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Illuminati/Conspiracies Real or not?
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Original post by Martyn*
What are you talking about? That's not what conspiracy theorists are actually saying. They are saying that the world is ALREADY conquered by such organisations. And if you look very closely at the world, here in the UK, in Europe, in America, that is exactly what you will see.
Oh I'm so sorry, I thought that their crazy theory was something less crazy than it actually is.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by miser
I don't like the idea that conspiracy theories must be by definition unproven - conspiracies exist (people conspire) and a theory ought not imply particular dubiety over the matter. If a conspiracy theory is proven true, does it at that point stop being a conspiracy theory? Or was it never a conspiracy theory (but only believed to be)? I would prefer a system that considered it to remain a conspiracy theory, because that is a term that best describes it. Simply calling an event a historical truth does nothing to describe the event itself (except that it occured), but to call it a conspiracy theory that is also a historical truth does much.
I've researched a few definitions of conspiracy theory but none imply that it should refer only to speculations. I'd accept that it could simply be referred to as a conspiracy rather than a conspiracy theory, if that did something to remove the ambiguity. It's not an issue close to heart (except insofar as it affects my ability to be understood).
I've researched a few definitions of conspiracy theory but none imply that it should refer only to speculations. I'd accept that it could simply be referred to as a conspiracy rather than a conspiracy theory, if that did something to remove the ambiguity. It's not an issue close to heart (except insofar as it affects my ability to be understood).
I reject that particular analysis because I think that our contemporary understanding of conspiracy theories come with certain judgements. Typically, conspiracy theories tend not to be rooted in any real fact or scientific analysis of events, thus making it extremely unlikely that they will ever be proven true. If you adopt a purely word-for-word interpretation of the term "conspiracy theory" then you will end up holding the position that you do (e.g. a theory that there is a conspiracy behind some event or group). However, I recognise that language is a social construct and that certain terms are loaded and carry preconceived definitions. Most people understand conspiracy theories in the sense that I have described them - as unfalsifiable. A "conspiracy theory" that is proved true would not be a conspiracy theory at all since its truthfulness would have violated the very underlying understanding we have of conspiracy theories.
Original post by Martyn*
But you would say that.
Correct, because I'm a reasonable person who does not take conspiracism seriously and does not believe that there is much point in looking for "hidden forces" behind events when there are more reasonable, scientific explanations for things.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
More conspiracist-historicist nonsense. It's common for conspiracists to believe that they are the Enlightened Ones discovering a hitherto covered-up truth, and that the evil conspiracy will then try to silence them and conceal the truth for unexplained reasons, and that only through listening to said conspiracists can humanity free themselves from the shackles and brainwashing and yadda yadda, etc. etc.
If we knew do you really think we would tell you we knew?
It really does come with the semantics associated with the term - I suspect that you're right that most people would infer a characteristic unfalsifiability to it, but I don't agree that it's intrinsic to the term. Ultimately it is how people use the language that governs issues of semantics and I feel there's at least a flexibility involved here because of the lack of any formal definition giving a distinct judgement. What I care about is being understood, and secondarily to write in a way that is interesting to the reader. Where the term 'conspiracy theory' fits into that is something I'll pay attention to.
Original post by Martyn*
It appears that you don't take it seriously at all, which is surely foolish considering the state of the world. Of course, when everyone else is blind to the world around them, the people who can see will be ridiculed and violently opposed.
Which just goes to prove that conspiracy theories hit a peak in times of crisis. It's no surprise that there is a direct correlation between economic downturns/political crises and belief in conspiracy theories. It's perfectly natural that people seek meaning behind bad events since they'd rather not confront their own failings, instead trying to pass it off onto some foreign group - a scapegoat if you will. One example of this is the rise of paranoia in the US political system (directed against Freemasonry, which they saw as corporate subversion, and the Jesuits, which they saw as religious subversion) and the extent to which this paranoia rises and falls with political crises - the rise of McCarthyism, the John Birch Society, Ron Paul's followers' peculiar brand of anti-government rhetoric, individualism and "who runs the Fed" conspiracies, etc. Ultimately, none of these theories are ever proven correct.
