We need a new University Application System

cant you understand

smarter people make more money
send the kids off to private school
kids have smart genes, cycle repeats itself

(in general) obviously

Abraham Lincoln is right. Dumbing down the education or bumping up poor students won't help in the long run.

I agree

I see students on here who have been taught sooooooo very badly but have tremendous potential

In maths we are lucky that good students can self teach (if they can avoid the pitfalls of taught misconceptions)

But that is not the case in many other subjects



So bright people suffer because they are taught badly and/or because their environment does not enable academic progress


But what is the real alternative ... any selection process can be coached for and the same individuals will be advantaged/disadvantaged

cant you understand

smarter people make more money
send the kids off to private school
kids have smart genes, cycle repeats itself

(in general) obviously

A proposed system such as this will favour bright pupils who do not get taught well, yes still account for the super intelligent people among us who do get taught well.

So our lives are just a glorified form of eugenics.

Wow.

I have to say this is a great story (I was hoping this sort of proof of background doesn't matter would turn up!).

You are right Uni's do not discriminate on background directly, but they do discriminate on grades. So if poorer grades were an intrinsic result of a poorer background then they would indirectly (and fair enough: unknowingly) discriminate again poorer background.

Many (like yourself) dig in hard and it shows in your work and achievements. But your achievement may be more valid then someone who's had thousands of pounds to achieve the same grades as you. You may be both as intelligent but the standard person on the street would admire your achievement slightly more (I know I would).

In your system

If I had money

I would send my kids to the bog standard comp to get the grade boost and pay for private tuition ... win win win

Having a system where money buys education is not good but I see no system where money would not buy privilege

or move to kent and send them to a grammar school

In your system

If I had money

I would send my kids to the bog standard comp to get the grade boost and pay for private tuition ... win win win

Having a system where money buys education is not good but I see no system where money would not buy privilege

I kind of agree with what you're saying with the ratios of state/private school pupils going to universities like oxbridge. However, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of going to a private school? At most private schools, the education is far better than most state schools and remember that you're paying to go to a private school. If people in state schools had a "better" chance, wouldn't it be unfair on the private school students?

Now, before someone negs me or quotes me calling me an ******** I would just like to say a few things:

1) I never went to a private school and I've been in state school education my whole life.
2) The education system isn't far at the moment and it'll probably never be fair as richer children are at an advantage to poorer children in education.
3) I'm all for equal rights in education no matter what your background is.

tl;dr: What you've come up with is a good idea but what I'm trying to say is that it won't be fair on private school students (even though it currently isn't fair on state school students). You can't win whatever way you go about this.

are you that ignorant,iq is 80% inherited

and iq exists because usa has the act, uk has the ukcat and graduate schemes require psychometric tests

But it is important to give personal evidence, as it backs up what I have to claim

Not really. University of Birmingham, is one of the handful universities which have an "Access" scheme. So if none of your parents went to university, or your household income is below £20k, and your area is one that has low participation in university; you will receive 40 UCAS points off your grade. So for example, instead of having to achieve AAB, I only have to achieve ABC. This has helped countless people I know, and has fostered the importance of higher education in many migrant families.

Your last point is valid, however, like I said it's all in the mindset. I don't want to feel or think that I deserve to achieve more than someone who comes from a wealthier background; I am happy to simply to strive and achieve my very best, regardless of others. Yes, some may be impressed; but that's irrelevant.

I always, I know this is cliche, but look at those stricken in poverty in the world. They would die to have the countless opportunities of what we have in our nation. Put it frankly, we have it much better, than the 80% who live in poor nations.

The difference is Olympians and Paralympians don't compete together. They're in separate competitions altogether. If that were the same, the less advanced would be at less demanding schools and therefore would be less likely to achieve when it came to being employed after graduation. An employer would look and two CV's and see one person coming from a top school and another from an average and less advanced school. Which would you pick?

If you needed someone to run as fast as they can from A to B, would you pick a man with two legs or a man with one?

Unfair, I know. But the harder you work, the more likely you get the higher grades. If they let people in less qualified than another person, is it fair on the person who's got the higher grades? They may work just as hard but when you have to pick between two people, you'd pick the one with the highest potential.

