Consensual sex vs rape: it's simple
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Original post by jarasta
I know that.
but thats not so obvious in the blog, when he went on to talk about trivial conditions etc..
He made it sound as the conditions are absolute conditions ,regardless of how ridiculous the may be (pirate costume example), if broken, you are automatically a rapist. Hence the joke the guy above made.
Posted from TSR Mobile
but thats not so obvious in the blog, when he went on to talk about trivial conditions etc..
He made it sound as the conditions are absolute conditions ,regardless of how ridiculous the may be (pirate costume example), if broken, you are automatically a rapist. Hence the joke the guy above made.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Even if you think a condition's ridiculous, it's still a condition. People get to set their own T&Cs about who can and can't have sex with them and when/how/why, and those conditions should be respected no matter how bonkers you think they are. If you don't like it, you're free to just not have sex.
Like I said just above, rape has a specific legal meaning, so lots of examples in this thread would be assault rather than rape. That doesn't make them less important though.
Original post by slade p
if he did put it in an place where it was "really really painful" then thats a situation where she could immediately tell him to stop doing that and secondly she can move off from and away from him.
the only thing that would prevent this is if disregarded her wishes and the guy pysically held her down so she couldnt get out of the position.
but if he did stop what he did then theres no issue apart from him attempting to violate the condition.
butttt u did not say that she did not tell him to do that so he was not violating any condition in the first place. so in the end he did nothing wrong apart from unintentionally doing something he didn'nt know she did nt like.
the only thing that would prevent this is if disregarded her wishes and the guy pysically held her down so she couldnt get out of the position.
but if he did stop what he did then theres no issue apart from him attempting to violate the condition.
butttt u did not say that she did not tell him to do that so he was not violating any condition in the first place. so in the end he did nothing wrong apart from unintentionally doing something he didn'nt know she did nt like.
Wow, okay. Right, stop saying 'she', because it was me.
I did move away, it was a fight but I did move away. But it still hurt like an absolute bastard, it was still a massive violation of trust, because that just is a separate thing that you don't just assume will happen with no warning whatsoever.
I think most people know anal is not something you just go for with no previous discussion / warning.
Original post by Ghostly.
Like... seriously, if you were having sex and completely trusting the guy and BOOM without warning he is up there, you'd probably be in so much pain you WOULD move away, it doesn't mean it wasn't okay in the first place.
im not saying its ok, dont put words in my mouth. i said there should not be any legal punishment for it if she did not tell him specifically to not do it. and its only wrong if he knew she wouldnt like but still did it.
Original post by slade p
im not saying its ok, dont put words in my mouth. i said there should not be any legal punishment for it if she did not tell him specifically to not do it. and its only wrong if he knew she wouldnt like but still did it.
By that logic, if you're having sex with a girl one day, and she just shoves a dildo up your bottom halfway through, because you explicitly didn't say that you didn't want a dildo in your bum, then legally she's done nothing wrong
Try having a little empathy, you're far too close to victim blaming for comfort. Lack of consent does not mean it's acceptable, legally or otherwise.
Original post by Aurora.
Wow, okay. Right, stop saying 'she', because it was me.
I did move away, it was a fight but I did move away. But it still hurt like an absolute bastard, it was still a massive violation of trust, because that just is a separate thing that you don't just assume will happen with no warning whatsoever.
I think most people know anal is not something you just go for with no previous discussion / warning.
I did move away, it was a fight but I did move away. But it still hurt like an absolute bastard, it was still a massive violation of trust, because that just is a separate thing that you don't just assume will happen with no warning whatsoever.
I think most people know anal is not something you just go for with no previous discussion / warning.
ok it was you and he attempted to do anal on you and im glad your ok .
yes normally it would be discussed but some people at any specific moment may want to do it. its not like its totally unthinkable that someone could randomly want to do that and not warn you at that moment.
as for trust if you did not tell him to not do it, then how would he know you would be distressed by it?
if you wanted to subsequently leave him then thats ok even though he may not have known you didn't want him to do that, but its not a trust issue assuming he did'nt know u would be distressed by it.
but atleast you know now what to do so it doesnt happen again
I actually think this is something worth thinking about - what requires specific consent and what doesn't.
