Brightest pupils 'failed' by state schools
That's how the chief inspector of schools Sir Michael Wilshaw sees it, anyway.
In an interview with the Sunday Telegraph Wilshaw says the most able pupils in state schools are being left to coast, and not being pushed to get the best grades they could.
"I would like to see GCSE league tables reformed," says Wilshaw. "The anxiety to get as many through those C boundaries have sometimes meant that schools haven’t pushed children beyond that."
In response he has ordered a report, to be published in the spring, of how state schools teach their brightest pupils.
___
It would be interesting to hear from state school pupils who've recently got high grades - does this tally with your experience?
In an interview with the Sunday Telegraph Wilshaw says the most able pupils in state schools are being left to coast, and not being pushed to get the best grades they could.
"I would like to see GCSE league tables reformed," says Wilshaw. "The anxiety to get as many through those C boundaries have sometimes meant that schools haven’t pushed children beyond that."
In response he has ordered a report, to be published in the spring, of how state schools teach their brightest pupils.
___
It would be interesting to hear from state school pupils who've recently got high grades - does this tally with your experience?
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yes, i have always thought this may be the case so its great to have some evidence to back it up.
i have always tried to argue that getting rid of selection, like in the grammar schools, has been devastating for intelligent pupils who cannot afford to go to private school.
school selection was their way out and now its gone they just languish in a sea of mediocrity and trouble makers -- the teachers certainly do not have to spend any attention on the quiet intelligent pupils at the front of the class.
i have always tried to argue that getting rid of selection, like in the grammar schools, has been devastating for intelligent pupils who cannot afford to go to private school.
school selection was their way out and now its gone they just languish in a sea of mediocrity and trouble makers -- the teachers certainly do not have to spend any attention on the quiet intelligent pupils at the front of the class.
That's exactly how my school operated. We were never pushed and were forever being held back by disruptive students. They didn't have the resources to dedicate to the best students.
We were just left to coast while all sorts of efforts were made to help those who had no intention of ever helping themselves.
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We were just left to coast while all sorts of efforts were made to help those who had no intention of ever helping themselves.
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It does seem to be the case. It's to be expected when everything is a quantitative target, though. Schools are judged on how many students hit a minimum requirement. Many schools struggle with this minimum requirement and have to devote a disproportionate amount of effort to pushing students over it. If you need to push someone over that minimum requirement, there's always going to be less of a focus on those who can achieve much more. There's no kudos for it, and no special target. Obviously there are statistics for highest achievers of A*s, etc, but the majority of schools aren't anywhere near being on those and probably never will be.
I experienced it at school (though this was some time ago - it's no new thing), and I've had family experience it too. I live in a fairly low-achieving area so a lot of effort is invariably put into dragging schools up from 3rd bottom to 6th bottom in the country. Anyone with a C might as well be Einstein, my younger brother's teacher (highest maths set) was seconded to the bottom set for the last six months of his GCSEs because their teacher had left, and he got dumped with a supply. It seems clear where the priorities are.
I experienced it at school (though this was some time ago - it's no new thing), and I've had family experience it too. I live in a fairly low-achieving area so a lot of effort is invariably put into dragging schools up from 3rd bottom to 6th bottom in the country. Anyone with a C might as well be Einstein, my younger brother's teacher (highest maths set) was seconded to the bottom set for the last six months of his GCSEs because their teacher had left, and he got dumped with a supply. It seems clear where the priorities are.
(edited 11 years ago)
We seemed to get a lot of that relocation/supply combination too
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plenty of **** teachers around... pay teachers a more appropriate wage for the **** they have to put up with and more competent people will be attracted to the profession.
Not a surprise to anyone, surely?
All you achieve with mixed ability education is a culture of mediocrity.
All you achieve with mixed ability education is a culture of mediocrity.
I went to a state school and don't think this is the case entirely in my personal experience. We were split up into sets (classes of varying intelligence) and naively assumed other schools did this too. The most intelligent students were dealt with by one teacher and the least intelligent by another teacher, meaning there wasn't any distraction or battle for the teacher's attention. It was possibly a problem in Sixth Form, however, when class sizes were too small to have this arrangement, as is probably the case with many state schools.
Yes. When I was in GCSE I was always top of my class in maths. That's because, at the time, I could barely speak English and maths was a sort of universal language, so I was fine with it. They wanted to put me in foundation and I had to fight very hard to get put in higher. No idea why.
I think the main thing that saddens me about being a 'high achiever' in a state school is the fact that being hardworking is still a trait that is scoffed at, even at A Levels. When most of the people around me think it's cool to do no work and coast through exams (unsuccessfully), it sometimes makes me question why I try so hard, even when I know I'm doing the right thing. I guess the atmosphere of "I actually want to learn and succeed" would be much more prevalent in private schools.
