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LLB What uni? HELP!

This poll is closed

Do you think BPP is a well respected Law school, from a Chambers point of view?

No, you might as well study at a uni ranked 93rd for Law 65%
I am unsure as the LLB itself is new. 12%
I am sure it is respected, due to its histroy in teaching professional Law and conversion courses but unsure about chances at pupillage 18%
Yes! I think it is a good option, just because it is new, doesn't mean its a bad option.6%
Total votes: 17
Hello,

I am applying for the LLB. I am having trouble in deciding, my reasons are as follows;

High ranked vs Lowe ranked?

My choices so far are;
Forgot to include: BPP
Croydon College- NO LONGER ON MY CHOICE
Kingston University
UCL
FORGOT TO INCLUDE: LSE

Everyone seems to be saying that the reputation is so important, I want to become a Barrister. My logic is that everyone applying to Bar school will have a 1st, so unless you have gone to Oxford or Cambridge, does it really matter that I have gone to UCL over BPP for example? I plan to do as much pro bono work with them as possible and shadow as many cases with a Barrister as possible. I am currently receiving support from a Barrister that I know and have been attending Court to get a feel of what its like to be a Barrister, obviously as a Law student I will up this to a lot of regular shadowing/ work experience. If I attend a uni that is further away, I will have less time to these things.

Can anyone advise me? I know places at Bar school are about 65 applicants to 1 place. Will my chances really be effected if I went to a very low ranked uni? If I leave with a first, plenty of work experience and show outstanding skills? (just assuming).

THANK YOU

EDIT: I have now got all the info I need to make my choice, although anymore input is welcome.
(edited 11 years ago)

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If you have the grades required to get in to UCL, then that's the thing to do! UCL has a significantly better reputation than Croydon and hence will aid you in your quest to reach the bar. I would even stretch to say that a 2:1 from UCL would be preferable to a 1st from Croydon.
Reply 2
Hello,

Thank you for your reply. Your right in that UCL seems far better however, I have been looking at the benefits of Croydon. Can I please state them and gain your opinion on that, I'm not as sure on the benefits of UCL, so if you have any points to add, id love to hear them :-)

Croydon

- Very small teaching classes, 7-12
- 15 minutes travel time from where I live (I run a business 3 minutes from my home, so i will have to remain here for at least the first year!) this means I can spend more time on extra ciric
- Croydon Crown Court across the Road
- Barrister helping me is regularly based in this area. (yes you can shadow Barristers you do not know but you can do far more with someone you know personally)
- The fees are £5750, £5200 after the £500 yearly rebate

UCL

- Highly ranked uni
Reply 3
A large proportion of those that secure pupillage have a 2:1, moreover, the majority have not attended Oxbridge.
Reply 4
Hello,

But do you think the chances of getting into Bar school are reduced, even with a 2:1 if you attended a uni that is really low ranked. Example Croydon, instead of completing the 2:1 LLB at UCL?

Thank you

P.S Is there anywhere you can view statistics of intake to Bar schools, to see what unis they were from?
Reply 5
A couple of things need to be clarified:

1) Obviously you should go to UCL, this is a no-brainer. If someone says otherwise in this thread they are an idiot.

2) 'Bar school' is incredibly easy to get into by virtue of the fact that the BPTC is a privately taught course. If you have the money and a 2:2 then acceptance onto a given course is merely a formality.

Hope this helps.
Reply 6
Hello,

Thank you for that. The thing I am stuck with, is that UCL is quite far from where I live, I think 2 trains and a tube, £3500 more per year (which I know reflects its higher standards)

Do you know where I can find any info on rankings, from what ive been told, Croydon is so low in ranks because it is mainly a college, less established etc so id like to find out what rankings are for the LLB individually. My opinion is that the LLB is the LLB, so you make of it what you make of it. As Croydon has smaller teaching classes, I feel this could benefit me more than UCL. Im just a bit confused at this stage as from other threads, everyone seems to be saying apply for the highest ranks but with little reason, other than the position they are on tables. I cannot seem to find LLB specific information.