Like, I would think of oral sex as part of normal sexual culture. If someone had consented to sex with me, I would assume they had also consented to oral sex and would go down on them without asking specific permission. I would do not the same for any variety of anal contact and would always ask for specific permission prior to that (well anal stuff isn't my thing so I would never ask for it but you get the point), because I don't think of anal stuff as part of normal sexual culture.
The question is what is part of normal sexual culture and what isn't. Like, is biting oe scratching someone normal? Even if it's light? Should you be more careful when going with people from different countries who might have a different sexual culture? (I slept with a Moroccan guy once who thought that mouths touching penises was really gross and wrong.)
I think that we need to talk and think about sexual consent a lot more as a culture. I spent a lot of time in school learning about how Fallopian tubes work, but we never spoke about how to establish or withdraw consent...
Like, I would think of oral sex as part of normal sexual culture. If someone had consented to sex with me, I would assume they had also consented to oral sex and would go down on them without asking specific permission. I would do not the same for any variety of anal contact and would always ask for specific permission prior to that (well anal stuff isn't my thing so I would never ask for it but you get the point), because I don't think of anal stuff as part of normal sexual culture.
The question is what is part of normal sexual culture and what isn't. Like, is biting oe scratching someone normal? Even if it's light? Should you be more careful when going with people from different countries who might have a different sexual culture? (I slept with a Moroccan guy once who thought that mouths touching penises was really gross and wrong.)
I think that we need to talk and think about sexual consent a lot more as a culture. I spent a lot of time in school learning about how Fallopian tubes work, but we never spoke about how to establish or withdraw consent...
Original post by edithwashere
By that logic, if you're having sex with a girl one day, and she just shoves a dildo up your bottom halfway through, because you explicitly didn't say that you didn't want a dildo in your bum, then legally she's done nothing wrong
Try having a little empathy, you're far too close to victim blaming for comfort. Lack of consent does not mean it's acceptable, legally or otherwise.
Try having a little empathy, you're far too close to victim blaming for comfort. Lack of consent does not mean it's acceptable, legally or otherwise.
lol yes im not a hypocrit so yes she wouldn't do anything wrong LEGALLY unless it cause me physical harm. the only issue then is if i dint like it enough to leave her or not over it.
and i personally would give more then a little sympathy for genuine victims.
Original post by slade p
ok it was you and he attempted to do anal on you and im glad your ok .
yes normally it would be discussed but some people at any specific moment may want to do it. its not like its totally unthinkable that someone could randomly want to do that and not warn you at that moment.
as for trust if you did not tell him to not do it, then how would he know you would be distressed by it?
if you wanted to subsequently leave him then thats ok even though he may not have known you didn't want him to do that, but its not a trust issue assuming he did'nt know u would be distressed by it.
but atleast you know now what to do so it doesnt happen again
yes normally it would be discussed but some people at any specific moment may want to do it. its not like its totally unthinkable that someone could randomly want to do that and not warn you at that moment.
as for trust if you did not tell him to not do it, then how would he know you would be distressed by it?
if you wanted to subsequently leave him then thats ok even though he may not have known you didn't want him to do that, but its not a trust issue assuming he did'nt know u would be distressed by it.
but atleast you know now what to do so it doesnt happen again
"You know what to do so it doesn't happen again"?
"YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO SO IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN"?
Yeah, just follow this easy how to guide, no one will attempt to rape you ever again.
Original post by wildbluesun
"You know what to do so it doesn't happen again"?
"YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO SO IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN"?
Yeah, just follow this easy how to guide, no one will attempt to rape you ever again.
"YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO SO IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN"?
