Do you think Oscar Pistorius is guilty of premeditated murder?
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Regardless if it was premeditated murder or not what he did was still pretty ****ing stupid so he'll be charged with manslaughter at the least.
And I have no sympathy for someone who is obviously that much of a bellend.
I have such a problem with the prosecution trying to paint this as premeditated murder. It seems so obvious that 'culpable homicide' is the appropriate charge (that charge is defined as the unlawful negligent killing of a human being). I don't think anybody doubts that charge would be a slam dunk and it would still result in a prison term. But it cheapens the most serious murder charge there is in South Africa to use it against someone who acted (as Tyler Varona says) like a bellend, at 3 in the morning whilst scared, in the dark, with limited mobility, in an undeniably dangerous country, as compared to someone who kidnaps and murders a stranger for their wallet in broad daylight. 'Premeditated murder' needs both intent and pre-meditation to be proved.
I suspect that Pistorius's fame and success is influencing the premeditated murder charge - sort of "we can't be seen to let good-looking sports stars get away with murder" approach even though neither the prosecution nor the defence's evidence supports it.
Surely by trying to push an excessive serious charge, the prosecution is forcing Pistorius to defend himself vociferously, whereas he might have been more inclined to plead guilty if the charge had been something that obviously matches his culpablity.
I suspect that Pistorius's fame and success is influencing the premeditated murder charge - sort of "we can't be seen to let good-looking sports stars get away with murder" approach even though neither the prosecution nor the defence's evidence supports it.
Surely by trying to push an excessive serious charge, the prosecution is forcing Pistorius to defend himself vociferously, whereas he might have been more inclined to plead guilty if the charge had been something that obviously matches his culpablity.
(edited 11 years ago)
Christ, how depressing.
People that haven't been presented with any evidence or a defence seem to have presumed the man is guilty.
People that haven't been presented with any evidence or a defence seem to have presumed the man is guilty.
Original post by Aspiringlawstudent
Christ, how depressing.
People that haven't been presented with any evidence or a defence seem to have presumed the man is guilty.
People that haven't been presented with any evidence or a defence seem to have presumed the man is guilty.
Well I guess he's guilty of something given that his affidavit at the bail hearing admitted that he fired the shots that killed. But granted that it's a worrying leap to go from that to 'he's guilty of premeditated murder'.
Not helped by all the made-up theories / gossip in the red-tops, either.
I think Oscar Pistorius is guilty of premeditated 1st Degree murder as I can't see a way a person could shoot their girlfriend six times without realizing it was his girlfriend
Original post by IrishPaddyBoy
I think Oscar Pistorius is guilty of premeditated 1st Degree murder as I can't see a way a person could shoot their girlfriend six times without realizing it was his girlfriend
Where on earth did you get 6 times from? It was 4.
i've heard that Oscar Pistorius has been arrested before and apparently he could get angry and aggresive
Coming from someone who was born and raised (for the most part) in South Africa, let me say a few things:
Most South Africans live in fear; which is not to say it is paralyzing fear though for some people it is. Rather, it's a constant vigilance; a heightened sense of suspicion on all that happens around you. You learn to live with it. I have lived in 4 countries and in a community of people from the Americas, Asia, Oceania, Continental Europe and I can say that all of them have been totally in awe at some of my very typical stories which from my point of view are unexciting compared to some of my pals. Almost all my friends have so far been robbed in their homes (or serious attempts) or hijacked (I was fortunate to have neither). One friend was held semi-hostage and was tortured as an 8 year old. South Africa is very dangerous. And what is worse, the police are totally and utterly unreliable. Which is why we have private security companies. Seems a bit insane, but if you can afford it that is how you deal with robberies/criminals. You don't call the police because they will pitch up two hours later wiping the fried chicken off their cheeks, eventually losing all trails and possibly stealing from you. You call your security company who are armed response units that will do their best to track down criminals. I mention this to illustrate that South Africa is not like Europe/England/America. We are brought up to be suspicious. Criminals are ruthless. Living in a gated community means almost nothing. It does add a level of safety, but it only deters some opportunist thieves. Guards are easily bribed - that's all it takes for someone to gain access.
So what would I have thought in that situation? Here is my thought process putting myself in his position (not saying it is what he did since we don't know until his trial starts):
I wake up and hear suspicious noises. Check if wife is okay. She's not there. My assumption is not that she's the one making the noises. My assumption is that somehow they've gotten to her - either secretly in my very bed they've taken her, or perhaps she did in fact get up to go to the loo but they were waiting for her or it coincided with their time of attack. It's 3am so I can hardly think straight about it. I have no legs. Do I put them on and risk wasting time while they possibly kill my wife? Nope. I get my gun. I hear noises in the bathroom. I am scared. I panic. I shoot. I think anybody would've done that, really. Well, rather, it could happen to anybody and it isn't impossible to think that way. People from comfy European safety standards think it's insane to shoot first and to shoot lots. Yeah, well, the reality in SA is that if you don't shoot to kill or at least really do damage you're most likely going to be the one dead and your wife will end up raped and then murdered. Graphic but it's a repeated story in SA.
