Theoretical Physics vs Physics and Mathematics
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Original post by jazzynutter
I was at the Manchester general open day on the 22nd - other than attending the physics talk/tour and asking questions at the physics stand, I spent most of my time devouring bacon butties in the SU 
A departmental open day would have been more useful, but I was in B'ham the previous day and I live so far away that I couldn't miss out on the opportunity to tie both days into one journey! It sounds like this interview/applicant day would give me a lot more insight into the structure of the course, perhaps for deciding which offers to keep/reject though rather than to inspire me to pick up a particular course.
A departmental open day would have been more useful, but I was in B'ham the previous day and I live so far away that I couldn't miss out on the opportunity to tie both days into one journey! It sounds like this interview/applicant day would give me a lot more insight into the structure of the course, perhaps for deciding which offers to keep/reject though rather than to inspire me to pick up a particular course. That's the idea. Lots of places have a post-application visit/interview day - as much as anything it's to make sure you see the uni you've applied to at least once
If I'm honest, I do quite like proofs 
Due to its name, however, I get the feeling that TPAM is not a standard joint maths & physics course, and I certainly haven't seen anything like it anywhere else (although this doesn't necessarily make it better!).
Due to its name, however, I get the feeling that TPAM is not a standard joint maths & physics course, and I certainly haven't seen anything like it anywhere else (although this doesn't necessarily make it better!). Yeah, I never saw anything like it either when I was applying - and it does seem a little odd that they run both TPAM and TP - but if they didn't get people applying for both they'd get withdrawn, so there must be a need for it.
I didn't originally include Y3&4 as they are mainly options columns, but here they are:
I'm not sure how many options I'd get to choose, but I could hazard a guess that each one listed is 10 credits..?
I'm not sure how many options I'd get to choose, but I could hazard a guess that each one listed is 10 credits..?
It's usually 120 credits per year, and most modules will be 10 or 20 credits - by the looks of the course structure, I think most of them will be 10 credits.
4th year projects etc may (probably will) be more (20 credits)
As for Y1&2, if I break them down into my opinion....
Semester 1: TPAM and TPnl seem highly similar, and that computational module seems like it could be fairly useful. The only thing I'd seem to be missing out on with TPAM is the MOMD, which is only available for the first year anyway and surely can't be worth more than 10 credits.
Semester 1: TPAM and TPnl seem highly similar, and that computational module seems like it could be fairly useful. The only thing I'd seem to be missing out on with TPAM is the MOMD, which is only available for the first year anyway and surely can't be worth more than 10 credits.
Sounds like it'll be a fairly introductory astronomy course, which will probably be interesting but won't make a massive difference to your physics education - you could always just go to the lectures for the lulz if your timetable allows it and you really want to go.
Semester 2: I doubt I'd take any of those orange blocks on the left anyway - other than Chaos and Non-linear Systems, which is compulsory for TPAM and for some reason is missing from TPnl 
Again, the compulsory maths modules for TPAM seem useful rather than completely separate core material and in fact - just as you pointed out! - simply cover some of the earlier modules but from a maths point of view (e.g. Classical Mechanics and Relativity has clearly been replaced by Elementary Mechanics).
Again, the compulsory maths modules for TPAM seem useful rather than completely separate core material and in fact - just as you pointed out! - simply cover some of the earlier modules but from a maths point of view (e.g. Classical Mechanics and Relativity has clearly been replaced by Elementary Mechanics). The particle physics one may be interesting, but it'll probably be largely qualitiative stuff that you could learn in your own time. I'm not sure what their Chaos course would be like for a first year module, I had one in third year (but it felt pretty easy in all honesty - it could probably have been done in first/second year...) Oddly enough, TP nl have their own course on dynamical systems which would cover much the same ground - not sure why there's two different modules in honesty.
Semester 3: I don't believe I can see a single significant difference between TPAM and TPnl here, other than the additional maths (which is listed as applied maths anyway) and the previous idea of module 'replacement'.
Me neither....
Semester 4: Taking TPAM over TPnl would mean that I wouldn't get the option module of Structure in the Universe, which sounds kinda interesting. However, I am getting more maths in - and I intend to work/study/have experience in Europe, where I know that their physics is far more mathematically based.
Yep. At Manchester, they made those going on third years in Europe/US pretty much do Theoretical Physics modules in second year to prepare them for the greater mathematical rigour. The more mathematically prepared you are, the better.
Back to my original question about joint P&M. Would you say that the following is about right in regards to that?
...And if this is at all correct, what would be the significance of this? Would it be the same as your original post in that I will simply have core modules from each discipline without them really interlinking? As you might be able to tell, I am leaning towards TPAM at B'ham - but this doesn't mean that I am leaning to P&M over TP everywhere else (including Manchester!) due to this concern about my content 'meeting in the middle'. What I really want the maths modules to do is to enhance and reinforce my understanding of the physics modules, and not to feel so much like a separate subject.
