Brightest pupils 'failed' by state schools
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This is something I do feel strongly about, because it's something I suffered for my GCSEs. The vast majority of my lessons were composed of doing very little, because people simply weren't willing to make the effort and/or should never have been doing the GCSE in the first place. Case in point was my French class - there were 3 or 4 of us in there who were aiming for As and A*s, but my teacher was hellbent on getting everybody else, including F grade predicted candidates, to a C grade. I gained so little, it was so frustrating. Some people in my class even admitted to only doing the GCSE because there was a trip to Paris planned! I don't necessarily blame my teacher for it either, because that's what she's judged against: the number of C grades and above her students achieve.
Same with Geography, I was forced to explain things to everybody and my teacher refused to push me. In fact, she purposefully under-marked my mock papers to make it seem like she had a use, when in reality she was just undermining my confidence. Science was similar, I might as well have not been there; the teaching was atrocious and any enthusiasm I may have had for the subject died rapidly.
Sixth form has been a joy, because nobody has got in my way - people have actually gone out of their way to help me. That barely happened at my high school.
This may sound whiny, but it was an experience that infuriated me throughout high school and it's an experience I'd hate for others to go through.
Same with Geography, I was forced to explain things to everybody and my teacher refused to push me. In fact, she purposefully under-marked my mock papers to make it seem like she had a use, when in reality she was just undermining my confidence. Science was similar, I might as well have not been there; the teaching was atrocious and any enthusiasm I may have had for the subject died rapidly.
Sixth form has been a joy, because nobody has got in my way - people have actually gone out of their way to help me. That barely happened at my high school.
This may sound whiny, but it was an experience that infuriated me throughout high school and it's an experience I'd hate for others to go through.
Original post by shooks
That's how the chief inspector of schools Sir Michael Wilshaw sees it, anyway.
In an interview with the Sunday Telegraph Wilshaw says the most able pupils in state schools are being left to coast, and not being pushed to get the best grades they could.
"I would like to see GCSE league tables reformed," says Wilshaw. "The anxiety to get as many through those C boundaries have sometimes meant that schools haven’t pushed children beyond that."
In response he has ordered a report, to be published in the spring, of how state schools teach their brightest pupils.
___
It would be interesting to hear from state school pupils who've recently got high grades - does this tally with your experience?
In an interview with the Sunday Telegraph Wilshaw says the most able pupils in state schools are being left to coast, and not being pushed to get the best grades they could.
"I would like to see GCSE league tables reformed," says Wilshaw. "The anxiety to get as many through those C boundaries have sometimes meant that schools haven’t pushed children beyond that."
In response he has ordered a report, to be published in the spring, of how state schools teach their brightest pupils.
___
It would be interesting to hear from state school pupils who've recently got high grades - does this tally with your experience?
They are also left to coast in private schools with attention being paid to the kids in the middle as that is where the greatest increase in the school's rankings are...
Luckily there are still some selective state schools around, Pate's Grammar for example where bright kids are also given less help than the less able - but they are in a more competitive enviroment and so become more self-motivated. It's those that are motivated that will do well rather than those who are pushed to achieve anyway.
Original post by shooks
That's how the chief inspector of schools Sir Michael Wilshaw sees it, anyway.
In an interview with the Sunday Telegraph Wilshaw says the most able pupils in state schools are being left to coast, and not being pushed to get the best grades they could.
"I would like to see GCSE league tables reformed," says Wilshaw. "The anxiety to get as many through those C boundaries have sometimes meant that schools haven’t pushed children beyond that."
In response he has ordered a report, to be published in the spring, of how state schools teach their brightest pupils.
___
It would be interesting to hear from state school pupils who've recently got high grades - does this tally with your experience?
In an interview with the Sunday Telegraph Wilshaw says the most able pupils in state schools are being left to coast, and not being pushed to get the best grades they could.
"I would like to see GCSE league tables reformed," says Wilshaw. "The anxiety to get as many through those C boundaries have sometimes meant that schools haven’t pushed children beyond that."
In response he has ordered a report, to be published in the spring, of how state schools teach their brightest pupils.
___
It would be interesting to hear from state school pupils who've recently got high grades - does this tally with your experience?
Not the experience from my school, though it recently ranked 3rd in the county for average UCAS points at A2, beating a fair number of private schools.
It seems to me that teachers haven't the time to chase after non-achievers, in a vain attempt to make them achieve their best. So the students who listen, have a solid work ethic, and approach the teachers themselves to get extra help/explanations, get the attention. The slackers who couldn't be asked are given short shrift, and I don't see anything morally bankrupt about that.
Never seen an instance of the most able students being left by the wayside though, sounds quite bizarre to me.
Original post by shooks
That's how the chief inspector of schools Sir Michael Wilshaw sees it, anyway.