Anyway, these theories do provide me with an opportunity to let out a hearty chuckle at the wilful arrogance and extreme indignation with which conspiracists try and claim that everyone else is "blind" and "brainwashed".
It has more to do and more with free and open access to information and knowledge including the power of social networking, which ultimately means shared knowledge. The paranoia in the US over secret societies is not necessarily a reaction to the state's economic failures, it has to be taken in its wider context. Most conspiracy theories are now global conspiracy theories, so you're attempt to blame every conspiracy theory on American paranoia is ignorant. If we are to accept that you are right and we are wrong, then whenever something major happens in the news, we can just hold our hands up and say that accidents happen. We can forget about world wars, genocide, ethnocide, the atomic bomb, 9/11, the Us giving weapons to Mexican drug cartels, the power of Wall St banks, Goldman Sacchs, the Rothschilds, the Israeli Lobby, the Bilderberg Group, the Commitee of 300, the Club of Rome, the Catholic Church and the paedophile scandals, the murder of JFK, Neo-Marxists in the Labour Party, stealth taxes, Margaret Thatcher,s decision to let Liverpool decline, the two world wars, Vietnam, the Iraq War, the war in Afghanistan, George Bush, Tony Blair, WMDs, Skull and Bones, Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, the Bolshevik Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the storming of the Bastille, and the plot to overthrow Ramses. And you think people are paranoid?
Original post by Martyn*
It has more to do and more with free and open access to information and knowledge including the power of social networking, which ultimately means shared knowledge. The paranoia in the US over secret societies is not necessarily a reaction to the state's economic failures, it has to be taken in its wider context. Most conspiracy theories are now global conspiracy theories, so you're attempt to blame every conspiracy theory on American paranoia is ignorant. If we are to accept that you are right and we are wrong, then whenever something major happens in the news, we can just hold our hands up and say that accidents happen. We can forget about world wars, genocide, ethnocide, the atomic bomb, 9/11, the Us giving weapons to Mexican drug cartels, the power of Wall St banks, Goldman Sacchs, the Rothschilds, the Israeli Lobby, the Bilderberg Group, the Commitee of 300, the Club of Rome, the Catholic Church and the paedophile scandals, the murder of JFK, Neo-Marxists in the Labour Party, stealth taxes, Margaret Thatcher,s decision to let Liverpool decline, the two world wars, Vietnam, the Iraq War, the war in Afghanistan, George Bush, Tony Blair, WMDs, Skull and Bones, Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, the Bolshevik Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the storming of the Bastille, and the plot to overthrow Ramses. And you think people are paranoid?
All of these things have rational explanations behind them and do not necessitate a conspiracy theory in order to understand them.
It's so stupid, none of it is true...
Oh because beyonce, rihanna, jay-z, eminem etc, make triangle signs with their hands they are all evil and they've sold their souls to the illuminati.
Do people really think there is something that controls everyone who is in the public eye?
Who made this crap up?
It annoys me when people try to work out conspiracies etc, when actually the public have no ****ing clue, governments globally can keep whatever they want secret and we will probably never find out unless they want us to.
Posted from TSR Mobile e
Oh because beyonce, rihanna, jay-z, eminem etc, make triangle signs with their hands they are all evil and they've sold their souls to the illuminati.
Do people really think there is something that controls everyone who is in the public eye?
Who made this crap up?
It annoys me when people try to work out conspiracies etc, when actually the public have no ****ing clue, governments globally can keep whatever they want secret and we will probably never find out unless they want us to.
Posted from TSR Mobile e
(edited 11 years ago)
The whole point is that its secret. If you had an agenda, all the money in the world and all the power to control the media, would you really tell anyone? Rich families that control governments exist. Its the logical way to think after all its simply an extrapolation of monetary power at a high level. Your manager at work earns more than you as an employee and this chain of level of earnings go to the top of the business etc. The more money you have, the more control you have over your employees(generally). Its only because we can't imagine anyone controlling the government as they are seen as the only ones we can trust(we cant).