Why did Oscar not check if his girlfriend was there? Well if it's true that he didn't I can only say that he must have panicked as anybody would. Or just assumed she wasn't there.
Why did he not put on his legs? Why would he have to?
Why do the ballistics (apparently) not match up with the fact he didn't have his prosthetics on? Well, it isn't unthinkable that he shot from above his head, reaching his hands up to take a shot. Why would he do it, I dunno, but it isn't unreasonable.
The point is that at 3am in South Africa when you hear suspicious noises you don't sit down with a pen and paper with some gin and a cigar to plan out your attack. You don't think about calling the police. You only think about saving yourself and your loved ones. All this with a clouded mind too. I don't know if he is guilty or not of pre-meditated murder, God knows and may justice be done, but a lot of the things he did are not unreasonable especially within the context of living in South Africa.
The one thing I do question is that presumably he had a panic button in the room (most middle-class houses and upwards have these in bedrooms) and he didn't press it. Though again, the heat of the moment and panic clouds ones judgement.
Most South Africans live in fear; which is not to say it is paralyzing fear though for some people it is. Rather, it's a constant vigilance; a heightened sense of suspicion on all that happens around you. You learn to live with it. I have lived in 4 countries and in a community of people from the Americas, Asia, Oceania, Continental Europe and I can say that all of them have been totally in awe at some of my very typical stories which from my point of view are unexciting compared to some of my pals. Almost all my friends have so far been robbed in their homes (or serious attempts) or hijacked (I was fortunate to have neither). One friend was held semi-hostage and was tortured as an 8 year old. South Africa is very dangerous. And what is worse, the police are totally and utterly unreliable. Which is why we have private security companies. Seems a bit insane, but if you can afford it that is how you deal with robberies/criminals. You don't call the police because they will pitch up two hours later wiping the fried chicken off their cheeks, eventually losing all trails and possibly stealing from you. You call your security company who are armed response units that will do their best to track down criminals. I mention this to illustrate that South Africa is not like Europe/England/America. We are brought up to be suspicious. Criminals are ruthless. Living in a gated community means almost nothing. It does add a level of safety, but it only deters some opportunist thieves. Guards are easily bribed - that's all it takes for someone to gain access.
So what would I have thought in that situation? Here is my thought process putting myself in his position (not saying it is what he did since we don't know until his trial starts):
I wake up and hear suspicious noises. Check if wife is okay. She's not there. My assumption is not that she's the one making the noises. My assumption is that somehow they've gotten to her - either secretly in my very bed they've taken her, or perhaps she did in fact get up to go to the loo but they were waiting for her or it coincided with their time of attack. It's 3am so I can hardly think straight about it. I have no legs. Do I put them on and risk wasting time while they possibly kill my wife? Nope. I get my gun. I hear noises in the bathroom. I am scared. I panic. I shoot. I think anybody would've done that, really. Well, rather, it could happen to anybody and it isn't impossible to think that way. People from comfy European safety standards think it's insane to shoot first and to shoot lots. Yeah, well, the reality in SA is that if you don't shoot to kill or at least really do damage you're most likely going to be the one dead and your wife will end up raped and then murdered. Graphic but it's a repeated story in SA.
Why did Oscar not check if his girlfriend was there? Well if it's true that he didn't I can only say that he must have panicked as anybody would. Or just assumed she wasn't there.
Why did he not put on his legs? Why would he have to?
Why do the ballistics (apparently) not match up with the fact he didn't have his prosthetics on? Well, it isn't unthinkable that he shot from above his head, reaching his hands up to take a shot. Why would he do it, I dunno, but it isn't unreasonable.
The point is that at 3am in South Africa when you hear suspicious noises you don't sit down with a pen and paper with some gin and a cigar to plan out your attack. You don't think about calling the police. You only think about saving yourself and your loved ones. All this with a clouded mind too. I don't know if he is guilty or not of pre-meditated murder, God knows and may justice be done, but a lot of the things he did are not unreasonable especially within the context of living in South Africa.
The one thing I do question is that presumably he had a panic button in the room (most middle-class houses and upwards have these in bedrooms) and he didn't press it. Though again, the heat of the moment and panic clouds ones judgement.
