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UCL or DURHAM???

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Original post by Selym95
KCL is not on par with Durham for Law. It just isn't


Durham's a lot more relaxed when it comes to the Lnat than KCL or UCL

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(edited 11 years ago)
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Reply 81
For me, the thing that is different between Durham and UCL was that I simply couldn't have afforded the costs of living in London.

Generally, most people seem (no, I don't have any evidence) to think that their academic reputation is similar. Perhaps not abroad, but I don't intend to work abroad (when I first graduate, at least), so I don't mind that.

Also, I always get the impression that the fact that Durham is "up North" is the reason why so many TSR people are determined to look down on it, as I could imagine most TSR users living in the South.
Reply 82
Students from both universities will be passionate about their subjects, as both universities are well respected. The feel of the university is a complete opposite, though. UCL is a city university, in London, so there is a lot going on and a lot of people to know, but everything is a little disjointed. Durham is in a more remote area, there are less people to know and less things to do. I visited Durham and got an offer, but rejected them as I decided I just wouldn't have much fun there (and I'm not particularly social). My best friend is at UCL so I've stayed there a few times, and personally I'd much rather be there than Durham.
Reply 83
Original post by intstud29
Lmao, this is not even worth replying to. Durham is the one letting in people with lower grades from certain countries you know as I have proved earlier.
Maybe Durham is better for "science" than UCL but I highly doubt it. Either way, UCL is better for most subjects and overall compared to Durham, no matter what certain overall UK rankings show.

Having AAA or BBB is overrated anyway. I am from another European country and I think it's strange to judge someone on only three subjects. We have to score well in all subjects at all levels.

Which means that GCSE or AS-subjects count as much as A-level subjects. That means you have to be at your best all the time, not just at A-level.

Internationals can't pay their way in anyway. I'll be paying £9,000 but there is no evidence that you can pay your way in at UCL. Quite the opposite, it is possible to pay your way in, into Durham if you are from certain country.


You're a foreigner and you are trying to tell me about my own country's universities?
Reply 84
Original post by intstud29
Who says that KCL is largerly medicine and paramedical powerhouse? We were talking about Politics/IR degrees here, but also overall rankings. For medicine, no one cares where you study, but for other subjects it's clearly very important.


I don't have King's student distribution per college. Do you have such data? If you do, please present it to us. Meanwhile, I'd like to reiterate that King's produces a higher proportion of graduates that are fielded in the medical and para-medical careers. Four of the five campuses of King's have students in para-medicine, namely: Guy's campus, Waterloo campus, St Thomas campus and Denmark hill campus.

The academic departments at King's are also mostly for medicine and the para-medical programs. Here are King's nine constituent Schools of Study:

1. Arts & Humanities
2. Biomedical Sciences
3. Dental Institute
4. Institute of Psychiatry
5. Law
6. Medicine
7. Natural & Mathematical Sciences
8. Nursing & Midwifery
9. Social Science & Public Policy

The medical school is the largest at King's with 2 thousand students. Aside from that, King's Dental school is the largest dental school in whole Europe. It also has a big nursing school, and other programs related tot he medical field. As you can see, these professions are some of the highest paid in the UK. So, naturally, we can expect that universities that produce large number of graduates in high-paying careers would yield to higher salary data.


On the contrary, Durham is largely a social science, humanities school. Medicine and Law at Durham do not overwhelm the student body like it is at King's.
Reply 85
Original post by intstud29
Who says that KCL is largerly medicine and paramedical powerhouse?We were talking about Politics/IR degrees here, but also overall rankings. For medicine, no one cares where you study, but for other subjects it's clearly very important.


You fail to appreciate that we have a saturation of humanities graduates. A significant number of humanities graduates, even those graduating from top universities may struggle to find a graduate job,. They do earn less compared to those from the sciences and medical courses.

Furthermore, I don't think nurses earn more than IB/Law employees, so I don't think KCL produces that many doctors which can make KCL average salaries "too high" for your liking. According to UniStats, average salary for nurses after six months is £25,000 which is decent/very good and basically average when you look at KCL's average figure.


And after six months many arts gradautes are unemployed or not in graduate employment (earning below 25k). Conversely nursing has a high employability rate, even if nurses only earn around the average salary.

