The Student Room Group

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Reply 20
exactly, medicine on the cheap!
Think about that for a second.

1 lecturer or at least 20 individual tutors? Cheap, I think not.
Reply 21
Solid_L
Traditional - Get the core knowledge but don't learn communication skills, or how to apply it the same.


Not sure I quite agree with that, we do very little PBL but in our clinical module we get to practice lots of communication skill first with each other in role play and then with patients later on. For some really difficult situations they also get actors in to help us practice so I don't think that my communication skills have been negatively effected by not doing a PBL course.
Renal
Think about that for a second.

1 lecturer or at least 20 individual tutors? Cheap, I think not.

1 experienced leader in their field who requires research grants to attract them to the university and maintain them there in a teaching position, or 20 nobodies who have just graduated with a 3rd from luton in 'bio stuff'

its about more than just the salary.
i mean, just look at who it is writing your textbooks...
randdom
Not sure I quite agree with that, we do very little PBL but in our clinical module we get to practice lots of communication skill first with each other in role play and then with patients later on. For some really difficult situations they also get actors in to help us practice so I don't think that my communication skills have been negatively effected by not doing a PBL course.

mmm. pbl isn't anything to do with the communication aspect, although it does often teach better how to do presentations.

that said, my experience of people who were PBLers when working with them in a presentation is they know all the rubbish that USED to get them marks, but makes for a rather dull presentation.
which of course winds me up no end.

don't like teamwork on presentations...
Reply 24
Robot Chicken
1 experienced leader in their field who requires research grants to attract them to the university and maintain them there in a teaching position, or 20 nobodies who have just graduated with a 3rd from luton in 'bio stuff'

its about more than just the salary.
i mean, just look at who it is writing your textbooks...


PBL your end sounds horrid then.

Most of our PBL tutors are very well known peeps, who like to do it to keep contact with undergrad preclinical teaching - Prof Nick Lemoine, Prof Parveen Kumar, Prof Foster, Prof Domizio, Prof Tom Macdonald, Prof Underwood, etc...
Reply 25
randdom
Not sure I quite agree with that, we do very little PBL but in our clinical module we get to practice lots of communication skill first with each other in role play and then with patients later on. For some really difficult situations they also get actors in to help us practice so I don't think that my communication skills have been negatively effected by not doing a PBL course.


If you get the same communication skills whats the problem with doing a traditional course? Surely you get the best of all worlds. If PBL gives the same communication skills, costs the same (if not more) according to Renal and basically you have to teach yourself the course - which could be wrong information, why do PBL when traditional meets, and if not betters the skills?

I'm not saying traditional is better than PBL; I'm just wondering what advantages there are to doing PBL according to the arguements in this thread.
Reply 26
Solid_L
basically you have to teach yourself the course - which could be wrong information,
I do want to know where this perception comes from. Why do you assume that if you do PBL properly, using a number of sensible sources - that you'd get wrong information?

In comparrison, being taught by world class lecturers, do you think that what they teach you is 'right' information. Many times I've been taught by people at the head of their research field who will add in their own research which isn't necessarilly validaded and accepted by the commuity.
Reply 27
Renal
I do want to know where this perception comes from. Why do you assume that if you do PBL properly, using a number of sensible sources - that you'd get wrong information?


I heard it from people on PBL courses. Their words were wrong information (surely you know that medical text books can contradict each other), too far in depth, or not in depth enough. It is possible to go very very deep into a field of medicine you are studying, but how much information you need for the problem in question is down to opinion and judgement... something not always easy to get right. Which means you could go off on a tangent.

Whereas at least with a traditional course you know exactly what information you need to know.
Reply 28
Mmm...

Whereas at least with a traditional course you know exactly what information you need to know.
I think that's wrong. After three months pretty much anyone can put together a decent set of objectives for a PBL. But if you can't think independantly I could see how it would be a problem...
Fluffy
PBL your end sounds horrid then.

Most of our PBL tutors are very well known peeps, who like to do it to keep contact with undergrad preclinical teaching - Prof Nick Lemoine, Prof Parveen Kumar, Prof Foster, Prof Domizio, Prof Tom Macdonald, Prof Underwood, etc...

kumar does pbly stuff?
what a waste of her time and talents.
Reply 30
Robot Chicken
kumar does pbly stuff?
what a waste of her time and talents.


That's not how she sees it... She doesn't have to do, like all the others she chooses to...

Unless you think medical education across the board is beneath her :rolleyes:
Fluffy
That's not how she sees it... She doesn't have to do, like all the others she chooses to...

Unless you think medical education across the board is beneath her :rolleyes:

pbl is.
she's one of the top medical educators in the country for cheese's sake.

obviously i'm incredibly hostile to pbl...
Reply 32
Robot Chicken
kumar does pbly stuff?
what a waste of her time and talents.
God, imagine a consultant having to teach... :rolleyes:
Reply 33
Robot Chicken
she's one of the top medical educators in the country for cheese's sake.
How the hell do you know? Beacause she co-edited a book? :rolleyes:
Reply 34
Robot Chicken


obviously i'm incredibly hostile to pbl...


I'm not :smile:
Renal
How the hell do you know? Beacause she co-edited a book? :rolleyes:

yeh, not really wise to be rolling eyes unless you're damned sure you're right.

She co-edited a book. The book to be precise.
to you thats nothing.
fair enough.

Shes a professor...of clinical medical education.
She was director of professional development within the royal college of physicians
she was a director in NICE, and now is chairperson of the medicines commission.

And she was awarded a CBE accredited to her work in the nhs and in the training of docotrs of tomorrow.

So yeh, i think it's safe to say she is one of the top medical educators in the country you sarcastic ****.
Reply 36
Robot Chicken
yeh, not really wise to be rolling eyes unless you're damned sure you're right.
Mmm, I've only been taught by her a couple of times, met her a couple of times too, wouldn't say I was in a position to make judgements like that yet.

So, one of the most senior and experienced medical educators in the country, as far as you're concerned, works with PBL?

Does this mean that it's not crap anymore?
Renal
Mmm, I've only been taught by her a couple of times, met her a couple of times too, wouldn't say I was in a position to make judgements like that yet.

You and umpteen thousand others
I've trotted to a couple of lectures where she was guest speaker, and was sandwiched between her and prof Coombs (of coombs test fame) and opposite Roger carpenter at a meal once. very clever and quite good banter as profs go as i recall.
Renal

So, one of the most senior and experienced medical educators in the country, as far as you're concerned, works with PBL?

PBL is a top down initiative. the select group who make the criteria for the league tables decide its the best method, and then med schools have to implement it or forfeit their positon in the tables. for that reason traditionally taught courses bar edinburgh are doing increasingly badly in the medic league tables. schools ge points simply for being mroe weight towards pbl and self directed learning.
Renal

Does this mean that it's not crap anymore?

nope, still a big pile of poo. I pay the congestion charge, but it doesn't mean i agree with it.

again with the sarcasm ey?
At my University, a lot of PBL tutors are voluntary. Their reward is development of their own skills, contacts within the University, and an extra line on their CV :smile:
Reply 39
I'd rather lectures personally. The PBL I've seen (which admittedly is probably about one session!) involved skating over concepts we didn't really understand and basically tried to teach us to run before we could walk.