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HMRC Tax Professional Development Program

Hi there,

This is my first ever post on this forum but as a student I've been referring to a lot of posts here and have found it amazingly useful! Now that I've graduated I thought I'd join up and provide some advice to the next generation. However, I did have a question myself on the HMRC grad scheme and thought you guys could help me out?

Currently I'm on the ATT scheme at a Big 4 and am slightly put off by the low salary and progression opportunities at this particular firm. I've been looking to join other firms but then I came across the HMRC grad scheme.
The info they provide on their website isn't always very clear so I was wondering if there was anyone out there who's been there, done that and can possibly clear some of my queries?

Starting salary is good (approx. 29k in London), rising to over 50k after 4 years. They say I will be promoted to a grade 7 post. What comes after a grade 7 post? What are the salaries and roles like there?

You get put through a tax degree acredited by MMU, but it isn't a professional qualification after all such as ATT, CTA, or ACA. So what are my opportunities after completing the program? If I wanted to can I go on to work for a Big 4 or another professional services firm without any formal qualifications but only 4 years of experience? Or is there scope for sponsorship to study for ATT, CTA, or even ACA whilst at HMRC (or if I self funded these would I satify their strict work experience criteria)?

What would I actually be doing working as a tax professional at HMRC? Is it answering phones to agents and clients? Or am I out and about investigating, consulting and advising?

Sorry about the long post! I just had to get my head around this and there just isn't enough clear info on their own website!

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Reply 1

monk_keys

I applied for this last year, don't you need a degree?

Reply 2

Brandon26

Original post by monk_keys

I applied for this last year, don't you need a degree?

Yes you do. And I have one lol. I suppose it wasn't clear from my thread. How was your experience?

Reply 3

monk_keys

Largely good, I got to the final assessment centre (there were 9k applications in all) but didn't get an offer for London which was the only place I'd have considered.

My main apprehension was basically the unknown aspect of the accredited degree and the ability to move around when I left HMRC.

Reply 4

bowen22

Head over to the Public Sector as there is a thread which probably answers all your questions.

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1510865&page=39&p=40046385#post40046385

Reply 5

Brandon26

Hi Bowen22,

Thanks for the link but I've seen it before and it doesn't really answer my concerns. It's just the guys talking about the actually assessment centre :frown:

.

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Reply 6

Brotherhood

Original post by Brandon26

How is the Big4 low salary (after you qualify) and slow progression? You get promoted every year more or less.

Reply 7

Brandon26

Not all Big4 are the same and in fact operate very differently. It also varies massively between lines of services. The particular firm I'm at now pays nothing near their competitors and you definitely do not get promoted every year. In that case I would be a partner in 6 years wouldn't I?

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Reply 8

Brotherhood

Original post by Brandon26

Well no, you wouldn't as there are more than six grade between first year and partner. I'm pretty sure our youngest partner was promoted every year and made partner in 9/10 years. Obviously that's not going to be everyone but you are pretty much promoted every year until manager.

Which firm is it?

Reply 9

RJI

In answer to the original question - The programme HMRC offers is one of the best I have come across.

- Good salary (although civil service pay will never compete with senior private sector money)
-Grade 7 is the start of senior management within HMRC, further progression is to grade 6 and SCS (senior civil service) if you are the 'best of the best'.

- You will study every aspect of tax ranging from indirect taxes to direct tax as the tax professional role is generally the one which will conducting enquiries and investigations.

-In the first 4 year you're assigned to an office where you work 3 days a week, attend a tutorial on the 4th and 'self-study' on the 5th.

-The first 2 years you work towards AAT which you receive on completion
and then the final 2 years are the degree from MMU.

Reply 10

Brandon26

Original post by RJI

Hey,

Thank you so much for the info! Just double checking here; do you mean AAT or ATT? Sounds like a brilliant program, I've submitted my application and online tests so hopefully they'll let me move forward to the next stage.

Are you currently in this scheme at HMRC?

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Reply 11

RJI

Original post by Brandon26

It's the AAT - Association of Accounting Technicians - It is not an accountancy based program (there is an HMRC accountancy scheme if that's what you're after) - it focuses on all aspect of tax, although you will cover accounting within the course.

Yea, I started the program this year and am thoroughly enjoying it so far!

Reply 12

acsh

Huh?!

I've applied for the tax programme but I had no idea that the qualification they put you towards is an AAT. That's a joke to be honest. I did AAT level 3 in my gap year before uni, it's not really a professional qualification, it's more like a junior qualification.

I'm going to have to call them up and get this all clarified :s-smilie:

Reply 13

thetaxman

I'm coming to the end of HMRC's TPDP programme so I can clear up a few misapprehensions.