The Illuminati were a group of scientists in the time when the Church had power in England. They opposed the theory that God created the Earth, and using science they could prove their theories, and therefore the Church attempted to get rid of them.
The Illuminati have been shown throughout history as many things. Other organisations have taken the name, most famously the Bavarian Illuminati. The Bavarian Illuminati drew much from Freemasonry, which has also been shown in a bad light through the years but generally is not so.
These days, they are seen as a group of government billionaires, when in fact they do not exist. The New World Order hype can be linked to the Bilderberg Group.
A quick Internet search will tell you this:
“The Bilderberg Group, Bilderberg conference, or Bilderberg Club is an annual, unofficial, invitation-only conference of approximately 120 to 140 guests from North America and Western Europe, most of whom are people of influence. About one-third are from government and politics, and two-thirds from finance, industry, labour, education and communications. Meetings are closed to the public.”
This is, perhaps, one of the reasons so many people are worked up about a New World Order. They believe a range of things, and a few are presented below.
1) The world governments will join together to create a global police state.
2) Top ranking officials and government members are actually Grey/Reptilian aliens in disguise, steering politics in ways that suit their nefarious plots.
3) The New World Order is made up of demon-worshipping billionaires.
4) The members of the New World Order mastermind events and control the music industry to send out the messages they wish to send to the general public, including the young who are impressionable.
It is some form of psychological need, serving just as horror stories (and in fact all stories) and games do: an escape from reality.
The reasons people use media texts (including books) are outlined in Blumer and Katz' Uses and Gratifications Theory, which states the four main reasons we use media texts are:
1. Escape
2. To identify with the characters and situations
3. To interact socially with others
4. Personal identity.
So, the rumours of the modern day Illuminati are due to the need for humans to escape from their day to day lives which they see as boring and dull, and not a top secret military supported New World Order, as some conspiracy theorists would have you believe.
The capitalist ruling class exists, and they are trying to create a society in which people are defined by the things they buy and not the way they think because anything you buy is being bought off them.
The Illuminati could be real but the truth is that it's very, very plausible even though there is no proof and no reason to conclusively believe it.
The Illuminati have been shown throughout history as many things. Other organisations have taken the name, most famously the Bavarian Illuminati. The Bavarian Illuminati drew much from Freemasonry, which has also been shown in a bad light through the years but generally is not so.
These days, they are seen as a group of government billionaires, when in fact they do not exist. The New World Order hype can be linked to the Bilderberg Group.
A quick Internet search will tell you this:
“The Bilderberg Group, Bilderberg conference, or Bilderberg Club is an annual, unofficial, invitation-only conference of approximately 120 to 140 guests from North America and Western Europe, most of whom are people of influence. About one-third are from government and politics, and two-thirds from finance, industry, labour, education and communications. Meetings are closed to the public.”
This is, perhaps, one of the reasons so many people are worked up about a New World Order. They believe a range of things, and a few are presented below.
1) The world governments will join together to create a global police state.
2) Top ranking officials and government members are actually Grey/Reptilian aliens in disguise, steering politics in ways that suit their nefarious plots.
3) The New World Order is made up of demon-worshipping billionaires.
4) The members of the New World Order mastermind events and control the music industry to send out the messages they wish to send to the general public, including the young who are impressionable.
It is some form of psychological need, serving just as horror stories (and in fact all stories) and games do: an escape from reality.
The reasons people use media texts (including books) are outlined in Blumer and Katz' Uses and Gratifications Theory, which states the four main reasons we use media texts are:
1. Escape
2. To identify with the characters and situations
3. To interact socially with others
4. Personal identity.
So, the rumours of the modern day Illuminati are due to the need for humans to escape from their day to day lives which they see as boring and dull, and not a top secret military supported New World Order, as some conspiracy theorists would have you believe.
The capitalist ruling class exists, and they are trying to create a society in which people are defined by the things they buy and not the way they think because anything you buy is being bought off them.
The Illuminati could be real but the truth is that it's very, very plausible even though there is no proof and no reason to conclusively believe it.