In an interview with the Sunday Telegraph Wilshaw says the most able pupils in state schools are being left to coast, and not being pushed to get the best grades they could.
"I would like to see GCSE league tables reformed," says Wilshaw. "The anxiety to get as many through those C boundaries have sometimes meant that schools haven’t pushed children beyond that."
In response he has ordered a report, to be published in the spring, of how state schools teach their brightest pupils.
___
It would be interesting to hear from state school pupils who've recently got high grades - does this tally with your experience?
In an interview with the Sunday Telegraph Wilshaw says the most able pupils in state schools are being left to coast, and not being pushed to get the best grades they could.
"I would like to see GCSE league tables reformed," says Wilshaw. "The anxiety to get as many through those C boundaries have sometimes meant that schools haven’t pushed children beyond that."
In response he has ordered a report, to be published in the spring, of how state schools teach their brightest pupils.
___
It would be interesting to hear from state school pupils who've recently got high grades - does this tally with your experience?
I was always in top sets and in the gifted & talented programme and in middle school there were talks of moving me up a year. My (state) school was the best in the town but even that got less than 50% 5Cs. I feel that I should have got mainly As. I got A*AABBBBBCCC, probably due to this reason - teachers got students up to a C grade, then gave up on them. My school had 200 in each year group. The year I did gcses 1 maybe 2 people got all A/A*s at my school.
(edited 11 years ago)
My experience has been the opposite - I went to two different schools in each year of my IGCSE's and A Levels. My parents wanted me to go to a good school when I started my IG's, so I started at a private school. I did dismally. I changed schools the second year, and went to an absolute trash school with not so outstanding results. I ended up doing really really well (6 A*). Exact same story with my A levels.
I'm probably just weird.
I'm probably just weird.
I go to a grammar school and although I agree with bringing them back, the story is exactly the opposite at my school - school focusses on the most able and in my opinion gives them the most support and praise. No one at my school recognises progress or effort, just the top grades which as you can imagine is quite demotivating when you're trying and seeing better results and you feel you've come so far and nobody cares. In sixth form weve pretty much been left to our own devices which is fine when your smart but its obviously not a very good universal teaching style.
Think the (seemingly) unrealistic solution is to encourage and motivate everyone.
Think the (seemingly) unrealistic solution is to encourage and motivate everyone.
(edited 11 years ago)
I am not sure that whether a school is comprehensive, grammar, private, high or low achieving makes any difference as to whether the pupils individually want to learn. Some kids only go to school to tread water and wait to leave whether their parents are paying privately or not. There are disruptive children at all types of schools and there are hard working pupils as well. My three children have all gone to state schools, two to boys/girls grammar's and the other to a catholic comp then grammar for sixth form. All performed equally well and achieved extremely good results and went to good universities. Overall the children DO have to want to learn and be willing to organise their workload themselves with the support of their parents. I have friends who have paid an awful lot of money for private education and their kids results are only average but they have made a lot of social connections which I am sure will benefit them through their lives.
Original post by Shika222
That's exactly how my school operated. We were never pushed and were forever being held back by disruptive students. They didn't have the resources to dedicate to the best students.
We were just left to coast while all sorts of efforts were made to help those who had no intention of ever helping themselves.
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We were just left to coast while all sorts of efforts were made to help those who had no intention of ever helping themselves.
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Agreed 100%
Agree completely, it's the same in Scotland. We had 'mentors' who basically said it was too challenging to get 8 1s ( all A* equivalent) and to focus on the subjects we were going to take to higher (AS equivalent) so some of the people who could get all 1s ended up with some 2s (A equivalent) because the school was more focused on getting credit passes (1 or 2) than the 1s people should have got. Also they plonk lots of average intelligence people in the top sets and just slow them down so much as there is 30 per top set where as the stupid troublemakers get classes of 10. The huge classes just made the smartest coast throughout and lose focus in class.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by GooglyEyedMonster
I went to a large (1500+) state school with a satisfactory OFSTED so nothing special. I found my teachers loved that I wanted to learn so were more than happy to push me to achieve more through 1-to-1 support, more challenging class tasks and more challenging homework and were really supportive. I didn't have many disruptive classmates due to the setting, so the worst were in a lower set.
I got 13 GCSE's - 10A* and 3A's. I went onto the 6th form and got accepted into all 5 of my choices ranging from Cambridge Fitz. college to Kingston.
I've met a few people from fee paid schools. They have a good academic background but seem to lack in life skills and have this 'state schools are no place for a child mindset'. Now, I am aware that the 5 or so people I know are not a statistically significant proportion of privately educated individuals, but I think its important to balance education with the real world.
If I had kids I would have no problem putting them into state school. If a child wants to do well, then they will.
I got 13 GCSE's - 10A* and 3A's. I went onto the 6th form and got accepted into all 5 of my choices ranging from Cambridge Fitz. college to Kingston.