As for teaching, I'll be controversial and say that it doesn't make that much difference. The 'brightest' pupils will find ways to motivate and teach themselves, regardless of how crap their teachers might be.
As for teaching, I'll be controversial and say that it doesn't make that much difference. The 'brightest' pupils will find ways to motivate and teach themselves, regardless of how crap their teachers might be.
In many ways the statement conforms with my experience.
However, I do not believe in a divide in the schooling system, or at least, not a permanent one, or one which is set very early. People mature, migrate, as intelligent students slip and droop. Education should not be separated into pigeon holes for the elite to have an advantageous height to fly from, as the striving middles are left with a less satisfactory view.
However, I do not believe in a divide in the schooling system, or at least, not a permanent one, or one which is set very early. People mature, migrate, as intelligent students slip and droop. Education should not be separated into pigeon holes for the elite to have an advantageous height to fly from, as the striving middles are left with a less satisfactory view.
Totally agree..........especially between year 7-9, eventhough we did all the work and finished everything, people more able had to learn at the same pace as everyone else until year 10 onwards when you were divided by ability top set, middle set and low set based on the grade you could get at gcse.
Disruptive students were the worst thing, teachers would stop until those students stopped, and this would be very repetitive.........same students in most cases who simply won't shut up essentially and as a result it just wasted time on everyone else. The number of people who got kicked out of class still didn't bother to clean up their act, even suspensions didn't work, I never got why they allow such students to be in classes where they would stop productivity of a entire class.
The whole top set, etc division should be from the first year at secondary, if people are more able, they get moved up and vice-versa........with the disruptive students being taught in a completely class separate from those who want to do well.
Obviously state schools don't exactly have loads of spare classes or teachers which is the issue.
But I would say, generally this is a problem, but not with all state schools particularly those who are selective, grammar like or get high results....I can say mine was very very bad, until I got to college which was known to be very good........and boy did I see a difference, everyone actually did work in class, never once saw a kid get kicked out or shouted at or anything
Disruptive students were the worst thing, teachers would stop until those students stopped, and this would be very repetitive.........same students in most cases who simply won't shut up essentially and as a result it just wasted time on everyone else. The number of people who got kicked out of class still didn't bother to clean up their act, even suspensions didn't work, I never got why they allow such students to be in classes where they would stop productivity of a entire class.
The whole top set, etc division should be from the first year at secondary, if people are more able, they get moved up and vice-versa........with the disruptive students being taught in a completely class separate from those who want to do well.
Obviously state schools don't exactly have loads of spare classes or teachers which is the issue.
But I would say, generally this is a problem, but not with all state schools particularly those who are selective, grammar like or get high results....I can say mine was very very bad, until I got to college which was known to be very good........and boy did I see a difference, everyone actually did work in class, never once saw a kid get kicked out or shouted at or anything
He said that comprehensive schools had to learn lessons from independent and selective schools on how to realise the early promise of the most able children.
The lesson is that if a school takes the top 10% of an area's children, then further streams those pupils, teachers can more easily cater to the pupils in each class.
Teachers do their best in a state school, but there is only so much differentiation that can be done in a class where some pupils are incredibly clever and some pupils can barely write their name. Add to that the large class size and the fact that a large part of a teacher's job is behaviour management, a top pupil will be very lucky to get a minute of 1-1 attention in a day.
I'm sick of successive governments asking for better results but refusing to do anything about it themselves. We need:
1. Bring Grammar schools back. If state schools should learn from selective schools, clearly selective schools are doing something right.
2. Reverse the culture of 'inclusion'. The smaller the spectrum of ability in a class, the better for every single pupil in that class. So when 11 year olds come out of primary school unable to read or write, don't just stick them in classes with everyone else and hope for the best - put them on their own program.
3. Free up resources for smaller class sizes. We spent 13 years throwing money at schools for ICT - SmartBoards in every classroom, state of the art computer labs in every school. That money would have been so much better spent on extra teachers to bring down class sizes - at least in core subjects.
4. Allow schools to kick out disruptive kids. It seems kids can only be permanently excluded for violence, drugs, etc. If a kid is kicked out of a lesson consistently, he should be suspended. If it continues when he comes back, he should be gone. But most people will know of a kid that disrupts a lesson (or every lesson for particular subjects), gets kicked out, does a detention and then repeats for five years.
(edited 11 years ago)
I don't agree at all with this, I went to an average state secondary school and I did very well. I think it depends on the individual school and mostly the teachers! The teachers in my school were always willing to help and to push the brightest pupils.