For example, my college i attended was low ranked, it doesn't have a very good reputation as someone was killed outside not long ago and many "troubled" students attend here, it is not in a fantastic area either. However, nearly all of my class mates went on to uni and we had more distinctions combined then 2 of our higher rank colleges. Oxford, is the highest ranked uni but from this thread and other sources, it seems that few make it to be called to the Bar.

I want to know fact from fiction and what really matters in a uni. If it is easy to get into Bar School and you possess the grades and qualities, surely you have as good a chance as someone from UCL? If that is NOT true, of course I will apply for UCL but if when it boils down to it, it doesn't, then id rather attend Croydon and get into less debt, travel less and achieve more by way of saving time.

Thanks again,

Crystal
Reply 7
Original post by crystal1330
For example, my college i attended was low ranked, it doesn't have a very good reputation as someone was killed outside not long ago and many "troubled" students attend here, it is not in a fantastic area either. However, nearly all of my class mates went on to uni and we had more distinctions combined then 2 of our higher rank colleges. Oxford, is the highest ranked uni but from this thread and other sources, it seems that few make it to be called to the Bar.

I want to know fact from fiction and what really matters in a uni. If it is easy to get into Bar School and you possess the grades and qualities, surely you have as good a chance as someone from UCL? If that is NOT true, of course I will apply for UCL but if when it boils down to it, it doesn't, then id rather attend Croydon and get into less debt, travel less and achieve more by way of saving time.

Thanks again,

Crystal


The Bar is so competitive. The reputation of where you studied will matter because the Bar is still quite traditional - more so that law firms. Whilst I can offer no statistic - perhaps you can speak to Croydon and ask them for statistics of what past students have done post-LLB?

My only observation is that you should use this thread as an opportunity to actually listen to other opinions rather than as a box for you to convince yourself that Croydon is the place you should go. You clearly do want to go to Croydon more than UCL for all those reasons you listed. An LLB is not only what you make of it but it's about the teaching and the resources and in a way, the mindset. I can't believe for a second that you really need statistics to show you why UCL will be better than Croydon?

As for Bar school - it's merely a formality, like the LPC. You have to get the grades but really the focus will surely be on your Uni and your degree. Therefore, it's not about having as much chance as anyone but more about setting the groundwork to show just how excellent a candidate you are which would take into consideration university.

If you think it's difficult for Oxbridge to get into the Bar - why wouldyou think you'd fare better at Croydon?

Not trying to be patronising but just food for thought.
Reply 8
Hi,

Im not using it as a "box" to convince myself". I have said from the beginning that I have much better reasons for wanting to attend Croydon. I have the grades for UCL, so I am obviously trying to find whats best for me, I have no need to convince myself Croydon is better when I can apply for a variety of Universities.

Also, I am under the impression that the Bar is now quite modern, its about what you bring as a person. I am looking for opinions with some substance because all I can find is the same; "Go to the best ranked uni". What are the reasons for this?

You say... "You have to get the grades but really the focus will surely be on your Uni" but you have not backed this up. This is what im trying to get at, whats fact from fiction. I cannot find any evidence with the bar council ANYWHERE that were you studied is important however I would like to know about other peoples research into this, is this true? For example, after your LLB you have your Bar course and Pupilage, enough time to prove you have the qualities. Are they really going to turn you away because you decided to study local than travel and go to a higher ranked uni?

As for coming from Oxford, I did not mean they found it difficult, rather that most people called to the Bar did not study there. No one can deny what an outstanding university it is, which leads me to believe, given you have the grades, its all about you, your experiance and how active you have been along side your LLB. Otherwise, everyone at the Bar would be from Oxford or Cambridge. What im trying to weigh up, is exactly this. Status over qualities? There are enough Law students from Cambridge, Oxford and other Top unis to fill all of the placements in Pupilage for example but they do not make them all up. Which to me, discredits what you say about "they will surely look at your uni".