My argument would be that it's like picking between the paralympian and the olympian for an arm wrestle. School is vastly different to university.

I would claim that the person who went to a less privileged school or simply had a more unfortunate life (i.e. a private school kid who was ill/lost a familiy member) would be better adapted to cope with the new ball game that is University.

You put someone who's had money and comfort their whole life, and someone whose had to work and graft for things in to the deep end together, who will swim?

And your point on running different races? We had a grammar school system (which is employed throughout Europe successfully) years ago with an 11+ system. This actually creates a fair well rounded work force.

Firstly, I meant school as a whole, a place of education, including university.

Secondly, if you argue about different people who led different lives, like one with a comfortable life and one who was ill or suffered a bereavement, that's what a personal statement is for. Universities already take that sort of thing into account.

And the 11+ system decides whether a student go to a certain school. Determining whether a child would be bored and find classes easy or would struggle depending on the school. If you put those two schools with students from year 7 together in an exam, all on teams supporting their school, who would you expect to win? The students in the school who beat everyone else in the exams during the 11+.

So what's to with having a system that abolishes discrimination on money by abolishing privates schools and introducing a system which discriminates on intelligence.

I realise your point. But the majority of people here disagree because they are used to a system. It's in some human's nature to reject change.

What I want is to change mentality to those who have a tougher time for reasons beyond their control. (Uni's take this into account- but not enough)

The human race needs to develop. Although my ideas are left wing, everyone should have an equal and fair opportunity and those who wish to discriminate against that are only doing so for self-benefit. This kind of self-benefit mentality fuels the worst aspects of human society.

2 weeks ago I had a thought.

If an able bodied Olympic runner broke the world record for a marathon they would have achieved something great and many would pause to appreciate this achievement.

If a Paralympian ran a marathon and came within 15 minutes of that new world record, the world would be held in awe.

The greatest achievement would of course be the latter, because the Paralympian had to deal with harder conditions.

If a panel was tasked at picking a person based on their achievement, determination and sheer motivation than the Paralympian would rightfully be chosen.

Now picture a University system whereby those who are more privileged receive a better shot at higher education than those who are less privileged who work just as hard because of the conditions the pupil has to work in. (i.e. less access to HE admissions tutors/practice interviews/speaking with academics/poorer tuition/lower income/bereavement/being in care/disability).

When it comes to universities (especially Oxbridge) the argument is that the fastest marathon times (i.e. the highest grades/aptitude) win. I realise the interview/system is made to pick out raw/natural talent but I doubt an admission tutor can consistently differentiate the well trained public school kid, from the nervous but possibly 'genius' state school kid.

My preposition would be to have a "leveller" a system whereby grades are bumped up for kids in less privileged positions to fairly compare the achievement shown in their studies. An equation would have to be developed accounting factors mentioned above to produce an artificial points system (based on UMS/GCSE/SAT scores and school information), this would then be reviewed for each person based on individual circumstances against descriptors to ensure a fair artificial point score. (unfair points assigned can be appealed of course).

I realise:
a) This may discriminate against public schools but only an elite 7% can afford these, whereas Oxbridge (for example) is represented by a 60/40 state/private school demographic (surely it should be represented by a 93/7 demographic). This is not discrimination, this is removing discrimination

b)It would be difficult to put into place such a difficult system but this investment represents a free, fair nation.

c) Pupils may struggle to cope above their usual level of work (if there grades were generously bumped up)...however:

i) Research has shown that pupils from less privileged backgrounds do just as well at university when such a system is applied (if not better as they can cope with adverse/new conditions).

ii) An 'adaptability' test could be incurred where pupils' ability to adjust is tested to ensure pupils who would struggle are sent to a better suited university- this would only be used on pupils whose artificial points score are significantly higher than their actual grades.

Click here for a source which provides a balanced viewpoint.

Discuss.

EDIT: Streaming sets in Uni's would allow for those most academically able to still be pushed.

EDIT (II): I'm very happy with the Universities I have offers from, my opinions are based on observations which I've tried to keep as neutral as possible.