Yeah, just follow this easy how to guide, no one will attempt to rape you ever again.
what i meant by that is since the partner could do something which you dont expect them to do or you just said nothing on what you dont want them to do, then they should tell their partners on the things which you do not want them to do so theres no problem.
understand now?
Original post by slade p
ok it was you and he attempted to do anal on you and im glad your ok .
yes normally it would be discussed but some people at any specific moment may want to do it. its not like its totally unthinkable that someone could randomly want to do that and not warn you at that moment.
as for trust if you did not tell him to not do it, then how would he know you would be distressed by it?
if you wanted to subsequently leave him then thats ok even though he may not have known you didn't want him to do that, but its not a trust issue assuming he did'nt know u would be distressed by it.
but atleast you know now what to do so it doesnt happen again
yes normally it would be discussed but some people at any specific moment may want to do it. its not like its totally unthinkable that someone could randomly want to do that and not warn you at that moment.
as for trust if you did not tell him to not do it, then how would he know you would be distressed by it?
if you wanted to subsequently leave him then thats ok even though he may not have known you didn't want him to do that, but its not a trust issue assuming he did'nt know u would be distressed by it.
but atleast you know now what to do so it doesnt happen again
Okay I'm not comfortable with this conversation at all tbh, but I do feel like I have to say a couple more things before I hide & cry.
First, he'd asked me multiple times & I'd always said no. Then this one time we're having sex & the next thing I know there's this horrific pressure & burning pain like he's tearing my skin apart.
But tbh I do think that for the vast majority of people, anal is something you just know that you don't do without discussing it with your partner, because it is
[1] known to be painful
[2] the sort of thing that a lot of people say makes them feel degraded
[3] medically dangerous if you're not in a properly relaxed state & you aren't in some way lubricated
Anal is different from just switching up positions.
Original post by slade p
what i meant by that is since the partner could do something which you dont expect them to do or you just said nothing on what you dont want them to do, then they should tell their partners on the things which you do not want them to do so theres no problem.
understand now?
understand now?
Okay then. I understand. Before sleeping with anyone in the future, I will say to them:
"Please don't put your fingers or anything else inside my bum, don't urinate on me, don't rub your hair all over my genitals, don't start plucking out individual hairs from my head, don't slap me across the face and call me a whore, don't start loudly singing "Rape Me" by Nirvana, don't stroke me and whisper 'soon I shall wear your skin as a suit', don't bring out a camera and start filming me, don't text your friend and invite them over to join in, don't grab the glass of water from beside your bed and throw it all over me, don't...etc etc".
If you start from the assumption that someone consents to everything, and that acts must be specifically excluded from the set of stuff consented to - rather than that acts must be specifically added to the set of stuff consented to - you run into all kinds of problems.
Original post by wildbluesun
I actually think this is something worth thinking about - what requires specific consent and what doesn't.
Like, I would think of oral sex as part of normal sexual culture. If someone had consented to sex with me, I would assume they had also consented to oral sex and would go down on them without asking specific permission. I would do not the same for any variety of anal contact and would always ask for specific permission prior to that (well anal stuff isn't my thing so I would never ask for it but you get the point), because I don't think of anal stuff as part of normal sexual culture.
The question is what is part of normal sexual culture and what isn't. Like, is biting oe scratching someone normal? Even if it's light? Should you be more careful when going with people from different countries who might have a different sexual culture? (I slept with a Moroccan guy once who thought that mouths touching penises was really gross and wrong.)
I think that we need to talk and think about sexual consent a lot more as a culture. I spent a lot of time in school learning about how Fallopian tubes work, but we never spoke about how to establish or withdraw consent...
Like, I would think of oral sex as part of normal sexual culture. If someone had consented to sex with me, I would assume they had also consented to oral sex and would go down on them without asking specific permission. I would do not the same for any variety of anal contact and would always ask for specific permission prior to that (well anal stuff isn't my thing so I would never ask for it but you get the point), because I don't think of anal stuff as part of normal sexual culture.
