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The national anthem - time for change?

LibertineNorth

No, a nation is a cultural entity, whereas a country is basically synonymous with a state with certain exceptions. The UK is a country, but is not a nation for example. Like you say, any good dictionary...

Britain has been called a nation for a very long time and throughout its history since the union of England and Scotland, and has been acknowledged as such by foreign sources as well. British nationalism is a well-established force. However Britain is a nation of nations, it has two competing levels of identity. And Wales is a country; it is just not a state. In common usage for a very long time the terms nation and country have been interchangeable, only the term state must be embodied in a sovereign entity. The terms nation, country, nationalism are the subject of heated academic debate and there is no consensus definition which makes them mutually exclusive, in the absence of such it is the prevalent usage of the term which dictates their true meaning.

Reply 21

L i b

19

uefacup81

I think what Segat1 was getting at is the fact that we are no longer allowed to actively celebrate our national day. Of course, the Scots, Welsh, Irish etc., can take days off and have late licences granted to them in order to celebrate - hell... you can even get one for Chinese New Year these days. But as soon as someone tries to get a late licence for St. George's day - the magistrates demand a better reason. :mad:

Well, you can do it...

...just keep it to your designated breaks at work. :biggrin:

I think you're deluded if you think anyone in Scotland cares about St Andrews Day. The vast majority couldn't even tell you when it was. As for Wales and NI - I can't say I have any experience of theirs.

But yes, St George's Day should get more recognition.

Reply 22

uefacup81

OP

I think the powers that be would even get uppity if we had a little St. George's Day celebration in our breaks! Remember, these are the same powers that advise public buildings against displaying the cross of St. George during football tournaments for fear that it might make foreigners feel unwelcome!

Reply 23

brimstone

7

In my personal opinion, Rule Britannia should be used as our national anthem. It's patriotic, vivid and exciting.

Reply 24

El Scotto

15

mockelinho

God save the King?

Just wait a couple years..

The monarchy will be abolished when old queenys dead.... hopefully.

Reply 25

uefacup81

OP

I like your style El Scotto!!
We can all live in hope!

Reply 26

Segat1

16

I mean, you don't have a public holiday to celebrate all things English, Scottish, Welsh or NIsh. Why not have one in Summertime, a long weekend where you can all bbq in the rain and apologise for paying for things with a £50 note? :biggrin:

Reply 27

Leigh

15

HistoryStudent

God Save the Queen is the British national anthem, not the English one. If England has one at all then it's Land of Hope and Glory. Yes, they use God Save the Queen at rugby matches, but they shouldn't really, as it's the anthem of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland together (ie. Britain), not of England individually.

So what do they play when England play Scotland?

Reply 28

username54863

11

England isn't a country? That sucks :frown:

Reply 29

Jim-ie

14

God save the queen/king works as long as the Queen (or King) is the head of state. If Britain turned into a Republic tomorow then it would need a more fitting national anthem, but thats not going to happen anytime soon :P I don't know about Scotland and Wales but wouldn't other anthems be used by Scottish and Welsh nationalists mainly? Same way nationalists in Northern Ireland see amhran na bhfiann as their anthem, official or not.

Could care less really, no one will ever agree to one anthem because there are monarchists, anti monarchists, nationalists of different parts of Britain, etc.

Reply 30

philjw

13

Jerusalem's lyrics are patent tosh - "And did those feet, in ancient time / walk upon England's mountains green?" erm, no. No they didn't.

Land of Hope and Glory is too jingoistic and probably deemed too offensive - "Wider, still and wider / Shall thy bounds be set. / God, who made thee mighty, / Make thee mightier yet!"

Let's stick with "God save the Queen" - it applies to the whole United Kingdom rather than just England, and doesn't smack of imperialism.

Reply 31

Carl

14

uefacup81

Sorry?? Have I missed the point here - England does have a national anthem; it's called God Save The Queen. Scotland has a national anthem; it's called Flower of Scotland, as do Wales (Land of my Fathers) and Northern Ireland (A Londonderry Air).

And just so you know next time, before being patronising with me - a nation and a country are the same thing - any good dictionary/thesaurus will tell you that! :wink:

^does not study politics

Reply 32

Carl

14

LibertineNorth

No, a nation is a cultural entity, whereas a country is basically synonymous with a state with certain exceptions. The UK is a country, but is not a nation for example. Like you say, any good dictionary...

I always have it the other way around: nation being short for nation states denotes the territorial area over which the state has the legitimate use of foce (IE United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland); and country being a geographical area where a common culture/language/whatever is, like Wales, Scotland, England individually.

Reply 33

L i b

19

King Leigh

So what do they play when England play Scotland?

They play God Save the Queen twice when England plays Northern Ireland. Quite amusing that.

Jim-ie

I don't know about Scotland and Wales but wouldn't other anthems be used by Scottish and Welsh nationalists mainly?

Nope. Most of them are folk songs - England doesn't really have folk song traditions as such, so they are sung generally just to be a bit patriotic or whatever. They're also used by everyone at sports events. So no, they're pretty well established for everyone to use.

philjw

Jerusalem's lyrics are patent tosh - "And did those feet, in ancient time / walk upon England's mountains green?" erm, no. No they didn't.

That's the flipping point! No, the countenance divine did not tread amongst those dark satanic mills - he went elsewhere 'cause despite the fact that it's so highly regarded, it still isn't Jerusalem - which is what you should be endeavouring to build there.

Now get off your bloody arse and do it!

(well, I believe that's the message anyway)

Reply 34

-Kav-

12

Land of Hope and Glory certainly has the most rousing tune going on but I'm inclined to agree with I Vow To Thee My Country now that it has been mentioned. It would probably annoy the secularists, though.

We should stick with God Save the Queen for a British Anthem.

For England, I always will want Land Of Hope And Glory. It always makes a shiver down my spine when I hear it strike up, like at the Commonwealth Games. I would love to hear it at other sporting events too, especially the football and rugby, as GSTQ should only be played at times where it is for Great Britain, or else is should be used equally by all nations of the UK.

Reply 36

dh00001

16

should keep god save the queen, but maybe bring back all 6 verses. why would you want to change an age old tradition anyway?

uefacup81

I think what Segat1 was getting at is the fact that we are no longer allowed to actively celebrate our national day. Of course, the Scots, Welsh, Irish etc., can take days off and have late licences granted to them in order to celebrate - hell... you can even get one for Chinese New Year these days. But as soon as someone tries to get a late licence for St. George's day - the magistrates demand a better reason. :mad:

Well no one is stopping anyone form celebrating St George's Dat.

And if enough people actually put the effort in to try and organise something, then more would happen and more of the powers that be would see this and agree to more going on.

And besides, the new licensing laws now mean many places can stay open longer of St George's Day without the need for extending licences. So, if you are so bothered about St George's Day, what did you do the other week? Did you go out? I'm sure you would've been able to find loads of places open. All you'd need to have done would be to go out dressed up in a St George's Cross. I wasn't able to go out that night as I had other things one the next day :frown:

Reply 38

Robob

17

Jerusalem is quality!!!!!

However I agree with ferrus, vindaloo would be the best national anthem

Reply 39

technik

13

uefacup81

and Northern Ireland (A Londonderry Air).

*******s. thats just a tune they had to pick for the commonwealth games.

i don't know the words to it and i can't even mind the tune at present.

the proper and true national anthem is god save the queen and thats the only one we need.

The national anthem - time for change?

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