Forcing unemployed graduate to work in Poundland declared illegal

OP

It looks like the ruling applies to all cases where the DWP lied and told claimants they had no choice or they would lose their benefit.

Reply 3

tehforum

NO way?

I remember reading how she was filing a case against them on TSR and I thought "no chance".

Reply 4

Martyn*

13

So this ruling doesn't mean that people won't be forced to work in Poundland and such places? It just means that people will be more aware of the consequences of not participating?

Reply 5

OP

Original post by Martyn*

So this ruling doesn't mean that people won't be forced to work in Poundland and such places? It just means that people will be more aware of the consequences of not participating?

It means they can't be forced to do it, on pain of losing their benefits. The DWP have already revised guidance to jobcentres, informing them that they can't threaten people into it. The scheme is still open, but in effect they've made it voluntary. As numerous big employers like Tesco, Sainsbury and Boots have already pulled out of it, the scheme is effectively dead in the water.

Reply 6

Katie_p

15

Stupid decision. Fair enough in her case, IF she's got previous work experience that's at least a bit relevant to the work she's looking for. But across the board? Why should the state fund people who aren't looking for work, or who might be looking for work but have made no effort at all to get the skills needed to secure it?

Reply 7

Dez

Original post by jblackmoustache

I haven't read the article, but will this apply to the creative industries as well (music, art, fashion, media, etc?). This industry IMO is the worst offender

Good news if it is.

Posted from TSR Mobile

This is a different issue to the unpaid internships that plague the creative industries. Most "employees" of those schemes don't claim JSA. Still, this is one small step forward. Perhaps in 20 years the country will have changed enough that these unfair positions will be made illegal, but I can't see it happening any time soon.

Reply 8

OP

Original post by Katie_p

Stupid decision. Fair enough in her case, IF she's got previous work experience that's at least a bit relevant to the work she's looking for. But across the board? Why should the state fund people who aren't looking for work, or who might be looking for work but have made no effort at all to get the skills needed to secure it?

A key point in her case was that no meaningful skills training took place - Poundland just wanted shelf stackers and did not even provide training for that! Her argument was that the whole thing was a distraction from looking for an actual paid job. She has now found one and works p/t in a supermarket!

Reply 9

Really_now

Original post by Dez

This is a different issue to the unpaid internships that plague the creative industries. Most "employees" of those schemes don't claim JSA. Still, this is one small step forward. Perhaps in 20 years the country will have changed enough that these unfair positions will be made illegal, but I can't see it happening any time soon.

But that's a double edged sword. For example my council are one of the few who refuse to do unpaid internships so when they don't have the money to pay (like now because of budget cuts) they don't run internships at all. These internships are crucial for people who don't have someone to help them get a job.

Same with JSA, I was "persuaded" to do an unpaid 8 week 40hpw work experience placement while on JSA and I probably wouldn't have been able to get a job without it. It is very exploitative though and ideally it should have been paid.

Reply 10

A Mysterious Lord

Excellent news, if there's work to be done, pay the going rate.

Reply 11

Katie_p

15

Original post by Fullofsurprises

A key point in her case was that no meaningful skills training took place - Poundland just wanted shelf stackers and did not even provide training for that! Her argument was that the whole thing was a distraction from looking for an actual paid job. She has now found one and works p/t in a supermarket!

See, just wanting shelf stackers is actually fine, where there are people who have never worked in their lives and have nothing beyond GCSEs or O-levels. If they have academic potential, they can save up some money doing meaningless dead-end jobs and then pay for an education.

How many hours did she have to work, for it to be a distraction from job-hunting? I can understand if she weren't allowed to skip shifts for interviews of something like that it might be frustrating, but even on full-time hours, applying to three or so jobs a week shouldn't be that difficult.

I agree with the general spirit of the decision in her circumstances, but I think it sends out a terrible message to real scroungers, and screws up the system for those who want to work but have nothing going for them.

Reply 12

Dez

Original post by Really_now

But that's a double edged sword. For example my council are one of the few who refuse to do unpaid internships so when they don't have the money to pay (like now because of budget cuts) they don't run internships at all. These internships are crucial for people who don't have someone to help them get a job.

Same with JSA, I was "persuaded" to do an unpaid 8 week 40hpw work experience placement while on JSA and I probably wouldn't have been able to get a job without it. It is very exploitative though and ideally it should have been paid.