Original post by SPB
Coming from someone who was born and raised (for the most part) in South Africa, let me say a few things:
Most South Africans live in fear; which is not to say it is paralyzing fear though for some people it is. Rather, it's a constant vigilance; a heightened sense of suspicion on all that happens around you. You learn to live with it. I have lived in 4 countries and in a community of people from the Americas, Asia, Oceania, Continental Europe and I can say that all of them have been totally in awe at some of my very typical stories which from my point of view are unexciting compared to some of my pals. Almost all my friends have so far been robbed in their homes (or serious attempts) or hijacked (I was fortunate to have neither). One friend was held semi-hostage and was tortured as an 8 year old. South Africa is very dangerous. And what is worse, the police are totally and utterly unreliable. Which is why we have private security companies. Seems a bit insane, but if you can afford it that is how you deal with robberies/criminals. You don't call the police because they will pitch up two hours later wiping the fried chicken off their cheeks, eventually losing all trails and possibly stealing from you. You call your security company who are armed response units that will do their best to track down criminals. I mention this to illustrate that South Africa is not like Europe/England/America. We are brought up to be suspicious. Criminals are ruthless. Living in a gated community means almost nothing. It does add a level of safety, but it only deters some opportunist thieves. Guards are easily bribed - that's all it takes for someone to gain access.
So what would I have thought in that situation? Here is my thought process putting myself in his position (not saying it is what he did since we don't know until his trial starts):
I wake up and hear suspicious noises. Check if wife is okay. She's not there. My assumption is not that she's the one making the noises. My assumption is that somehow they've gotten to her - either secretly in my very bed they've taken her, or perhaps she did in fact get up to go to the loo but they were waiting for her or it coincided with their time of attack. It's 3am so I can hardly think straight about it. I have no legs. Do I put them on and risk wasting time while they possibly kill my wife? Nope. I get my gun. I hear noises in the bathroom. I am scared. I panic. I shoot. I think anybody would've done that, really. Well, rather, it could happen to anybody and it isn't impossible to think that way. People from comfy European safety standards think it's insane to shoot first and to shoot lots. Yeah, well, the reality in SA is that if you don't shoot to kill or at least really do damage you're most likely going to be the one dead and your wife will end up raped and then murdered. Graphic but it's a repeated story in SA.
Why did Oscar not check if his girlfriend was there? Well if it's true that he didn't I can only say that he must have panicked as anybody would. Or just assumed she wasn't there.
Why did he not put on his legs? Why would he have to?
Why do the ballistics (apparently) not match up with the fact he didn't have his prosthetics on? Well, it isn't unthinkable that he shot from above his head, reaching his hands up to take a shot. Why would he do it, I dunno, but it isn't unreasonable.
The point is that at 3am in South Africa when you hear suspicious noises you don't sit down with a pen and paper with some gin and a cigar to plan out your attack. You don't think about calling the police. You only think about saving yourself and your loved ones. All this with a clouded mind too. I don't know if he is guilty or not of pre-meditated murder, God knows and may justice be done, but a lot of the things he did are not unreasonable especially within the context of living in South Africa.
The one thing I do question is that presumably he had a panic button in the room (most middle-class houses and upwards have these in bedrooms) and he didn't press it. Though again, the heat of the moment and panic clouds ones judgement.
Most South Africans live in fear; which is not to say it is paralyzing fear though for some people it is. Rather, it's a constant vigilance; a heightened sense of suspicion on all that happens around you. You learn to live with it. I have lived in 4 countries and in a community of people from the Americas, Asia, Oceania, Continental Europe and I can say that all of them have been totally in awe at some of my very typical stories which from my point of view are unexciting compared to some of my pals. Almost all my friends have so far been robbed in their homes (or serious attempts) or hijacked (I was fortunate to have neither). One friend was held semi-hostage and was tortured as an 8 year old. South Africa is very dangerous. And what is worse, the police are totally and utterly unreliable. Which is why we have private security companies. Seems a bit insane, but if you can afford it that is how you deal with robberies/criminals. You don't call the police because they will pitch up two hours later wiping the fried chicken off their cheeks, eventually losing all trails and possibly stealing from you. You call your security company who are armed response units that will do their best to track down criminals. I mention this to illustrate that South Africa is not like Europe/England/America. We are brought up to be suspicious. Criminals are ruthless. Living in a gated community means almost nothing. It does add a level of safety, but it only deters some opportunist thieves. Guards are easily bribed - that's all it takes for someone to gain access.
