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An overview of the response to the new vet school.

As a central issue to the profession, this document:

http://www.avs-uk.org.uk/pdf/AVS_NewVS_Summary_paper_2.pdf?utm_source=Student+eNews+March&utm_campaign=df9ac9cb11-Student_eNews_March3_12_2013&utm_medium=email

May be of interest to people :smile:

Reply 1

kookabura

I was just going to post this :-) interesting read...

I'm inclined to be concerned that the out of the scenarios suggested at the end of that - the most likely one could well be that it will just push working conditions and pay down for everyone. More vet graduates scrabbling for jobs means you can't be picky, you just need a job, so if you won't take it with rubbish pay, someone else will.

But I guess only time will tell....surrey unfortunately seems to be definite now, I'm just really hoping the other rumours of more new vet schools aren't true!

Reply 2

Eevee13

Very interesting indeed, thank you for posting. I agree with Kookaburra, though I hope things won't go that way. As a soon-to-be student my fear is also the lack of lecturers/academics, I had considered it already but it's scary reading it. I am sure I read that when Notts opened for example many lecturers from other schools like Bristol left to teach there. It is scary to think there might not be enough academics to go around, and what impacts that will have on teaching.

Reply 3

SuperCat007

A good read. I'm a little on the fence with this one, whilst I think that one more vet school would open it up to allow more prospective vets a chance at the profession, I'm quite excited about Surrey, I think that any more than this is going to vastly dilute the waters. Look at how many medical schools there are now and at the quality of doctors in hospitals and particularly GP surgeries. I have to say in my time owning animals (particularly the horses), I came across some pretty awful vets, but never EVER have I come across a vet as bad as some of the doctors you have to see in hospitals and at some of the GP surgeries I've had to go to.

Reply 4

Ballum

I would have liked to hear some of the 'punches':

"The panel were spared no punches and the students relished in their freedom from any political constraint that may have inhibited our academic attendees."

This article has some overtones of a veterinary academic author but seems reasonably balanced.

Possibly a big issue is the mass immigration of veterinarians from other EU countries?

Reply 5

SilverstarDJ

Last year the RCVS registered 815 UK graduates (including those who will then move abroad) and they registered 603 non-UK vets to
work in the UK. This shows that there is sufficient demand in the UK vet workforce to encourage foreign graduates to register for jobs in the UK which also means considerable potential to graduate more UK vets without substantial fear of job shortages.

Surely that makes the assumption an employer will always employ a UK graduates over a non-UK grad? If people from non EU companies are always willing to take a lower pay vs UK graduates (because its the only job they can get), then they will still be getting jobs over UK grads or else force UK grads to a lower pay packet as well perhaps?

I am definitely concerned about the future of the profession if more and more new vet schools opening. Perhaps, one day, future vet graduates will not be able to find jobs in the sector they want to work in and worked so hard for at all? I guess this will be no different than other courses who struggle to find a job at the end of it, aside from the vet that vet students finish a much higher debt following 5/6 years of studying.

Reply 6

SuperCat007

From a much broader perspective this country is going down the pan. I think it would be wise to take your (and my... maybe :s-smilie:

) qualification to Australia, China, Japan or even the UAE to an economy that is growing and will hopefully have people with money to spend. I would like to try to go to Kentucky, but America isn't in much better shape...

Like I said above, one more might just open it up to more keen budding vets. But any more than that and it will end up like many of the other medical professions which are oversubscribed, or filled with people who don't really want to do it but they got in because that's where they were pushed and it was relatively easy for that 'type' to get in. If that makes sense...

Reply 7

Ballum

Original post by SuperCat007

From a much broader perspective this country is going down the pan. I think it would be wise to take your (and my... maybe :s-smilie:

) qualification to Australia, China, Japan or even the UAE to an economy that is growing and will hopefully have people with money to spend.

Australian veterinary graduate unemployment has quadrupled in the last 6 years and wages have stagnated for the last 3 decades. It has suffered partly from US overflow (see NY Times article on veterinary problems) and partly from increasing the number of veterinary graduates by 50% over the last 5 years.