People who join an unpaid internship generally do have someone helping them get a job, namely the person paying for their upkeep while they earn no money. Not everyone can afford to work for nothing, and these schemes discriminate against such people and widen the rich/poor divide.

I won't say that unpaid internships are entirely without merit, but I think that overall, they do way more harm than good.

Reply 13

Really_now

Original post by Dez

People who join an unpaid internship generally do have someone helping them get a job, namely the person paying for their upkeep while they earn no money. Not everyone can afford to work for nothing, and these schemes discriminate against such people and widen the rich/poor divide.

I won't say that unpaid internships are entirely without merit, but I think that overall, they do way more harm than good.

That's very true, I agree. But unfortunately it seems that the options are either no internships or unpaid internships. This would increase the competition for paid internships up even higher if we made unpaid internships illegal.

Either way the rich will get in, maybe not because of money but because of influence. For example, Nick Clegg's uncle or whatever getting him his first internship.

I'm all for maybe introducing an "internship wage" of £95pw like the apprenticeship wage. I really doubt companies will pay otherwise, they will just higher someone overqualified for the job if they have to pay them proper money.

What are your thoughts on compulsory work experience from the Job Centre?

Reply 14

OP

Original post by Dez

People who join an unpaid internship generally do have someone helping them get a job, namely the person paying for their upkeep while they earn no money. Not everyone can afford to work for nothing, and these schemes discriminate against such people and widen the rich/poor divide.

I won't say that unpaid internships are entirely without merit, but I think that overall, they do way more harm than good.

I tend to agree, although I might well be one of the people seeking an internship, that doesn't make them right. They have been created by businesses as a way of underpaying people our age during our years of training and developing experience.

Reply 15

Really_now

Original post by Fullofsurprises

I tend to agree, although I might well be one of the people seeking an internship, that doesn't make them right. They have been created by businesses as a way of underpaying people our age during our years of training and developing experience.

But what is the alternative? Force them to pay and they will higher one of the overqualified unemployed who have been made redundant.

Original post by Katie_p

See, just wanting shelf stackers is actually fine, where there are people who have never worked in their lives and have nothing beyond GCSEs or O-levels. If they have academic potential, they can save up some money doing meaningless dead-end jobs and then pay for an education.

How many hours did she have to work, for it to be a distraction from job-hunting? I can understand if she weren't allowed to skip shifts for interviews of something like that it might be frustrating, but even on full-time hours, applying to three or so jobs a week shouldn't be that difficult.

I agree with the general spirit of the decision in her circumstances, but I think it sends out a terrible message to real scroungers, and screws up the system for those who want to work but have nothing going for them.

It can be very demotivating though. I'm not sure about this particular case but my work experience from the job centre was every working day 10 - 18. To then go home and sit and apply for jobs can just take it out of you.

I understand what you mean though, it's a tough balance supporting those who are actually trying to find work but not being too soft on the scroungers.

Reply 16

Skip_Snip

3

Original post by jblackmoustache

I haven't read the article, but will this apply to the creative industries as well (music, art, fashion, media, etc?). This industry IMO is the worst offender

Good news if it is.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Well no because you choose to take unpaid work in the creative industry, to give you a foot in the door, and like someone else said you don't claim JSA whilst doing it. Sure it's unfair, but c'est la vie :P

Reply 17

flying plum

Original post by Dez

This is a different issue to the unpaid internships that plague the creative industries. Most "employees" of those schemes don't claim JSA. Still, this is one small step forward. Perhaps in 20 years the country will have changed enough that these unfair positions will be made illegal, but I can't see it happening any time soon.

Actually, they are probably ineligible for it; you can't work or volunteer for more than (I think) 15 hours a week if you want to claim JSA, even if it's for free, because it is 'distracting' to your job hunt...even though you may well be improving your employability. Yeah, it's totally logical...

Reply 18

silverbolt

19

Original post by flying plum

Actually, they are probably ineligible for it; you can't work or volunteer for more than (I think) 15 hours a week if you want to claim JSA, even if it's for free, because it is 'distracting' to your job hunt...even though you may well be improving your employability. Yeah, it's totally logical...

Yep pretty dumb - you cant do volunteer work off your own bat for more than 15 hours as it will interupt with job hunting - but you can work a full time week doing essentially unpaid (or to argue it another way - your JSA which is way below minimum wage) work becasue the job centre said so.

Oh and I've worked for the irish equivilant of poundland - those guys are con artists through and through - no surprise they are jumping on this full time workers stuff

Reply 19

Dez