So what would I have thought in that situation? Here is my thought process putting myself in his position (not saying it is what he did since we don't know until his trial starts):
I wake up and hear suspicious noises. Check if wife is okay. She's not there. My assumption is not that she's the one making the noises. My assumption is that somehow they've gotten to her - either secretly in my very bed they've taken her, or perhaps she did in fact get up to go to the loo but they were waiting for her or it coincided with their time of attack. It's 3am so I can hardly think straight about it. I have no legs. Do I put them on and risk wasting time while they possibly kill my wife? Nope. I get my gun. I hear noises in the bathroom. I am scared. I panic. I shoot. I think anybody would've done that, really. Well, rather, it could happen to anybody and it isn't impossible to think that way. People from comfy European safety standards think it's insane to shoot first and to shoot lots. Yeah, well, the reality in SA is that if you don't shoot to kill or at least really do damage you're most likely going to be the one dead and your wife will end up raped and then murdered. Graphic but it's a repeated story in SA.
Why did Oscar not check if his girlfriend was there? Well if it's true that he didn't I can only say that he must have panicked as anybody would. Or just assumed she wasn't there.
Why did he not put on his legs? Why would he have to?
Why do the ballistics (apparently) not match up with the fact he didn't have his prosthetics on? Well, it isn't unthinkable that he shot from above his head, reaching his hands up to take a shot. Why would he do it, I dunno, but it isn't unreasonable.
The point is that at 3am in South Africa when you hear suspicious noises you don't sit down with a pen and paper with some gin and a cigar to plan out your attack. You don't think about calling the police. You only think about saving yourself and your loved ones. All this with a clouded mind too. I don't know if he is guilty or not of pre-meditated murder, God knows and may justice be done, but a lot of the things he did are not unreasonable especially within the context of living in South Africa.
The one thing I do question is that presumably he had a panic button in the room (most middle-class houses and upwards have these in bedrooms) and he didn't press it. Though again, the heat of the moment and panic clouds ones judgement.
There are some really interesting insights there, thanks SPB.
Original post by Crumpet1
There are some really interesting insights there, thanks SPB.
I must agree with you. Some really interesting points.
Hi all,
I haven't really been following this case, but has there been any evidence regarding:
- Whether the toilet was flushed or not on police inspection? If no, the could be evidence she might have been in the bathroom on her own accord, rather than in hiding (maybe DNA test to confirm, if possible). If yes, why? And who flushed it?
- What she was wearing? If it was casual clothing, it's doubtful she was asleep in that. If some kind of nightwear, is blood splatter and injuries consistent with being on the toilet, or in some other position in the bathroom.
- To the last point, more generally, is blood splatter and injuries consistent with being on the toilet, or in some other position in the bathroom?
I don't mean to be morbid, but I think the information could help.
I haven't really been following this case, but has there been any evidence regarding:
- Whether the toilet was flushed or not on police inspection? If no, the could be evidence she might have been in the bathroom on her own accord, rather than in hiding (maybe DNA test to confirm, if possible). If yes, why? And who flushed it?
- What she was wearing? If it was casual clothing, it's doubtful she was asleep in that. If some kind of nightwear, is blood splatter and injuries consistent with being on the toilet, or in some other position in the bathroom.
- To the last point, more generally, is blood splatter and injuries consistent with being on the toilet, or in some other position in the bathroom?
I don't mean to be morbid, but I think the information could help.
Original post by Simran Mars Foster
I don't think it was a premeditated murder because he does look like he regrets it a lot it does seem out of character however i fully understand this could be an act but i don't think it is because as far as i'm aware they were perfectly happy. For a more plausible argument, South Africa is known to be one of the most dangerous countries in the world so that is possibly why he had a gun for self defence. The fact that he is disabled also makes him more defenceless. It by no means makes guns permissible even on that ground o but it supports the idea of the killing not to be premeditated but for an intruder. At the end of the day i guess he is a murderer and should be punished to be locked up. It's just a shame that it was someone who was so inspirational that committed such a crime.
All in all not premeditated
All in all not premeditated
He regrets getting caught more like, this guy probably thought he would get away with it... how can he kill his beautiful girlfriend... no sympathy at all..
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Bleached
He regrets getting caught more like, this guy probably thought he would get away with it... how can he kill his beautiful girlfriend... no sympathy at all..
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Oh i agree no sympathy at all! I was arguing my case for the murder being premediated or not at the time. More thiings have come to light since i wrote this and so my opinions have changed.
I don't know the exact definition of 'premeditated' under South African law. Does it really mean 'planned it beforehand' in the way we might assume? I have the idea from what the police said initially that shooting into a small toilet cubicle with someone inside who would be unable to escape the bullets, whether it was your girlfriend or an intruder, meant that you knew you would kill them. Therefore you took the action planning to kill.
Original post by s.dudley
I think he killed her in a fit of rage maybe steroid induced after an argument.
It wouldn't be premeditated then, would it? So one can presume from the fact that the prosecution is still pursuing 'premeditated murder' that even they don't rate your theory.
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