Queen Mary and City University have almost as high average salaries too - what kind of powerhouse would you call them ?


Queen Mary, like KCL and unlike Durham, also offers courses such as medicine and dentisty.

City is well known for offering professional courses.
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 86
Original post by ILoveTehran
Durham's a lot more relaxed when it comes to the Lnat than KCL or UCL

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Perhaps, however this doesn't prove KCL is better than Durham for Law. Look at LSE, they don't even require the LNAT.
Reply 87
Original post by S.R
You're a foreigner and you are trying to tell me about my own country's universities?


Lol, such a "great argument". So because I am a "foreigner" who live ONE HOUR from England by plane cannot know better than you? Lol, you talk like England is in another universe. I've been to England 16-17 times and know several students there already.

Yes, I know better than you regarding universities and which one is better, you clearly don't. By all means, continue talking about how much better Durham is than UCL and how "everyone" can pay their way into UCL, when the fact is quite the opposite, Durham is the one which takes in students with lower grades from certain countries.
Reply 88
Original post by Mr. Roxas
I

The academic departments at King's are also mostly for medicine and the para-medical programs. Here are King's nine constituent Schools of Study:

1. Arts & Humanities
2. Biomedical Sciences
3. Dental Institute
4. Institute of Psychiatry
5. Law
6. Medicine
7. Natural & Mathematical Sciences
8. Nursing & Midwifery
9. Social Science & Public Policy

do not overwhelm the student body like it is at King's.


I provided you data which states median salaries for Politics/SGIA candidates at Durham versus SSPP/War Studies at KCL.

KCL - £23,000 - War Studies
Durham - £20,000 - Politics

For postgraduate there is no difference which uni you attend (KCL or Durham) since all world-class unis consider KCL and Durham being the same. KCL and Durham graduates have continued further study at Oxbridge, LSE, Warwick, UCL, etc.
This is important because a significant number of students continue further at above undergrad level, and that is very important and impressive.

So I still can't see how Durham is better than KCL overall, there is no indication that is the case, except in a few subjects of course. But for Politics/IR/War Studies/Philosophy/History - KCL is better.
Reply 89
Original post by intstud29
Lol, such a "great argument". So because I am a "foreigner" who live ONE HOUR from England by plane cannot know better than you? Lol, you talk like England is in another universe. I've been to England 16-17 times and know several students there already.

Yes, I know better than you regarding universities and which one is better, you clearly don't. By all means, continue talking about how much better Durham is than UCL and how "everyone" can pay their way into UCL, when the fact is quite the opposite, Durham is the one which takes in students with lower grades from certain countries.


O_o you've been to this country an incredible seventeen times! We should just hand you your British passport right now. I'll just shut up now because I've only been living in England for my whole life and attended UCL so I clearly don't know anything about the country or the university.
Reply 90
Original post by River85
You



And after six months many arts gradautes are unemployed or not in graduate employment (earning below 25k). Conversely nursing has a high employability rate, even if nurses only earn around the average salary.


.


See my post above. I provided data which indicate that War Studies graduate earn £23,000 vs £20,000 for Politics at Durham. Just check UniStats for Politics at Durham.

For War Studies - check here:

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/campuslife/services/careers/departments/war-studies.aspx

So there is no need in talking about nurses here. The difference is still £3,000.

Yes, you are right, that is why many humanities graduates continue at MA/MSc level and it's actually how it should be. In continental Europe a MA/MSc is a "must have degree" anyway.

As I have already provided data earlier - top unis consider KCL and Durham graduates to be the same since KCL and Durham graduates continue their studies at world-class unis such as LSE, UCL, Oxbridge and other places.
Original post by Selym95
Perhaps, however this doesn't prove KCL is better than Durham for Law. Look at LSE, they don't even require the LNAT.


Well that's just LSE's policy but its true to say that most people who do get into LSE are predicted 3 or 4 A*s...etc so even though they don't require the lnat, they will have higher expectations for law students. You can't compare LSE to Durham especially for a subject like law.
However I think the fact that KCL is harsher on the lnat than Durham does prove that KCL is better and more competitive for law than Durham (don't get me wrong, Durham is a fantastic uni and I am aware that its a hard uni to get in to). It's just the same way as how UCL is a lot more harsher on the lnat than KCL (because UCL has a better rep for law than KCL hence it will be more competitive...)