The question is what is part of normal sexual culture and what isn't. Like, is biting oe scratching someone normal? Even if it's light? Should you be more careful when going with people from different countries who might have a different sexual culture? (I slept with a Moroccan guy once who thought that mouths touching penises was really gross and wrong.)
I think that we need to talk and think about sexual consent a lot more as a culture. I spent a lot of time in school learning about how Fallopian tubes work, but we never spoke about how to establish or withdraw consent...
I think a lot of that could be cleared up very simply. If you expressed before it happened that you didn't want oral sex to happen, you haven't given consent. If you didn't say anything and someone started oral sex, you have the right to withdraw consent at any time. In the example you gave, your partner expressed they weren't into it, so you stopped (hopefully), or never started it.
As for initiating something, I think nearly everyone is perfectly capable of reading body language and other signals, however subtle and complex they are. I think far too many people think that a large number of the population have social disorders that make this difficult for them. If a lot of people are doing things their partners aren't comfortable with, I think it's more to do with lack of respect and and a sense entitlement.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by wildbluesun
Okay then. I understand. Before sleeping with anyone in the future, I will say to them:
"Please don't put your fingers or anything else inside my bum, don't urinate on me, don't rub your hair all over my genitals, don't start plucking out individual hairs from my head, don't slap me across the face and call me a whore, don't start loudly singing "Rape Me" by Nirvana, don't stroke me and whisper 'soon I shall wear your skin as a suit', don't bring out a camera and start filming me, don't text your friend and invite them over to join in, don't grab the glass of water from beside your bed and throw it all over me, don't...etc etc".
If you start from the assumption that someone consents to everything, and that acts must be specifically excluded from the set of stuff consented to - rather than that acts must be specifically added to the set of stuff consented to - you run into all kinds of problems.
"Please don't put your fingers or anything else inside my bum, don't urinate on me, don't rub your hair all over my genitals, don't start plucking out individual hairs from my head, don't slap me across the face and call me a whore, don't start loudly singing "Rape Me" by Nirvana, don't stroke me and whisper 'soon I shall wear your skin as a suit', don't bring out a camera and start filming me, don't text your friend and invite them over to join in, don't grab the glass of water from beside your bed and throw it all over me, don't...etc etc".
If you start from the assumption that someone consents to everything, and that acts must be specifically excluded from the set of stuff consented to - rather than that acts must be specifically added to the set of stuff consented to - you run into all kinds of problems.
The henceforth ignored post about "sexual culture" is applicable. Certain acts are expected and nobody has any particularly strong views on them. That is where the consensus between your two viewpoints lies.
Sex is plainly no fun if you have to ask permission to do every single little thing and can't be spontaneous. And as you state this guy's proposal is totally unworkable too.
There is plenty of scope, I'm sure you'll agree, for one partner to do something new as a surprise without explicit consent. This is fun. The difference is that it should be within the context of a trusting relationship and that it should be merely a supporting element of the sex that is changed rather than a base element like which hole is being penetrated.
And there are still culture-bound taboos which would dissuade people from trying any particularly weird surprises.
I think really it depends on whether you are a considerate person who loves their partner or whether you're a douchebag type. The first will be motivated to make a careful judgement on what limits might be acceptable and the second won't care.
Original post by Aurora.
Okay I'm not comfortable with this conversation at all tbh, but I do feel like I have to say a couple more things before I hide & cry.
First, he'd asked me multiple times & I'd always said no. Then this one time we're having sex & the next thing I know there's this horrific pressure & burning pain like he's tearing my skin apart.
But tbh I do think that for the vast majority of people, anal is something you just know that you don't do without discussing it with your partner, because it is
[1] known to be painful
[2] the sort of thing that a lot of people say makes them feel degraded
[3] medically dangerous if you're not in a properly relaxed state & you aren't in some way lubricated
Anal is different from just switching up positions.