China, well with a GDP per capita of around $9k versus the United Kingdom on around $36k it is safe to say that vet wages there are significantly worse.

Japan has one of the biggest restrictions on immigration in the world so good luck getting in.

Reply 8

SuperCat007

Original post by Ballum

I'm not talking about wages though, I'm talking in a broader sense of it appearing to be sensible to move somewhere with a more buoyant economy than here.

Reply 9

Ballum

Original post by SuperCat007

I'm not talking about wages though, I'm talking in a broader sense of it appearing to be sensible to move somewhere with a more buoyant economy than here.

Yes and no. On an individual level it is sensible to move somewhere that has higher demand (wages) for your skills (degree). This is most definitely not China for vets in the UK.

Reply 10

highcream2

Original post by Ballum

Yes and no. On an individual level it is sensible to move somewhere that has higher demand (wages) for your skills (degree). This is most definitely not China for vets in the UK.

Just because there is a demand for places in vet school does not mean there is an under supply of graduates.Vets are poorly paid as it is for what is a horrendously demanding course. Personally I think it's a crazy choice and I still wonder if I should switch to medicine or dentistry. I'm sure there are still orthdontists taking in 250-300k privately. No vet specialist will ever take in anything near that

Reply 11

SilverstarDJ

Original post by highcream2

Personally I think it's a crazy choice and I still wonder if I should switch to medicine or dentistry. I'm sure there are still orthdontists taking in 250-300k privately. No vet specialist will ever take in anything near that

I wouldn't ever switch to medicine or dentistry, to be honest. According to uni stats the starting salary is £25,000 for vets. I wish it was more, but alas, so long as I can afford to live, I will be happy. It is my work and family and friends who mean more to my happiness than earning stupid sums of money, so long as the job I am in doesn't leave me struggling with ordinary household bills etc. This is the average UK salary (I think?) and would be more than enough to pay rent, bills, food, short holidays etc. Obviously you won't have enough to buy a flash car, or to buy a massive house in a posh area on your own, but it's enough to live without struggling to afford food and rent like a lot of people in the UK do! I am happy to pay the price for living in a cheaper house, and not buying expensive items for a job I would enjoy more than anything else. After all, if you work full time, you will spend more time at work than enjoying a massive house. As a veterinary surgeon you have much more variety in the patients you see and you don't have to do lots more training just to do basic surgery. You perform a lot of different surgeries/services that cross disciplines in medicine too, adding to the variety of things a vet can do. Animals always make me smile and it's amazing to work with them every day of your life, and I feel very strongly for advocating for their health and welfare; I want to be the animal's voice as they do not have one of their own. After all, who wants to be looking at people's rotting teeth all day long like dentists do? :s-smilie:

I personally feel that senior (NHS) doctors and dentists are overpaid whilst the NHS is almost collapsing and struggling with waiting lists but that is another debate of its own...

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 12

Ballum

I think vets would be worse off financially than the average because they have spent 5-6 years out of the work force and the uni debt. Add in the weekend and evening work required.
it is interesting that most vets choose the profession due to self needs such as wanting to work with animals and diversity of work. If someone solely wanted to help animals they could get a higher paying job and donate to charity?

Reply 13

SilverstarDJ

Original post by Ballum

It's not just about helping animals; it is about enjoying doing the work you do and also about helping the people involved as well. I don't think I'd be happy in an office job with lots more money than being a vet. Money doesn't buy happiness, though it is stressful/depressing if you've struggling to live and pay even the most basic bills. It is a very varied degree enabling you to go into all sorts of specialities and niches within the profession, both in and out of clinical practise. A vet's job is hard, demanding and can be unsociable in terms of hours, but we're not in it to make loads and loads of money, you've got to be in it because you enjoy it. Having said that, I know plenty of graduate and non-graduates who work full time and earn less than even a starting vets salary, even if they've been able to go into the workforce earlier. We're probably worse off financially compared to some, but certainly not everyone.