This is not about convincing myself, I want to know facts, to ensure I make the right decision. I have stated that I want to go to Croydon over UCL and why but that IF it was a fact that my chances would be dramatically reduced by studying here rather than UCL, then I would of course apply for UCL.

All I am finding about UCL is that they have a better reputation. On the down side, there fees are up with the highest, there classes are big and are quite a distance. Is it more stupid to apply to a lower ranked uni or stupid to apply to a uni, simply based on rankings? That is the question.....

Thank you for your tips, I have contacted Croydon but I will do so again. Every uni will claim that there students go on to be successful, this is why I was hoping to find some evidence. Saying that, I think that unis like BPP and Croydon get a lot of negative "stick" because maybe the majority are not that successful. Some people want to do the bare minimum and therefore chose the easiest uni to get into, lowering the standard of end results (assuming they are not aiming high). I on the other hand see no point in aiming for anything but a 1st, there may be many people in Croydon that are happy with a 2:2 because their carer path is different to mind, like wanting to work in the legal profession or simply obtain a degree. I have no doubt that I can do well at Croydon, I doubt however if I would do so well at UCL given my travelling and larger class sizes, which might sound ridiculous and a no-brainer to most people but these things really do count.

Lastly, my other option is Kingston, I know, from profiles and records, many of their Law students are successful and its a great place to study, yet on this forum I have seen it described as "awful" and other negative things which is EXACTLY why I do not want to judge merely on rankings.
Reply 9
P.S In case it helps anyone else who has commented here, I am going to post my information, I receive from the Bar Council, after I contact them this morning. Id still love to here peoples experiences with LLB.
Well, one issue is that your first from Croydon College will be worth less, in the eyes of employers, than a first from UCL. On average their intake is of lower ability and their academic staff is (I'm certain) of lower ability and so fairly logically the 'output', i.e. the finished student at the end of three years, will be of lower ability. Related to that fact is another point that if you want to go to university to learn as much as you can about a subject, not just to try and get as high a percentage mark as you can, then going to Croydon would be insane. In another thread I gave a number of reasons why the quality of learning at lower ranked unis is worse than at top ones:

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2038362&page=3&p=39781012#post39781012

Of course most of those reasons are also reasons why employers think that a first from a 'bad' uni is worth less than a first from a 'good' uni. Another point is that you will spend some of your time, if you are good, completely bored out of your mind at Croydon College as tutors explain the absolute most basic aspect of offer and acceptance for the 3rd time to a particularly thick-headed student.


There are enough Law students from Cambridge, Oxford and other Top unis to fill all of the placements in Pupilage for example but they do not make them all up. Which to me, discredits what you say about "they will surely look at your uni".


No, it doesn't discredit it at all. There is a huge difference between 'if you go to Oxford or Cambridge you have a better chance of getting to the Bar', and 'if you don't go to Oxford or Cambridge you have no chance of getting to the Bar'. The latter is not true even at the absolute top sets, but it may be nearly so. As an example of it not being true, http://www.fountaincourt.co.uk/christopher-langley/ - this guy got into what is one of the top half-dozen if not the absolute top commercial sets having done an undergraduate degree at Hull (and a post-graduate degree at Oxford). Nothing wrong with Hull at all, but it is not Oxbridge. On the other hand, nor is it Croydon College. If you look at the profiles of other barristers at Fountain Court, or other top sets, or even at lower sets, you will see a disproportionate number of Oxbridge degrees, followed by UCL, LSE, KCL, Durham, and all the other universities you may expect. You will very rarely see someone from a low-ranked uni (but they are there).