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give it a rest, guys, and go enjoy the new year!!
Reply 93
Original post by S.R
O_o you've been to this country an incredible seventeen times! We should just hand you your British passport right now. I'll just shut up now because I've only been living in England for my whole life and attended UCL so I clearly don't know anything about the country or the university.


Lol, don't need British passport since I can access UK anyway. Not that I plan on staying since salaries are higher in my country compared to the UK.

Yeah, your whole life, that would be like 18 years is my guess. I am 30 years old so I think I know more about this than you do.

You living in the UK in diapers and attending kindergarden does not count as "experience". :biggrin: I was already an adult when you were in kindergarden.
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 94
Original post by intstud29


You living in the UK in diapers and attending kindergarden does not count as "experience". :biggrin: I was already an adult when you were in kindergarden.

Good for you. I'll see you at your funeral then old man.
Reply 95
Original post by S.R
Good for you. I'll see you at your funeral then old man.


Haha, proves my point. I guess everyone above 25 is an "old man" for you:biggrin:
18-year-olds..lol
Reply 96
Original post by ILoveTehran
Well that's just LSE's policy but its true to say that most people who do get into LSE are predicted 3 or 4 A*s...etc so even though they don't require the lnat, they will have higher expectations for law students. You can't compare LSE to Durham especially for a subject like law.
However I think the fact that KCL is harsher on the lnat than Durham does prove that KCL is better and more competitive for law than Durham (don't get me wrong, Durham is a fantastic uni and I am aware that its a hard uni to get in to). It's just the same way as how UCL is a lot more harsher on the lnat than KCL (because UCL has a better rep for law than KCL hence it will be more competitive...)

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But the fact it is a policy is significant; LSE feel, as does Cambridge that the LNAT isn't a significant assessor; Durham could very well feel the same but still require the LNAT for example; another less relevant factor for assessment, for let's say for sorting two candidates who are equal on everything else - so I stand by the view that 'strictness' a university has on the LNAT doesn't signify the competitive nature of the university; although it may seem this way on the surface.

You have suddenly introduced the competitiveness opposed to reputation which we initially discussed; competitiveness doesn't necessarily prove quality - although there is normally a correlation. On the level of reputation however, Durham does significantly better for City training contracts, and pupillage's - which one can argue does show the better reputation of the university. I also think with london universities, there is a stigma of 'eliteness' and quality which isn't necessarily accurate, which more often than not leads people to believe the likes of KCL and QMUL are up with the likes of LSE, UCL, Durham etc.
Reply 97
Original post by intstud29
I provided you data which states median salaries for Politics/SGIA candidates at Durham versus SSPP/War Studies at KCL.

KCL - £23,000 - War Studies
Durham - £20,000 - Politics


There are a lot factors that would come into play why King's graduates of War Studies make more than Durham grads of politics do. But before that, I'd like to ask the conclusiveness and reliability of the salary survey you presented. I'd like to know if all the graduates of both programs were surveyed and have responded fairly. For all we know, the respondents were done in random, and therefore, would not provide accurate information. I'm not saying that it's what actually happened. But with the lack of information on how the survey was conducted, and the absence of percentages of the respondents from each program being surveyed, it gives us reasons to think that the survey isn't conclusive.

I seriously don't think any educated company would pay King's grads more than they would to Durham grads solely on the basis of their university affiliation. And, I certainly do not know of a company/employer that hires King's because it is King's..., and not Durham because it is Durham. I don't think the Durham name suffers prestige amongst the employers, relative to King's. I've known many top banks and consulting firms that prioritize Warwick/UCL/LSE/Imperial/Oxbridge grads over Durham, but I've never heard employers that give priorities to King's over Durham.

And, whilst salary rates may tell about school prestige, it does not tell the whole picture. Look at King's vs Oxford in the survey list. Oxford is way more prestigious than King's, yet King's appeared to be superior to Oxford in the Salary ranking. Is King's superior to Oxford? I don't think so. So, do not pin your idea on a ranking based solely on salary scale that was not fully explained how the data were collected and how many participants were conducted.