This is going slightly off topic from the original thread I've realised....
Of course I feel that if a vets salary would decrease to less than it is today (which is still low compared to all medical professions), whilst commodities are for ever increasing, this would be a real problem for the future vets that graduate. Worst of all, would be an oversupply of vets to the point that, after a long hard 5 year course, you would not be able to find a job as a vet. I don't understand why they cannot cap numbers of vets in the UK.

Reply 14

Ballum

Original post by SilverstarDJ

Money doesn't buy happiness

The interesting thing is that money does buy animals happiness for pets. Animals who have owners without money suffer from under treatment.

Also vet clinics without money aren't able to operate and help animals. It is quite likely that once you graduate there will be income targets to achieve.

Vet students don't choose the job for income reasons. But should they? Higher income practices achieve better welfare results. It is interesting that vet students don't think they will be stressed by poor income but veterinarians find poor incomes one of the most stressful components of the job. Maybe it is only after graduating and realising that money helps animals do people change their minds. Have a look here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20562377

Original post by SilverstarDJ

Worst of all, would be an oversupply of vets to the point that, after a long hard 5 year course, you would not be able to find a job as a vet. I don't understand why they cannot cap numbers of vets in the UK.

Agree

Reply 15

SilverstarDJ

Original post by Ballum

When I said money doesn't buy happiness, then I was more referring to the fact that a very high pay packet won't make a lot of people happier than a doable and liveable income which is lower. Obviously, people struggling financially are not very happy people, but once you get over a certain salary, you happiness isn't proportional to each £ you earn. I think you quoted me a bit out of context there.

I think it is a broad statement to say that owners without money suffer from under treatment, although I am not saying there isn't any truth there, I'm sure is some link, especially for those people who cannot afford to support themselves at all. However it's not necessarily poor = poor welfare for the animals and rich = super good welfare. It's a bit more complicated than that and poor welfare can cross all socioeconomic background. People from very low incomes can go to charities like PDSA for free vet visits, though I realise that not everyone has a local one of those nearby, and this might miss out middle income families who may temporarily be suffering financially but who are not on benefits. My local vets offers a 0% loan for those people who cannot pay up front for an emergency. I've seen people who were not financially well off being told they can pay as much as they can afford each month, and won't be charged for this late payment. However, I've heard of other vet practises refusing to euthanase a horse with an open fracture, as the owner had an outstanding payment; they just let the animals suffer. The owner said she could pay upfront on the day for the euthanasia and pay her debt later, but they still refused. Likewise, I think I saw in a paper that obesity rates in one practise (with mostly clients from low incomes) was very low - could it be that poorer owners do not has as much money to overfeed their pets? I've heard an anecdote from one vet who though it was the richer families who tended to overfeed pets, not sure if this is true or not. Obesity is a huge cause of mortality and morbidity of course. Overall, it seems that a lack of education and negligence is also associated with poorer welfare, not just finances.

Vet students don't choose the job for income reasons. But should they? Higher income practices achieve better welfare results. It is interesting that vet students don't think they will be stressed by poor income but veterinarians find poor incomes one of the most stressful components of the job. Maybe it is only after graduating and realising that money helps animals do people change their minds. Have a look here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20562377

There is a difference between finding it stressful that YOUR OWN SALARY is poor vs treating animals with a LOW INCOME CLIENT and cannot pay for the best possible treatment, but have to settle for cheaper treatments (with lower results) or euthanasia. The two aren't linked, though you make a valid point that the latter can be huge stress on vets and I would not disagree with you on that one. I would also not disagree that, if the situation continue and we over produce vet, then vets will not be able to earn enough for a living, this will harm the profession and individuals greatly. I do think vets are underpaid as it is, but ultimately the salary is enough to live on; any lower and we may lose out on really talented vets in the future or vets will be forced to look for other jobs outside of practise.

This is going slightly off topic again and not anything to do with the new vet school :s-smilie:

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 16

Ballum

I feel there is a relationship between the wage dissatisfaction mentioned in the above article and the unwillingness of owners to spend money on their animals. And half of vets wouldn't do vet if they had their time again:
www.rcvs.org.uk/publications/rcvs-news-extra-october-2010/