First, he'd asked me multiple times & I'd always said no. Then this one time we're having sex & the next thing I know there's this horrific pressure & burning pain like he's tearing my skin apart.
But tbh I do think that for the vast majority of people, anal is something you just know that you don't do without discussing it with your partner, because it is
[1] known to be painful
[2] the sort of thing that a lot of people say makes them feel degraded
[3] medically dangerous if you're not in a properly relaxed state & you aren't in some way lubricated
Anal is different from just switching up positions.
oh ok so he did know you didnt like anal sex. in that case he did abuse ur trust. and yes the points you made on anal sex are right and why people usually discuss it, but obiovusly a few wouldnt care like ur partner who abused ur trust and did something you said no to before.
Original post by takingtime
By your exact definition that would make a woman lying about being on the pill and becoming then pregnant a rapist. It is outside the man's control and if he wouldn't have consented without that knowledge.
I don't want to comment on this case as I think the right ruling was made. But I would say if the definitions of rape that are being thrown out by the girls on this thread are true, it would be far more likely a woman would rape a man by making pre planned actions to lie about taking the pill, than a man ejaculating early in the heat of the moment etc.
To quote my geography teacher talking about methods of contraception, "it would take a better man than me to execute coitus interruptus."
I don't want to comment on this case as I think the right ruling was made. But I would say if the definitions of rape that are being thrown out by the girls on this thread are true, it would be far more likely a woman would rape a man by making pre planned actions to lie about taking the pill, than a man ejaculating early in the heat of the moment etc.
To quote my geography teacher talking about methods of contraception, "it would take a better man than me to execute coitus interruptus."
That's lying, that's not rape. What's rape is to say "I'm going to stop at this point", getting to that point, and then saying LOL JK and carrying on.
Original post by Dragonfly07
+1 because you obviously read my point in the other thread. It's nice to see that people read it even if they don't comment on it.
Thank you. Yeah I read it and you articulated it far better than I
Original post by wildbluesun
Okay then. I understand. Before sleeping with anyone in the future, I will say to them:
"Please don't put your fingers or anything else inside my bum, don't urinate on me, don't rub your hair all over my genitals, don't start plucking out individual hairs from my head, don't slap me across the face and call me a whore, don't start loudly singing "Rape Me" by Nirvana, don't stroke me and whisper 'soon I shall wear your skin as a suit', don't bring out a camera and start filming me, don't text your friend and invite them over to join in, don't grab the glass of water from beside your bed and throw it all over me, don't...etc etc".
If you start from the assumption that someone consents to everything, and that acts must be specifically excluded from the set of stuff consented to - rather than that acts must be specifically added to the set of stuff consented to - you run into all kinds of problems.
"Please don't put your fingers or anything else inside my bum, don't urinate on me, don't rub your hair all over my genitals, don't start plucking out individual hairs from my head, don't slap me across the face and call me a whore, don't start loudly singing "Rape Me" by Nirvana, don't stroke me and whisper 'soon I shall wear your skin as a suit', don't bring out a camera and start filming me, don't text your friend and invite them over to join in, don't grab the glass of water from beside your bed and throw it all over me, don't...etc etc".
If you start from the assumption that someone consents to everything, and that acts must be specifically excluded from the set of stuff consented to - rather than that acts must be specifically added to the set of stuff consented to - you run into all kinds of problems.
ok fair enough even though those examples were extreme in relation to assuming the guy is someone you know.
but ok things which are maybe fetishes or bdsm should be asked by the person who wants to do it. even anal sex which is more of an extra act then a common act so that should be asked of too.
Original post by wildbluesun
Even if you think a condition's ridiculous, it's still a condition. People get to set their own T&Cs about who can and can't have sex with them and when/how/why, and those conditions should be respected no matter how bonkers you think they are. If you don't like it, you're free to just not have sex.
Like I said just above, rape has a specific legal meaning, so lots of examples in this thread would be assault rather than rape. That doesn't make them less important though.