First, AAT accredit the first two years of the programme but you do not study for the AAT award. After two years you receive a Diploma in Taxation accredited by the AAT because there had to be some external accreditation of the early years if HMRC wanted its trainees to go on to receive a degree. It could have been the ATT, City & Guilds or any number of other external bodies but they have chosen AAT. The first two years you study modules in bookkeeping, self assessment for individuals, business economics, VAT, intro to corporation tax and employment income alongside HMRC internal stuff like penalties and the rules on tax enquiries. In years 3 and 4 you go on to study things at Level 5 & 6 of the national qualification framework (final two years of a BA degree). The subjects are on business profits and tax cases, advanced corporation tax and capital gains for individuals and companies. The final two years are accredited by MMU and you get a degree in Taxation. In the past the HMRC graduate programme has offered a significant number of exemptions from the CTA qualification and I understand the new TPDP programme will offer something similar (although if you want CTA you fund it yourself and study in your own time).

On completion you become a grade 7 with a starting salary around £47-50k depending on London or outside London. From here you can work in tax investigations for large businesses or SMEs, become a technical specialist in a small area of tax, become a team manager, work in a policy role and loads of other opportunities depending on what jobs need filling at the time. Grade 7 is also a Civil Service wide grade and you could move to a non-tax job at Grade 7 if you wanted to. After grade 7 is grade 6 and then the Senior Civil Service and there are opportunities appearing regularly at the moment for those grades.

Salary wise it is a pretty good training salary, and compared to friends in Big4 firms the early career 'qualified' salary is good as well. But as you get more experienced the private sector does have much better salaries, along with healthcare and gyms etc, etc. But HMRC does have a good pension (even after the government has fiddled with it), is very family friendly and flexible and there are some very well respected tax brains in HMRC that could earn more in the private sector but choose not to because they balance the benefits against a better salary and stay put. It's a personal choice.

In the office during the 4 years of training the work starts off with small owner managed businesses and you are working with someone else or on your own in a civil tax investigation. As the stuff you are learning gets harder and more technical so your manager will provide you with work that matches it. In the last stages you will be working with large businesses on technical matters, often agreeing tax treatment of transactions in 'real time' (rather than waiting for a tax return to come in and then query the tax treatment) and negotiating with the in-house tax teams of multi-national groups or big 4 staff.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 14

Brandon26

Hi thetaxman,

Thank you so much for the detailed clarification! It would really help if HMRC put more details on the grad website to explain the accreditation process as well as other things. But you've literally answered all my questions!

The program sounds really good. I've done all the online assessments etc and now waiting for them to advise me if I have made it to the next round or not.

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Reply 15

acsh

Yep, that explanation was extremely helpful. I've just got a few more questions.

You mentioned that you could study for the CTA if you funded it by yourself, do you think they would allow you attempt to study towards the ACA and then embark on the CTA?

Is the job interesting, and what is the culture like in the office?

Would it be easy to find a job outside HMRC after the four years and how much do you think it would pay?

Reply 16

thetaxman

Glad I could help Brandon26.

Acsh those are some difficult questions. On the ACA side I'd say 3 things: HMRC employ lots of accountants and does occasionally run an accountancy graduate scheme so if they aren't running one this year they aren't in need of trainee/early career accountants. Secondly, no one from HMRC would stop you attempting the ACA and indeed you wouldn't need to tell anyone if you didn't want to but like for CTA you would have to study for it in your own time and at your own expense (HMRC train you in tax because that's what they need, if you want other qualifications you have to do it on your own time and your own dime). Thirdly, I seriously would not recommend embarking on ACA at the same time as being on the TPDP course as the study and work pressure would be too much. TPDP is intensive and while the study time you are allocated each week is generous compared to the private sector there are times, particularly near exams, when you will need to use evenings and weekends. Doing that and doing ACA at the same time would, in my opinion, be a recipe for disaster and you would serve neither of them well. By the time you've finished TPDP what would be the point of ACA? You get 50% or more exemptions from CTA and you have the degree and can get tax jobs in HMRC or the private sector. Unless you really wanted to do accountancy there would be no point to ACA (and if you really want to do accountancy don't waste 4 years doing TPDP just find a training contract that leads to ACA in the private sector). I hope that doesn't come across as too aggressive, I just don't want you to start something that's not going to lead you to where you want to be.

In terms of private sector jobs after the 4 years I can only give you informed speculation as I haven't yet arrived at that point my self but I have seen others do it. As I said in my previous post the Grade 7 starting salary (that's the grade after training) is £47-50k and from talking to friends who trained as accountants in Big 4 and second tier firms I would say that was a good 'qualified' starting salary and most HMRC trainees don't jump ship straight away because their equivalents in the private sector are earning less (or about the same but without the generous pension contribution and with worse annual leave and longer hours). After about 5/6 years qualified if you don't fancy progression in HMRC then that's about the time the private sector salary starts to become more attractive compared to the Grade 7 pay scale and is when HMRC see some attrition.

In terms of finding jobs just search tax jobs on Google and you'll find loads. There are plenty of vacancies in personal tax, VAT, general corporate tax, transfer pricing, tonnage tax, capital gains and all other tax regimes you can think of. With a few years HMRC experience in a specialised area you will be able to move to the private sector without too much problem. Many ask for CTA or ACA but if you give them a call (and I've tried this to test the waters for my self) most will accept HMRC's qualification in lieu. 5/6 years in your experience counts much more, except for areas (like auditing) where professional regulation is essential.

