Troops to teachers

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My best teacher in secondary school was an ex-military. She always had the most well behaved classes and if I get that A in maths it will be down to her.

Reply 61

llys

Original post by TenOfThem

What difference does that make?

If you have, you may know that you don't need degree-level knowledge to teach someone how to solve a quadratic equation.

If you haven't, you should go and ask your maths teachers how often they draw on degree-level knowledge to teach pupils up to GCSE Maths. The answer in most cases will probably be "never".

Come to think of it, you could just ask your maths department how many of their teachers do have a degree in maths, I'd be quite curious to know.

Reply 62

llys

Original post by Snowy041

I think people should look at the broad range of people and not simply stereotype everyone!!

Welcome to TSR! :h:

Reply 63

username878045

Original post by llys

Did you not see the other person's post? TenofThem is a maths teacher herself, I think she knows quite a bit about teaching :tongue:

Reply 64

TenOfThem

Original post by llys

Oh I know the proportion of maths teachers who do and do not have degrees in maths

In the 30 years that I have been teaching Secondary School maths I have often been the only person with a Maths Degree in the Department

The issue is not wether they draw on degree level maths when teaching - it is their understanding that maths at all levels needs to be taught in a way that enables students to move beyond that level

Those that come into the profession without a degree (and, even more importantly those that come with gap between university and teaching) tend to be far more narrow in their teaching

There is a big difference in teaching knowledge and teaching understanding

Let us take the example that you gave - quadratic equations - in most Schemes of Work the elements of quadratic equations are split into different units so, unless a teacher is thinking about the potential for students to move to A level and beyond, they tend to teach a series of disjointed methods and rules rather than an understanding of how the methods fit together. In particular, the relevance of the algebraic methods to graph work, and they tend to ignore the importance of b^2-4ac. There is a regularly seen mis-conception on this site amongst students regarding the square root of a number -- this misconception is taught to them by maths teachers who have too low a ceiling on their own understanding

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 65

llys

Original post by PythianLegume

Did you not see the other person's post? TenofThem is a maths teacher herself, I think she knows quite a bit about teaching :tongue:

I did see it. I think my post still stands. Lots of maths teachers don't have a degree in maths and manage just fine. Of course, lots of other do have a degree in maths but will hardly ever use it to teach up to GCSE. (A-Level is different but I doubt ex-military would go straight into teaching A-Level.) The government recognises this and this is why they offer training to people who want to teach maths without a degree in maths, in the form of subject knowledge enhancement courses.

Reply 66

Ham22

I think they should have ex-army class room assistants to instill order, but not teachers (unless they are fully qualified).

Reply 67

Snowy041

Original post by Ham22

I think they should have ex-army class room assistants to instill order, but not teachers (unless they are fully qualified).

Would this work? Or would this simply undermine the authority of the teacher?

Being a soldier looking to start School Direct, I would be interested to see the views of teachers.

Reply 68

FrogInABog

Original post by Thatstudentdude

By someone who's wielded a gun? All they're going to do is glorify the army and get the 'boys at the back' who don't work or are seen as 'under-achievers' to join the army.

Honestly, what else can an ex-officer inspire a child to do? They don't have the passion or subject-knowledge to really enthuse about something or for this enthusiasm about a subject to be admired by the children.

Sounds rather like you've been watching/reading too much All Quiet on the Western Front! As someone who has grown up around military and ex-military family and friends, I can assure you that they're not all on some sort of massive recruitment drive, as you seem to suggest. On the contrary; I have been frequently advised not to join. The glorifying of the military is much more of a civilian past-time, and it's a far greater sacred cow to the tabloids than it is to actual members.

I also have to take issue with the idea that ex-officers 'don't have the passion or subject-knowledge' to teach a subject properly. I have spent the last to years slogging through A-Level History with a teacher who makes countless factual errors, and is largely uninspiring. On the other hand, discussing the same topics with my dad, who was in the Army for twenty years, and has no History qualifications beyond A-Level, I found him to be far better informed, and far more interesting. This is not an isolated case. At my last school, I had two maths teachers, one ex-Army, the other not; the former was immeasurably better at teaching, explaining, controlling the class, and keeping us attentive.

I am not suggesting that being in the military will automatically make you a good school teacher; that obviously isn't true. But at the same time, this idea that they're all rifle-wielding psychopaths with single-figure IQs, bent on pushing their students into service, and with an inability to inspire and motivate, is utter bilge.

Reply 69

Snowy041

Original post by llys

Welcome to TSR! :h:

Why, thank you :smile:

Reply 70

llys

Original post by TenOfThem

I do agree with you on this, but I really do not think it is fair to assume that ex-military trainees will have a worse understanding of this than non-ex-military trainees without a maths degree. If we do accept the latter like we do currently, or have until very recently, I think it's unfair to hold it against the former. And if SKEs are considered to work well enough for non-ex-military, they should also work for ex-military.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 71

TenOfThem

Original post by llys

I do not think that ex-military will be any less qualified than other people coming from alternative careers

That is not what I said ... your statement suggested that higher level subject knowledge was not needed ... my points to you referenced that

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 72

UncreativeJ

Scary teachers :colondollar:

Reply 73

llys

Original post by TenOfThem

I do not think that ex-miliatary will be any less qualified than other people coming from alternative careers

I agree.