I moved to a grammar school for sixth form and I found there was much less support for most of the students, and I did not perform particularly well in my a levels.
I moved to a grammar school for sixth form and I found there was much less support for most of the students, and I did not perform particularly well in my a levels.
Original post by Caitykinss
I went to a state school and don't think this is the case entirely in my personal experience. We were split up into sets (classes of varying intelligence) and naively assumed other schools did this too. The most intelligent students were dealt with by one teacher and the least intelligent by another teacher, meaning there wasn't any distraction or battle for the teacher's attention. It was possibly a problem in Sixth Form, however, when class sizes were too small to have this arrangement, as is probably the case with many state schools.
I was in top-set for everything in my secondary school (a state comprehensive) and a C was still the gold standard. The class was often disrupted by unruly pupils, and there was no real sense of being pushed to go beyond that which was de minimis.
I dread to think what the three lower sets were like.
Original post by Mr Faust
In many ways the statement conforms with my experience.
However, I do not believe in a divide in the schooling system, or at least, not a permanent one, or one which is set very early. People mature, migrate, as intelligent students slip and droop. Education should not be separated into pigeon holes for the elite to have an advantageous height to fly from, as the striving middles are left with a less satisfactory view.
However, I do not believe in a divide in the schooling system, or at least, not a permanent one, or one which is set very early. People mature, migrate, as intelligent students slip and droop. Education should not be separated into pigeon holes for the elite to have an advantageous height to fly from, as the striving middles are left with a less satisfactory view.
Everyone is better off if kids are sorted by ability. A C/D kid does much better in a class dominated by C/D students than he would in a mixed class. Selection is not about elitism, it is about admitting that there is not a one size fits all approach to all kids.
And when a kid leaves primary school their GCSE success is predicted, usually fairly accurately. A tiny proportion of kids exceed those expectations significantly. So there is no problem setting early or selecting early. The only people who detour significantly from those early predictions are clever kids who suffer some massive drop in motivation/behaviour, usually due to some home-life factor.
Original post by shooks
That's how the chief inspector of schools Sir Michael Wilshaw sees it, anyway.
In an interview with the Sunday Telegraph Wilshaw says the most able pupils in state schools are being left to coast, and not being pushed to get the best grades they could.
"I would like to see GCSE league tables reformed," says Wilshaw. "The anxiety to get as many through those C boundaries have sometimes meant that schools haven’t pushed children beyond that."
In response he has ordered a report, to be published in the spring, of how state schools teach their brightest pupils.
___
It would be interesting to hear from state school pupils who've recently got high grades - does this tally with your experience?
In an interview with the Sunday Telegraph Wilshaw says the most able pupils in state schools are being left to coast, and not being pushed to get the best grades they could.
"I would like to see GCSE league tables reformed," says Wilshaw. "The anxiety to get as many through those C boundaries have sometimes meant that schools haven’t pushed children beyond that."
In response he has ordered a report, to be published in the spring, of how state schools teach their brightest pupils.
___
It would be interesting to hear from state school pupils who've recently got high grades - does this tally with your experience?
I've done OK but I feel I have underachieved because of my school
I went to a large (1500+) state school with a satisfactory OFSTED so nothing special. I found my teachers loved that I wanted to learn so were more than happy to push me to achieve more through 1-to-1 support, more challenging class tasks and more challenging homework and were really supportive. I didn't have many disruptive classmates due to the setting, so the worst were in a lower set.
I got 13 GCSE's - 10A* and 3A's. I went onto the 6th form and got accepted into all 5 of my choices ranging from Cambridge Fitz. college to Kingston.
I've met a few people from fee paid schools. They have a good academic background but seem to lack in life skills and have this 'state schools are no place for a child mindset'. Now, I am aware that the 5 or so people I know are not a statistically significant proportion of privately educated individuals, but I think its important to balance education with the real world.
If I had kids I would have no problem putting them into state school. If a child wants to do well, then they will.
I got 13 GCSE's - 10A* and 3A's. I went onto the 6th form and got accepted into all 5 of my choices ranging from Cambridge Fitz. college to Kingston.
I've met a few people from fee paid schools. They have a good academic background but seem to lack in life skills and have this 'state schools are no place for a child mindset'. Now, I am aware that the 5 or so people I know are not a statistically significant proportion of privately educated individuals, but I think its important to balance education with the real world.
If I had kids I would have no problem putting them into state school. If a child wants to do well, then they will.
It's only the top state schools which can afford to care about their brightest students as a matter of policy. It's a matter of what is an incentive for the school, and in most cases in the state sector that extends to meeting the minimum criteria. Sad but true.
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