I would really recommend you read this report from Pro-Tax. They are recruitment consultants for tax jobs and the report is a review of salaries in the tax sector for the year. For guidance I would say straight after your 4 years training you would be the equivalent of a Tax Consultant to use Pro-Tax's term and 5/6 years after qualification you would be Tax Manager or even Tax Senior Manager level depending on what you had spent your 5/6 years doing at HMRC. I'd draw your attention in particular to the bit on page 9 or 10 about tax investigation specialists and recent increases in salaries and vacancies. While HMRC and the private sector can give you similar technical training (albeit for a different qualification) it can't be doubted that HMRC have the upper hand on training people for investigation work and this is an area of the private sector that HMRC loses a lot of good people to because they can and do pay much better salaries for this area of work.

Gosh, that was a long post. Sorry.

Reply 17

thetaxman

I've just written a really long (too long) reply and it won't let me post it in one go. So here it is in sections:

Glad I could help Brandon26.

Acsh those are some difficult questions. On the ACA side I'd say 3 things: HMRC employ lots of accountants and does occasionally run an accountancy graduate scheme so if they aren't running one this year they aren't in need of trainee/early career accountants. Secondly, no one from HMRC would stop you attempting the ACA and indeed you wouldn't need to tell anyone if you didn't want to but like for CTA you would have to study for it in your own time and at your own expense (HMRC train you in tax because that's what they need, if you want other qualifications you have to do it on your own time and your own dime). Thirdly, I seriously would not recommend embarking on ACA at the same time as being on the TPDP course as the study and work pressure would be too much. TPDP is intensive and while the study time you are allocated each week is generous compared to the private sector there are times, particularly near exams, when you will need to use evenings and weekends. Doing that and doing ACA at the same time would, in my opinion, be a recipe for disaster and you would serve neither of them well. By the time you've finished TPDP what would be the point of ACA? You get 50% or more exemptions from CTA and you have the degree and can get tax jobs in HMRC or the private sector. Unless you really wanted to do accountancy there would be no point to ACA (and if you really want to do accountancy don't waste 4 years doing TPDP just find a training contract that leads to ACA in the private sector). I hope that doesn't come across as too aggressive, I just don't want you to start something that's not going to lead you to where you want to be.

Reply 18

thetaxman

Part 2:
In terms of private sector jobs after the 4 years I can only give you informed speculation as I haven't yet arrived at that point my self but I have seen others do it. As I said in my previous post the Grade 7 starting salary (that's the grade after training) is £47-50k and from talking to friends who trained as accountants in Big 4 and second tier firms I would say that was a good 'qualified' starting salary and most HMRC trainees don't jump ship straight away because their equivalents in the private sector are earning less (or about the same but without the generous pension contribution and with worse annual leave and longer hours). After about 5/6 years qualified if you don't fancy progression in HMRC then that's about the time the private sector salary starts to become more attractive compared to the Grade 7 pay scale and is when HMRC see some attrition.

In terms of finding jobs just search tax jobs on Google and you'll find loads. There are plenty of vacancies in personal tax, VAT, general corporate tax, transfer pricing, tonnage tax, capital gains and all other tax regimes you can think of. With a few years HMRC experience in a specialised area you will be able to move to the private sector without too much problem. Many ask for CTA or ACA but if you give them a call (and I've tried this to test the waters for my self) most will accept HMRC's qualification in lieu. 5/6 years in your experience counts much more, except for areas (like auditing) where professional regulation is essential.

Reply 19

thetaxman

Last, but not least, part 3:

I would really recommend you read this report from Pro-Tax. They are recruitment consultants for tax jobs and the report is a review of salaries in the tax sector for the year. For guidance I would say straight after your 4 years training you would be the equivalent of a Tax Consultant to use Pro-Tax's term and 5/6 years after qualification you would be Tax Manager or even Tax Senior Manager level depending on what you had spent your 5/6 years doing at HMRC. I'd draw your attention in particular to the bit on page 9 or 10 about tax investigation specialists and recent increases in salaries and vacancies. While HMRC and the private sector can give you similar technical training (albeit for a different qualification) it can't be doubted that HMRC have the upper hand on training people for investigation work and this is an area of the private sector that HMRC loses a lot of good people to because they can and do pay much better salaries for this area of work.

The job is definitely interesting and it's a cliche to say it but in my experience each day is different. Partly that's because you are expected to progress from very small owner managed businesses to large groups in a relatively short space of time so each case you are involved in is bigger or more technical than the last. The office culture is, as you would expect, different in every office. Where I'm based it is very friendly and relaxed and knowing other trainees I'd say that was common across most offices. The Grade 7s in my office are really supportive and willing to help you out if you need it and generally people are very positive towards TPDP trainees.

Gosh, that was a long post. Sorry.