Also, I am under the impression that the Bar is now quite modern, its about what you bring as a person


I think this impression is a bit off. Personal qualities are important, you need to interact with clients/solicitors/clerks, and you need to get on with other members of chambers particularly, but the most important thing to have, by far, is academic ability. Or perhaps it may be better to say that you need both, but academic ability is significantly rarer than a modest amount of inter-personal skills so effectively the filter is going to be academic ability for 90%+ of candidates.

For example, after your LLB you have your Bar course and Pupilage, enough time to prove you have the qualities.


No, you just have the Bar course. The whole point of this discussion is that you will find it difficult to get pupillage. Of course, if you do get pupillage then you are right. A chambers is not going to take on a pupil, supervise them for a year, then decline to give them tenancy on the basis of their undergraduate degree. All they will care about at the tenancy decision stage is 'what was the quality of your work' along with 'were you a complete ********'. But assuming that you will get pupillage somewhere is extremely dangerous because, and someone will correct me if I'm wrong, less than a quarter or those who do the BPTC and apply for at least one pupillage ever get a pupillage anywhere. The Bar course itself is not going to be a huge factor in chambers decision to offer pupillage. If you get an outstanding they will probably take that into account (and if you get a bare 'pass' you are done for).

Bear in mind that I'm just an undergraduate and aiming for a career at the Bar as well. My comments on what chambers look for are therefore based on hearsay and my wider reading, not personal experience.
Reply 11
THE BAR COUNCIL

As promised, here is what they said...

It does not matter what university you have studied at as far as the Bar Council is concerned. It may be of importance when applying to one of the 4 inns, as they may take what university you studied at, as importance in their criteria. (Information from them at the bottom)

This is what the inner temple said;

We make an effort to take students from all different backgrounds.

I explained my situation and he agreed that assuming you come out with a good grade, it will be what you have done in your time as a Law student that is going to matter. He said he does NOT matter where you go your degree and confirmed that they take a large number of graduates that completed their degree through London Met (which is who provides the degree to Croydon University Centre). A student that obtained a 2:2 from Kings or UCL may have less chance than a student with a 2:1 from London Met. In addition, a student that has completed more mini pupilages and voluntary work and been an active student member of an Inn, will have a far better chance than someone with a 2:1 from a better uni, that spent all of their time working in an unrelated field, with little shadowing or voluntary experience.

He also recommended coming good references from Barristers to provide with your application to the Inn. He also explained that there is a difference between studying at a lower ranked uni because of personal circumstances, such as work and family, to which they will not discriminate against and studying at a lower ranked university because you failed to get in any others. That said, it is the above that is most important to focus on.

He actually strongly advised against choosing a university by reputation, as there are so many other factors to consider.

I hope that this info can help other people battling with the decision of connivance and price, other rankings.

Thanks for everyone who commented and good luck with your studies.
Reply 12
Original post by crystal1330
Hello,

But do you think the chances of getting into Bar school are reduced, even with a 2:1 if you attended a uni that is really low ranked. Example Croydon, instead of completing the 2:1 LLB at UCL?

Thank you

P.S Is there anywhere you can view statistics of intake to Bar schools, to see what unis they were from?


Page 45 here: http://cms.barcouncil.org.uk/assets/documents/120105%20Bar%20Barometer_05.01.12_web.pdf

UCL had 19 alumni get pupillage last year, the 3rd best uni in the country wih nearly twice as many as the next best London based institution (KCL).

The evidence of the 3 universities at the top of the tree here is that reputation is a factor, particularly comparing places like UCL to Croydon. I'm sure the teachers a Croydon are very good, but there's simply no competition in contrast to the standard of faculty at UCL in terms of research and for the Bar, with more of a focus on academic Law, being taught by such people will help you in the long term.