I've met a few people from fee paid schools. They have a good academic background but seem to lack in life skills and have this 'state schools are no place for a child mindset'. Now, I am aware that the 5 or so people I know are not a statistically significant proportion of privately educated individuals, but I think its important to balance education with the real world.
If I had kids I would have no problem putting them into state school. If a child wants to do well, then they will.
Then you VERY lucky!
Because normally in state schools, mixed ability groups meant there WILL be disruptive students, the teachers WILL try and help them thus neglecting those who find it amazingly easy.
In turn they aren't pushed or challenged enough thus nly ending up with 5-10 A*s and not 15 A*s like those in my grammar school.
This is the same with A-Level. I think state schools jst have the resource limit which means that top, bright students aren't given a challenge enough.
I come from a state school where I got 8A* and 3As, I admit that teachers only pushed pupils to get C grades in order to meet requirements. However, I also think that you need that motivation to exceed that grade - if you want an A*, the work at home is very important, you need to work for that grade. If you put in the hard work, then most likely you will achieve whatever you want to achieve.
Original post by sweetiepie
I go to a grammar school and although I agree with bringing them back, the story is exactly the opposite at my school - school focusses on the most able and in my opinion gives them the most support and praise. No one at my school recognises progress or effort, just the top grades which as you can imagine is quite demotivating when you're trying and seeing better results and you feel you've come so far and nobody cares. In sixth form weve pretty much been left to our own devices which is fine when your smart but its obviously not a very good universal teaching style.
Think the (seemingly) unrealistic solution is to encourage and motivate everyone.
Think the (seemingly) unrealistic solution is to encourage and motivate everyone.
If your good enough to go through the selection progress into a grammar school then they will naturall believe yo have the devices to efficently work on your own or ask for help if your unable to solve it yourself.
Surely you can't expect teachers to "tutor" you if you don't ask for help.
What's more whilst praises are good, I don't see why it's being stressed at the moment. What most grammar school does for motivation is "get good grades and go into oxbridge" - it's all the grades orientating movement anyway and it's what most students in Grammar's think I would say.
I call them failed prodigies, students who grow up being the brightest in their year, and who are pushed too hard, by this i mean they are forced to take there gcse's a year early. I took my English in year 9, and got a C, the majority of the class got a C, which is great for the school league tables, but unlike grammar or private schools which took their's at an appropriate time (a year or two later) and got a few grades higher were now stumped in applying for academic courses at academic universities.
I was then forced to do A level English in yr 11, which is higher then what most people who got As and Bs at gcse got, but to what extent will that rectify my C, I doubt by much.
I was then forced to do A level English in yr 11, which is higher then what most people who got As and Bs at gcse got, but to what extent will that rectify my C, I doubt by much.
Yes, I would totally agree with this. Although I'm 22, I went to a pretty bad state school. In fact, I was bottom of the set for all of my secondary school years and most people were "brighter" than me based on those intelligence tests you do in Yr 7. Low and behold, I've just graduated from a top 5 uni in PPE - got there just by pushing myself, whereas a lot of my old friends are either in Prison, doing drugs or have had multiple kids - all these people were significantly brighter than me but the state school system didn't push them enough past getting the 5 A*-C. I think it's also apart of a wider problem of the nexus between family and school - parents need to be more responsible for what their kids are doing at school, rather than thinking the school is going to do everything for them.
Original post by Sitrix
If your good enough to go through the selection progress into a grammar school then they will naturall believe yo have the devices to efficently work on your own for help if your unable to solve it yourself.
Surely you expect teachers to "tutor" you if you don't ask for help.
What's more whilst praises are good, I don't see why it's being stressed at the moment. What most grammar school does for motivation is "get good grades and go into oxbridge" - it's all the grades orientating movement anyway and it's what most students in Grammar's think I would say.
Surely you expect teachers to "tutor" you if you don't ask for help.
What's more whilst praises are good, I don't see why it's being stressed at the moment. What most grammar school does for motivation is "get good grades and go into oxbridge" - it's all the grades orientating movement anyway and it's what most students in Grammar's think I would say.
No I'm not specifically talking about me; there are always going to be weaker individuals in a cohort of students and although the support is available many students reject it in fear of being percieved as stupid; both by students and teachers, another reason why sets based on ability are good - you're less likely to be looked down on by those who find the particular topic easy and whatever.
Its interesting you should mention the selecion process as well - I know a lot of people who probably shouldn't be at my school, for example there is a girl doing just 1 a level as she couldnt cope with 2 let alone 3. I've come to the conclusion that (in my school at least) passig the admissions test is no indicator of your intellegence.