Happy New Year.
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 98
Original post by Mr. Roxas
There are a lot factors that would come into play why King's graduates of War Studies make more than Durham grads of politics do. But before that, I'd like to ask the conclusiveness and reliability of the salary survey you presented. I'd like to know if all the graduates of both programs were surveyed and have responded fairly.

I seriously don't think any educated company would pay King's grads more than they would to Durham grads solely on the basis of their university affiliation. And, I certainly do not know of a company/employer that hires King's because it is King's..., and not Durham because it is Durham. I don't think the Durham name suffers prestige amongst the employers, relative to King's. I've known many top banks and consulting firms that prioritize Warwick/UCL/LSE/Imperial/Oxbridge grads over Durham, but I've never heard employers that give priorities to King's over Durham.

And, whilst salary rates may tell about school prestige, it does not tell the whole picture.

Happy New Year.


Thank you, and a Happy New Year to you too!

I don't know how many responded. I am just using stats I have even if it might be flawed but those are the numbers Durham and KCL use on their website so it must be at least fairly accurate if not 100% accurate.

Yeah, I agree that is why I said that KCL and Durham are for most subjects more or less the same, and in some subjects Durham is better whilst in other subjects KCL is better. That's why it is hard to understand why Durham is so "much" ahead in UK rankings when the fact is these two are actually more or less the same.

I do agree that Oxbridge/LSE/Imperial/UCL/Warwick are the "special ones" and in their own league, especially in regards to banking, consulting but also other areas.

These unis consider KCL and Durham being equally good since many of 1/3 of KCL War Studies graduates and 45% of Durham Politics graduates continue their studies at one of those top 6 unis. Which means after they graduate, they are no longer "only" KCL or Durham graduates - now they are graduates from one of the top 6 at MSc-level. From that point on, salary from undergrad are irrelevant anyway since they now have MSc from top 6. MSc from top 6 gives them possibilities to complete not only in the UK but across Europe, since MA/MSc is basically "everything" in continental Europe. Whilst those who attended top 6 at undergrad level only are limited in most cases to UK's job market.

So what I am trying to say besides the fact that KCL and Durham are more or less the same, is that these two unis are solid for continuing at top 6.
Original post by Selym95
But the fact it is a policy is significant; LSE feel, as does Cambridge that the LNAT isn't a significant assessor; Durham could very well feel the same but still require the LNAT for example; another less relevant factor for assessment, for let's say for sorting two candidates who are equal on everything else - so I stand by the view that 'strictness' a university has on the LNAT doesn't signify the competitive nature of the university; although it may seem this way on the surface.

You have suddenly introduced the competitiveness opposed to reputation which we initially discussed; competitiveness doesn't necessarily prove quality - although there is normally a correlation. On the level of reputation however, Durham does significantly better for City training contracts, and pupillage's - which one can argue does show the better reputation of the university. I also think with london universities, there is a stigma of 'eliteness' and quality which isn't necessarily accurate, which more often than not leads people to believe the likes of KCL and QMUL are up with the likes of LSE, UCL, Durham etc.


I believe that competitiveness and reputation are very much linked. There must be a reason why UCL puts so much more emphasis on the Lnat than KCL, and furthermore there must be a reason why KCL puts a lot more emphasis on the Lnat than Durham. Since Durham requires the lnat but doesn't put as much emphasis on it as KCL do, then the applicants have a higher chance of getting in even if they didn't do that well on the lnat. I really don't agree that Durham has a better reputation than Kings for Law. Also, if you look internationaly in general a lot more applicants are much more familiar with Kings than Durham hence the reputation does play a significant role here. Durham may be better for law in some aspects as you mentioned but that still does not prove that its a 'better university'. Each university has its own positive and negative aspects. If you were arguing for LSE and saying that LSE is a much better uni than KCL then I would agree with you since LSE has a much more better reputation...etc but arguing for Durham just isn't convincing or true (for the law course anyway). I still believe KCL is a better university for law especially because of its reputation. :smile:

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