Another useful article is this (http://pupillageandhowtogetit.wordpress.com/2007/09/18/what-is-a-good-university/) by a practising QC involved in pupillage selection at his chambers. Note the line 'It takes almost no account of non-RG instiutions and no account of new universities. But that is how it is.' This is just his opinion, but it is a well informed one.
Original post by crystal1330

This is what the inner temple said;


You do realise that the inns of court are not pupillage providers, right? They won't reject you from joining their inn even if you are effectively a complete no-hoper, unless you have criminal convictions, are bankrupt, or are mentally ill, or the referee you listed says that you are the worst student he's ever had the misfortune of teaching.

Why don't you email inner temple back and ask them what universities the students went to who received their largest BPTC scholarships? That would be a truer picture of what the inn 'really think' about students pupillage chances.
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 14
Hello,

Thank you, the above is very detailed and factual.

I have no doubt that the majority are are white people, who attended a fantastic school, great university and come from a professional background. I am never going to be in that majority, apart from being White. I know getting to the bar will be a long, long road but I am not concerned about my ability to learn or succeed on the LLB. My concern is that I will be overlooked against other, more typical applicants. That being said, one of the top female Barristers in the UK has said to me today, that there are so many applicants, the criteria has become stricter but also wider, it is no longer about being a public school boy or having a Dad as a practicing solicitor, nor is it all about status. The Inns need excellent barristers, it is them who will make money for the Inns, in all, it is a mixture of academic ability, personal qualities and how hard you work. It also depends on your area of interest.

I guess the only true way I will find out is if I end up with a 2:1, gain excellent experience and fail to be called to the bar. I have to do what is right for me and I have a little bit more time to make this decision. In all, I think applying to Kings or UCL is the "safe" option but still has no guarantee about my future at the Bar. So am I going to go against what is best for me, on the gamble that someone may favor me because I attended one of the Top unis? It is a hard decision but I will update once I have decided!
Original post by crystal1330

I guess the only true way I will find out is if I end up with a 2:1, gain excellent experience and fail to be called to the bar.


If you get a 2:1 you may as well not even bother applying and doing the BPTC would be a waste of money. If you do go through with your decision to go to Croydon College then you will absolutely need a first, and probably the top first in your year, at which point you have 'some chance'.
Reply 16
Original post by crystal1330
Hello,

Thank you, the above is very detailed and factual.

I have no doubt that the majority are are white people, who attended a fantastic school, great university and come from a professional background. I am never going to be in that majority, apart from being White. I know getting to the bar will be a long, long road but I am not concerned about my ability to learn or succeed on the LLB. My concern is that I will be overlooked against other, more typical applicants. That being said, one of the top female Barristers in the UK has said to me today, that there are so many applicants, the criteria has become stricter but also wider, it is no longer about being a public school boy or having a Dad as a practicing solicitor, nor is it all about status. The Inns need excellent barristers, it is them who will make money for the Inns, in all, it is a mixture of academic ability, personal qualities and how hard you work. It also depends on your area of interest.

I guess the only true way I will find out is if I end up with a 2:1, gain excellent experience and fail to be called to the bar. I have to do what is right for me and I have a little bit more time to make this decision. In all, I think applying to Kings or UCL is the "safe" option but still has no guarantee about my future at the Bar. So am I going to go against what is best for me, on the gamble that someone may favor me because I attended one of the Top unis? It is a hard decision but I will update once I have decided!


May be worth contacting Simon Myerson, the guy who writes pupillageandhow..., as he seems to pay attention to pupillage stuff.

The other option is to post on RoF where there a few practising barristers (will probably be referred to as 'wig jockeys' or 'bazzas' by any reply) and loads of solicitors who can give an honest opinion anonymously without risking blowing apart their chambers' entire widening access policy.
Reply 17
Original post by crystal1330
It is a hard decision but I will update once I have decided!


I am interested in what you decide so please do update. Actually this whole thread has been very interesting in what the "official line" is from Inns and what users on here have said. Good luck! :smile:
Is this a serious question?
Reply 19
have you considered city university london instead of kingston. Even though their requirements are ridiculous, i got in with BCC through clearing.

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