completely by chance, or is that just what sufficient amounts of energy and matter does given enough time? Likewise, is life just what the universe does when given enough time?

The universe will 'die' at some point, just like everything else that exists. But life - or sufficiently intelligent life to be specific - might be able to slow down the universe's demise. So is intelligent life a vital cog in the machine of the universe? Was it certain to evolve from the moment that the universe came into existence?

If that is the case, then our universe is likely to be teeming with intelligent life. What's more is that other universes out there in the infinite void of space (in all probability, other universes will exists) are also likely to be teeming with intelligent life.

I don't know if I believe this - although I do think that it is a possibility - but the idea amazes me nonetheless. What do you think?

[MetropolisBoy]

hmm interesting stuff there

There is someone out there and we are not alone... The probability of any life form existing beyond our solar system is extremely high given the number of galaxies there are and the ever expanding size of our universe
Our universe will continue to expand, whether there are intelligent life or not, until it either contracts(closed), keeps expanding but at much faster rate(open) or expands forever but at slow rate(flat). No one truly knows the fate of our universe.

[Architecture-er]

I don't think the universe is sentient or is relying on intelligent life to survive.. I just think the our existence is self-fulfilling, i.e. we are only able to know of our existence BECAUSE we exist, if we didn't exist we wouldn't be aware of our non-existence. I'm open to the concept of creation, but I think the universe is just stuff, but it's an interesting idea

[Zestos]

I'm not saying that the universe is sentient. A tree isn't sentient either, but it stills roots itself to the ground and grows towards the sun to ensure its own survival.

[Shabalala]

I doubt it the universe isn't a "well oiled machine" it's completley random it's just there your theory might be true it might not but we will never no the truth of the universe or our existence it's just something that will always be beyond explanation we will die out as a species long before we have advanced enough to even begin to try and fond out.

[viriol]

Firstly, there's no way anyone can know the Universe will ever end (at the moment).
Secondly, putting it that way you make it sound as if the Universe has intentions (and therefore intelligence) itself (and some degree of freedom in its evolution). Would it need other intelligent beings in that case? Whatever the case, such a view sounds more like monotheism than atheism to me...

[Redolent]

I don't understand. Why would the existence of intelligent life slow down the universe's demise?

[Zestos]

(Original post by viriol)
Firstly, there's no way anyone can know the Universe will ever end (at the moment).
Secondly, putting it that way you make it sound as if the Universe has intentions (and therefore intelligence) itself (and some degree of freedom in its evolution). Would it need other intelligent beings in that case? Whatever the case, such a view sounds more like monotheism than atheism to me...

Not intentions as such. But you know how every part of the human body serves some sort of purpose, or did serve a purpose at some point in our evolutionary history. Why can't every part of the universe be the same? How can we be sure that the universe isn't just a tiny part of something bigger? Maybe our universe is to reality what a single cell is to the human body.

(Original post by Redolent)
I don't understand. Why would the existence of intelligent life slow down the universe's demise?

Intelligent life would strive to keep the universe alive for its own benefit. Sufficiently intelligent life forms might just be able to accomplish that.

[Redolent]

(Original post by Zestos)
Intelligent life would strive to keep the universe alive for its own benefit. Sufficiently intelligent life forms might just be able to accomplish that.

I don't think there's any way even the most intelligent of life-forms could do something that would sustain the universe for longer, it just wouldn't be physically possible.

[SnoochToTheBooch]

nah, that doesn't sound right.

[Zestos]

(Original post by Redolent)
I don't think there's any way even the most intelligent of life-forms could do something that would sustain the universe for longer, it just wouldn't be physically possible.

Of course it would be physically possible. Maybe not with today's knowledge and technology, but we're not a highly advanced species. Not yet, anyway.

Is it not possible that a highly advanced society could keep a sun alive by some artificial means, and keep a solar system in tact? Maybe even an entire galaxy? If it's true that the universe is full of intelligent life, is it not possible that an incomprehensible number of of galaxies could be kept alive via artificial means?

Remember that they thought that the world was flat at one point in time. Our understanding of the universe - and maybe even reality itself - could change just as drastically with time.

[Redolent]

(Original post by Zestos)
Of course it would be physically possible. Maybe not with today's knowledge and technology, but we're not a highly advanced species. Not yet, anyway.

Is it not possible that a highly advanced society could keep a sun alive by some artificial means, and keep a solar system in tact? Maybe even an entire galaxy? If it's true that the universe is full of intelligent life, is it not possible that an incomprehensible number of of galaxies could be kept alive via artificial means?