That is not what I said ... your statement suggested that higher level subject knowledge was not needed ... my points to you referenced that

I see. I was just referring to the topic of the thread.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 74

UncreativeJ

Original post by Blueray2

No. This is why I ****ing hate Michael Gove.
Firstly he takes away january resits for pupils
Then Wants to scrap gcses and replace them with I levels - what is he, sponsored by Apple?
Then he complains about educational standards.....

If you bring in people with no damn teaching qualifications pupils will FAIL.

You can't teach me subjects correctly and fully eg maths properly, if you don't have the damn qualification in the first place.

Spoiler

Get rid of Gove and reverse all his proposals asap I say.

I wouldn't have a problem with it, if they had the qualifications.

Nice sig! (:

Reply 75

Ham22

Original post by Snowy041

Would this work? Or would this simply undermine the authority of the teacher?

Being a soldier looking to start School Direct, I would be interested to see the views of teachers.

Well if they have no authority anyway,and the children are out of control, their presence can't make the situation any worse.

Reply 76

TenOfThem

Original post by llys

I see. I was just referring to the topic of the thread.

You made the point that people do not need a degree or degree level maths to teach maths at GCSE

You also suggested that people overestimate the need for higher subject knowledge

You re-inforced this by suggesting that an A Level student could tutor GCSE

You further re-inforced this by suggesting that teachers did not use their higher level skills

You then gave a particular example

All of that was counter-acted by my point that these lacks do not lead to good teaching ... your own example being a very good example of this

You then suggested that your argument is re-inforced by the fact that the government believe a short SKE is adequate to make a maths teacher

My point is this

Ex-Miliatary or not ... people come into teaching with your point of view ... a bit of knowledge is enough

Then they do not teach well

Hence the state of Maths Education in this country at the moment

Reply 77

Drewski

Original post by Thatstudentdude

Gross stereotype.

You don't think an ex-Pilot would show an individual exactly how and why good mental arithmetic was invaluable to their job?
Or that the ex-Navy boat pilot would show how a good understanding of geography-based subjects kept him alive?

Your mistake - and it is an extraordinarily and mind-boggling common one on this site - is to assume that every single person in the Armed Forces is an infantry foot soldier with more criminal records than qualifications. That's patently not true. I was in the RAF, I have an Engineering degree. Almost every single one of my close friends who are still in the Forces is university-educated, some with BScs, some BEngs and more than a few Masters as well as PhDs.
Stop treating us all like we're only suitable for burger flipping jobs in McDonalds.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 78

llys

Original post by TenOfThem

You made the point that people do not need a degree or degree level maths to teach maths at GCSE

You also suggested that people overestimate the need for higher subject knowledge

You re-inforced this by suggesting that an A Level student could tutor GCSE

Yes, I did all of this, in response to people in the thread who disagreed with the troops to teachers proposal because these ex-military trainees would lack degree-level subject knowledge, which a lot of people presumed to be important for teaching. My point was that to teach up to GCSE you don't need to draw on degree-level subject knowledge, as evidenced by many maths teachers around the country who do not have maths degrees but were still accepted for training, and many of which do a good job. Therefore, my response to these people (not you) is that it is unfair to hold lack of a subject-specific degree against ex-military trainees, if we don't even hold it against non-ex-military trainees.

You further re-inforced this by suggesting that teachers did not use their higher level skills

No, I didn't say anything like that. In fact I do think teachers need a lot of higher level communication and interpersonal skills. Just not degree-level subject knowledge.

All of that was counter-acted by my point that these lacks do not lead to good teaching ...

You also admitted that

(1) "The issue is not wether they draw on degree level maths when teaching - it is their understanding that maths at all levels needs to be taught in a way that enables students to move beyond that level"
which suggested to me that you agree that degree-level subject knowledge is not necessary to teach GCSE. Perhaps I misunderstood?

(2) over 30 years of teaching, most maths teachers in your departments did not have a degree in maths. Do you think all these colleagues were crap maths teachers or what are you trying to say now?

You then suggested that your argument is re-inforced by the fact that the government believe a short SKE is adequate to make a maths teacher

Yes. Up to GCSE. Beyond that I don't think it holds.

--------

My point is this

Ex-Miliatary or not ... people come into teaching with [the] view ... a bit of knowledge is enough

Then they do not teach well

Hence the state of Maths Education in this country at the moment

TenOfThem, I accept your opinion, and I don't have any problem with it as such. In fact, if you have the choice to train someone with degree-level knowledge vs someone without degree-level knowledge, and both candidates have equal interpersonal and communication skills, I would also go with the one with degree-level knowledge. Not because I think they will draw on it while teaching GCSE (like you know, I don't think so), but because I expect someone who studied the subject to degree level to have more passion for it, which I think is good for pupils and colleagues. And, like you point out, they will also have better transitional understanding, which I agree with you is a good thing.

But we don't have this choice of trainees currently. So the government has accepted that degree-level subject knowledge is not necessary. (I have not heard any outrage from teacher training colleges against this, so I assume they accept it too.) So we accept trainees without maths degrees. So my whole point (to people in this thread) is that this perfectly applies to ex-military trainees without maths degrees as well. That's really all. And no, I know that doesn't counter your opinion that in an ideal world, there would only be trainees who do have a degree in the subject! But to me that's a different topic, as we do not live in an ideal world, so we can't treat ex-military trainee hopefuls as if we did.