Original post by KingV93
This has probably shown up on here before, but I'm new here so I wouldn't know what's been posted. Anyway, this has always been an interest of mine I've read into things, watched documentaries etc. But I've never been sure about the exact stance I have on it. There's a lot of interesting points out there that kinda make me think twice
One issue that bothers me is that the religious stuff seems to be over-exaggerated and I feel that some of the information about it feels like religious scaremongering. What do you think?
One issue that bothers me is that the religious stuff seems to be over-exaggerated and I feel that some of the information about it feels like religious scaremongering. What do you think?
It's nonsense. Although there may have been some kind of silly secret society of rich gentlemen with more time than sense on their hands back in the 18th Century called that, the modern conspiracy theories about it are junk. They are also sometimes very anti-semitic and they are copies of earlier anti-semitic conspiracy theories, sometimes incorporated into the same grand theory. There isn't a shred of real evidence for any of them worth squat.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
It's nonsense. Although there may have been some kind of silly secret society of rich gentlemen with more time than sense on their hands back in the 18th Century called that, the modern conspiracy theories about it are junk. They are also sometimes very anti-semitic and they are copies of earlier anti-semitic conspiracy theories, sometimes incorporated into the same grand theory. There isn't a shred of real evidence for any of them worth squat.
There wouldnt be any evidence. Why would you expect evidence from secret planning that has unlimited funds to keep it secret?
Original post by Cringe
There wouldnt be any evidence. Why would you expect evidence from secret planning that has unlimited funds to keep it secret?
Hmmm. That's a point.
Oh well. Back to the drawing board. I have to go now anyway, it's time for my appointment with the Grand Master of the Most Ancient Lodge of Gastronomers.Original post by RemiMarcelle
It's so stupid, none of it is true...
Oh because beyonce, rihanna, jay-z, eminem etc, make triangle signs with their hands they are all evil and they've sold their souls to the illuminati.
Do people really think there is something that controls everyone who is in the public eye?
Who made this crap up?
It annoys me when people try to work out conspiracies etc, when actually the public have no ****ing clue, governments globally can keep whatever they want secret and we will probably never find out unless they want us to.
Posted from TSR Mobile e
Oh because beyonce, rihanna, jay-z, eminem etc, make triangle signs with their hands they are all evil and they've sold their souls to the illuminati.
Do people really think there is something that controls everyone who is in the public eye?
Who made this crap up?
It annoys me when people try to work out conspiracies etc, when actually the public have no ****ing clue, governments globally can keep whatever they want secret and we will probably never find out unless they want us to.
Posted from TSR Mobile e
You should pay little or no attention to the pseudo-rapture Christians who have jumped on the bandwagon. Of course, they are not evil, but if you think about Jay-z and his artwork, for example, he has amde for himself a business model and lots of money to boot. Jay-z's clothing company is now branded by Iconix who is owned by Herbert Kohl, an alleged Freemason. The connections do not stop there. There is a level of truth I can accept. Obviously, I don't believe in the devil.
The main issue I have with most conspiracy theories is that they often fail to identify any sort of motive for what is supposedly going on, and instead assume that virtually all humans are inherently evil/sadistic/cruel enough that they will want to cause chaos and misery just for kicks.
Original post by Theflyingbarney
The main issue I have with most conspiracy theories is that they often fail to identify any sort of motive for what is supposedly going on, and instead assume that virtually all humans are inherently evil/sadistic/cruel enough that they will want to cause chaos and misery just for kicks.
Very true! However, it's generally specific types of humans like Jews, 'Masons' (code for Jews in many theories) and also religious orders like Catholic orders, that were traditionally somewhat secretive and gave people scope for thinking the worst. That's not to say that in history, some of these orders didn't actually get up to bad things.
Conspiracy theories also distract attention from the real causes of things. The 9/11 conspiracy theories take attention away from the real culprits - Saudi Salafists and people influenced by radical Islamic schools of thought. Conspiracies about things like the Illuminati and the Rothschilds are generally distracting from thinking about who really benefits in capitalist society - they take attention off the bankers and the upper classes and place it onto mystical beings that don't really exist, except in David Icke's fevered brain.
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