Remember that they thought that the world was flat at one point in time. Our understanding of the universe - and maybe even reality itself - could change just as drastically with time.

Perhaps we could keep a sun alive but as far as I'm aware most theories about the end of the universe would require counter measures way, way in excess of something as relatively simple (heh) as keeping a sun alive - I can't even envision the kind of technology such a task would require. And since we're kind of trapped in the universe we would have no means to affect it externally and could therefore only change things internally, which in itself would put a huge limiter on what we could feasibly do. That said, I know almost nothing about this subject so I'll leave it to someone more knowledgeable

[viriol]

(Original post by Zestos)
Not intentions as such. But you know how every part of the human body serves some sort of purpose, or did serve a purpose at some point in our evolutionary history. Why can't every part of the universe be the same? How can we be sure that the universe isn't just a tiny part of something bigger? Maybe our universe is to reality what a single cell is to the human body.

Not all parts of the human body serve a purpose. There are cells that don't work as they should etc etc. The reason most parts do have purposes in the human body is simply because if an individual's body is not efficient that person won't have very good odds of passing on his genetic material. No such mechanism exists for the Universe, ergo it is not reasonable to think of it that way.

[viriol]

(Original post by Zestos)
Of course it would be physically possible. Maybe not with today's knowledge and technology, but we're not a highly advanced species. Not yet, anyway.

Is it not possible that a highly advanced society could keep a sun alive by some artificial means, and keep a solar system in tact? Maybe even an entire galaxy? If it's true that the universe is full of intelligent life, is it not possible that an incomprehensible number of of galaxies could be kept alive via artificial means?

Remember that they thought that the world was flat at one point in time. Our understanding of the universe - and maybe even reality itself - could change just as drastically with time.

(Original post by Redolent)
Perhaps we could keep a sun alive but as far as I'm aware most theories about the end of the universe would require counter measures way, way in excess of something as relatively simple (heh) as keeping a sun alive - I can't even envision the kind of technology such a task would require. And since we're kind of trapped in the universe we would have no means to affect it externally and could therefore only change things internally, which in itself would put a huge limiter on what we could feasibly do. That said, I know almost nothing about this subject so I'll leave it to someone more knowledgeable

The sun is "alive" because it is "burning fuel". It will die of lack of fuel. Keeping it alive means either violating thermodynamical laws (which is highly unlikely) or giving it more fuel (of which there is just not enough on Earth, even if ther was means of taking it there).

[Mequa]

Pantheism is an interesting view, but revering the universe as some kind of deity does not necessarily imply imbuing one's view of it with anthropomorphic qualities such as sentience, desire or a survival instinct.

An indifferent universe is both more realistic and awe-inspiring enough.

[snozzle]

Sounds a bit Aristotleian. This idea of the universe having a kind of teleological purpose in amongst its physical properties.

[Andy_J]

(Original post by viriol)
The sun is "alive" because it is "burning fuel". It will die of lack of fuel. Keeping it alive means either violating thermodynamical laws (which is highly unlikely) or giving it more fuel (of which there is just not enough on Earth, even if ther was means of taking it there).

I don't think it would be possible either, the only way I can imagine "sustaining" the sun would be to replace the sun with another younger star using extremely advanced gravity technology to move them. I think with the 6 billion years we have to figure it out, if we are still around then that wouldn't be unreasonable.

[snozzle]

(Original post by viriol)
The sun is "alive" because it is "burning fuel". It will die of lack of fuel. Keeping it alive means either violating thermodynamical laws (which is highly unlikely) or giving it more fuel (of which there is just not enough on Earth, even if ther was means of taking it there).

How do you know that? Have you been to the Sun?

[Zestos]

(Original post by viriol)
The reason most parts do have purposes in the human body is simply because if an individual's body is not efficient that person won't have very good odds of passing on his genetic material. No such mechanism exists for the Universe, ergo it is not reasonable to think of it that way.

(Original post by Zestos)
Maybe our universe is to reality what a single cell is to the human body.

How do you know that no such mechanism exists for the universe?

Is it unreasonable to believe that our universe is part of something bigger? Something that we may not ever fully understand. Something that we may be physically incapable of ever understanding. Maybe even something that is "alive" in a way that we cannot comprehend?

Just playing devil's advocate here.

[Zestos]

And a lot of you seem to think that I am suggesting that the universe is sentient or has some sort of free will. That is NOT what I am suggesting. I can see how I gave that impression. Just to be clear, I'm using words such as "alive" in an extremely flexible way in an effort to explain abstract ideas.