Like I said just above, rape has a specific legal meaning, so lots of examples in this thread would be assault rather than rape. That doesn't make them less important though.
I'm talking about the conditions you can't control specifically in this case. One being for example, although unlikely,' you have my consent so long as you don't sweat'.
Or from the blog.'you have my consent only if you dress up as a pirate'. That's sounda reasonable you can control that so that's fine.
But suppose a married one of the partners of a married couple has that as a condition..But the other partner, for one reason it another can't dress up as a pirate. But the still try their luck and try to seduce the receiving party. But stops when their attempts are rejected.
Can we then accuse the seducer of attempted rape? Simply because they were not dressed as a pirate.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by scrotgrot
The henceforth ignored post about "sexual culture" is applicable. Certain acts are expected and nobody has any particularly strong views on them. That is where the consensus between your two viewpoints lies.
Sex is plainly no fun if you have to ask permission to do every single little thing and can't be spontaneous. And as you state this guy's proposal is totally unworkable too.
There is plenty of scope, I'm sure you'll agree, for one partner to do something new as a surprise without explicit consent. This is fun. The difference is that it should be within the context of a trusting relationship and that it should be merely a supporting element of the sex that is changed rather than a base element like which hole is being penetrated.
And there are still culture-bound taboos which would dissuade people from trying any particularly weird surprises.
I think really it depends on whether you are a considerate person who loves their partner or whether you're a douchebag type. The first will be motivated to make a careful judgement on what limits might be acceptable and the second won't care.
Sex is plainly no fun if you have to ask permission to do every single little thing and can't be spontaneous. And as you state this guy's proposal is totally unworkable too.
There is plenty of scope, I'm sure you'll agree, for one partner to do something new as a surprise without explicit consent. This is fun. The difference is that it should be within the context of a trusting relationship and that it should be merely a supporting element of the sex that is changed rather than a base element like which hole is being penetrated.
And there are still culture-bound taboos which would dissuade people from trying any particularly weird surprises.
I think really it depends on whether you are a considerate person who loves their partner or whether you're a douchebag type. The first will be motivated to make a careful judgement on what limits might be acceptable and the second won't care.
Yes, sex is no fun if you ask permission for EVERYTHING. I think for instance the whole concept of "enthusiastic consent" (giving clear, unequivocal, loud "I want this" to every act and every escalation of intimacy starting at kissing and working up) is unworkable. ("Can I touch your right breast?" "Yes". "Can I touch your left breast?" "Yes." "Can I kiss your breast?" "For god's sakes just get on with it.")
I think your point about supporting elements rather than base elements is interesting and valid. Even as I type that I'm trying to differentiate supporting elements from base elements and finding it difficult though. :P
I'm aware of two conflicting impulses inside my brain, one being "things must be added to the pool of allowed acts, not removed; consenting to one act does not mean consent to any other act" and the other that "consenting to some specific acts implies consent to other specific acts". Which are directly contradictory, and I'm still trying to work out how to resolve them when I sleep with people. I tend to assume that someone consenting to penetrative sex is also consenting to being kissed, licked and touched on any part of their body including their genitals, but I have encountered exceptions before. (This gets even more complicated when you get into kink, which is a part of my sex life - is someone who consents to being cropped also consenting to be caned? Is someone who consents to being bitten on the shoulder also consenting to being bitten on the neck? I know a vegan who loves rubber floggers, but would never consent to a suede or leather one. Etc etc...)
My current "policy" (right word?) is, when it's with someone I don't know, doing things slowly, so if they're uncomfortable with something they have plenty of opportunity to object, and if they appear uncomfortable in any way (through movement or tone of voice or funny noises), stopping whatever it is and verbally checking in with them to see if they're okay. That seems to be working so far. I find that if I check in once, people tend to realise that I'm going to listen to them and become much more vocal about what they do/don't want. Which makes the whole thing better for everyone.
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