Yes in my school top set all got C's and above inMaths and English. Thus giving our English teacher to bottom set C/D boarder line students. However, they did gives us 3 extra GCSEs in year 11 to do in one year: statistics, English literature and Media. This compromised throat who got Bs & Cs in year 10 from getting those As and A*s as it was just to much we were an experiment.
On top of this C/D boarder student got taken out to have extra Maths and English tutoring we had a slogan "2+3" Maths and English plus 3 other A* - C grades, it did well for the percentage and those who were going to do well did well l, but I feel others were left to coast to the point that if they did enough to get a C they were happy even if they knee with a little more effort they could get higher. No real pushing unless you showed your commitment otherwise if you were on "target" all was good and you coasted.
Typically really of the average non-grammar or non-niche comprehensive.
On top of this C/D boarder student got taken out to have extra Maths and English tutoring we had a slogan "2+3" Maths and English plus 3 other A* - C grades, it did well for the percentage and those who were going to do well did well l, but I feel others were left to coast to the point that if they did enough to get a C they were happy even if they knee with a little more effort they could get higher. No real pushing unless you showed your commitment otherwise if you were on "target" all was good and you coasted.
Typically really of the average non-grammar or non-niche comprehensive.
This whole thing about state schools setting you up for failure is ********. You get what you put in. Work hard and you'll get somewhere in life.
I went to a comp which was in the bottom 50 in the UK and am now studying a good degree at a good uni. The difference between me and those from my school on JSA? I put in a bit of effort!
I went to a comp which was in the bottom 50 in the UK and am now studying a good degree at a good uni. The difference between me and those from my school on JSA? I put in a bit of effort!
I 100% agree, the schools were more concerned about their league tables rather than actually pushing students. For instance my friend got a grade F in maths, he only got 1chance to resit, where as I got 2 chances. Furthermore the foundation examination system I feel is completely broken, it's literally a brick wall to good gcse grades... I got C's in english 100% in exam papers yet they refused to put me on the higher tier paper. Same goes for maths until the end when they used it as a last chance mechanism, whereas I would've being more suited to the higher paper in the first place. This also strongly annoys me when it comes to enrollment day at sixth form, I was only told to do 3AS levels rather than push myself to 4, so I have to take up further maths by myself since I don't have an A grade slapped on my name...
I totally have to agree with this. Despite me being in a small state school of ~500 pupils, which was one of the better ones within our county (grades wise), i was never pushed beyond my capabilities. One issue that was introduced late into my GCSE year were "global targets", at which i was given a "global target" of an A*. These targets were based around the levels i achieved in the core subjects during KS3. How can a level 7 in KS3 in English/Maths/Science determine me to get an A* in French at GCSE? And the fact i was given an A* target was no motivation at all, if anything it dragged me down, motivation wise.
I understand that fact that you would expect the brighter students to do their own independent learning, but i don't see why they shouldn't be able to maximise the capabilities a teacher has to offer. There are two main issues that were the problem;
- During Years 7-9, everybody was together (less-abled children and disruptive children)
- Disruptive children overall
During years 7-9, everyone would have to learn at the same pace which meant we would have to wait for the class to finish collectively as a group. To be fair, the teachers would often provide further tasks, but all that is doing is further revision, not actually going onto the next topic. Disruptive children will always be an issue, it was a very big relief when most of them went off to college. I still have disruptive people today in sixth form, and it is incredibly frustrating when you want to get the lessons going, however it is only in one subject which is tolerable.
However, this year i am now getting my own individual tutoring for being a MAT student, MAT standing for Most Able and Talented. Despite this maybe being only every now and then, it is more than i would have received and that extra encouragement has motivated me.
But what can schools do? They can't exactly throw out all the disruptive children otherwise they wouldn't have a school to go to. It is a very tough situation for schools, one that needs to be addressed but with a very cautious manner.
I understand that fact that you would expect the brighter students to do their own independent learning, but i don't see why they shouldn't be able to maximise the capabilities a teacher has to offer. There are two main issues that were the problem;
- During Years 7-9, everybody was together (less-abled children and disruptive children)
- Disruptive children overall
During years 7-9, everyone would have to learn at the same pace which meant we would have to wait for the class to finish collectively as a group. To be fair, the teachers would often provide further tasks, but all that is doing is further revision, not actually going onto the next topic. Disruptive children will always be an issue, it was a very big relief when most of them went off to college. I still have disruptive people today in sixth form, and it is incredibly frustrating when you want to get the lessons going, however it is only in one subject which is tolerable.
However, this year i am now getting my own individual tutoring for being a MAT student, MAT standing for Most Able and Talented. Despite this maybe being only every now and then, it is more than i would have received and that extra encouragement has motivated me.
But what can schools do? They can't exactly throw out all the disruptive children otherwise they wouldn't have a school to go to. It is a very tough situation for schools, one that needs to be addressed but with a very cautious manner.
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