...And if this is at all correct, what would be the significance of this? Would it be the same as your original post in that I will simply have core modules from each discipline without them really interlinking? As you might be able to tell, I am leaning towards TPAM at B'ham - but this doesn't mean that I am leaning to P&M over TP everywhere else (including Manchester!) due to this concern about my content 'meeting in the middle'. What I really want the maths modules to do is to enhance and reinforce my understanding of the physics modules, and not to feel so much like a separate subject.
I think your diagram is pretty much spot on. Whether or not you'd be able to take any of the specialist theoretical options in a joint maths/phys degree would come down to timetabling, amongst other things. What you would probably get the option to do with joint M&P is study some of the more abstract pure maths that would be core for mathematicians.
If you want your maths to help your physics, you're probably better off doing something like Theoretical Physics or TPAM over a 'normal' maths and physics degree. However, some maths departments will offer theoretical physics options to its students (again, it depends what the mathematicians at the specific uni are into) - so you'd have to investigate that with specific unis, so you could end up getting your theoretical physics stuff in that way.
As far as Birmingham goes if you want maths modules by physicists for physicists, you probably want TP (where most of them will likely be 'methods' modules to prepare you for physics itself) - if you want applied maths then you want TPAM.
Original post by -G-a-v-
Yep. At Manchester, they made those going on third years in Europe/US pretty much do Theoretical Physics modules in second year to prepare them for the greater mathematical rigour. The more mathematically prepared you are, the better.
Yep. At Manchester, they made those going on third years in Europe/US pretty much do Theoretical Physics modules in second year to prepare them for the greater mathematical rigour. The more mathematically prepared you are, the better.
You have hit another one of my pesky questions regarding all of these options! I would love to take my third year at a Spanish university, but at Manchester this appears to clash horrifically with my wish to read theoretical physics (at ICL this is not a problem, though - as long as I have the mathematical ability to study theoretical modules in Spain, I have been told that I can tailor my own degree to give myself a course in "Theoretical Physics with a Year in Europe" and that there are usually 5-10 students per year who wish to do so). How theoretical could I potentially make my degree if I did wish to study in Europe, or would it be more advisable to give presidence to my subject matter and stay at Manchester for four years?
Original post by -G-a-v-
I think your diagram is pretty much spot on. Whether or not you'd be able to take any of the specialist theoretical options in a joint maths/phys degree would come down to timetabling, amongst other things. What you would probably get the option to do with joint M&P is study some of the more abstract pure maths that would be core for mathematicians.
If you want your maths to help your physics, you're probably better off doing something like Theoretical Physics or TPAM over a 'normal' maths and physics degree. However, some maths departments will offer theoretical physics options to its students (again, it depends what the mathematicians at the specific uni are into) - so you'd have to investigate that with specific unis, so you could end up getting your theoretical physics stuff in that way.
As far as Birmingham goes if you want maths modules by physicists for physicists, you probably want TP (where most of them will likely be 'methods' modules to prepare you for physics itself) - if you want applied maths then you want TPAM.
I think your diagram is pretty much spot on. Whether or not you'd be able to take any of the specialist theoretical options in a joint maths/phys degree would come down to timetabling, amongst other things. What you would probably get the option to do with joint M&P is study some of the more abstract pure maths that would be core for mathematicians.
If you want your maths to help your physics, you're probably better off doing something like Theoretical Physics or TPAM over a 'normal' maths and physics degree. However, some maths departments will offer theoretical physics options to its students (again, it depends what the mathematicians at the specific uni are into) - so you'd have to investigate that with specific unis, so you could end up getting your theoretical physics stuff in that way.
As far as Birmingham goes if you want maths modules by physicists for physicists, you probably want TP (where most of them will likely be 'methods' modules to prepare you for physics itself) - if you want applied maths then you want TPAM.
I think that after much thought, I am swinging towards TPAM at B'ham only and then TP over P&M everywhere else. This is because although I do want slightly more mathematical content than most, I don't want to sacrifice theoretical content to make room for core maths options that will not directly compliment my physics content. Thank you so much for putting so much time into helping me to come to this decision, you've been fantastic!!!!
I did a straight Physics degree, but am about to begin a PhD in Theoretical Physics and know people who have done these sorts of degrees so I have some insight.
First off, don't do a Maths and Physics joint honours unless the Maths department has a Mathematical or Theoretical Physics research group!
These groups are sometimes in the Maths department and sometimes in the Physics department, but you want to go to a university that as a strong theory group. Ideally check the course lists to make sure you can take courses on General Relativity and Quantum Field Theory in the 4th year, as these are the core courses if you want to do theoretical research.
Examples of good degrees:
Maths at Cambridge (Choose all the applied/physics modules)
Natsci at Cambridge (Switch to maths for the 4th year)
Physics with Theoretical Physics at Imperial
Physics at Oxford (Choose all the theory options)
Maths and Physics at Durham
Theoretical Physics at Durham
Mathematical Physics at Edinburgh
Theoretical Physics at Edinburgh
Maths and Physics at King's
Mathematical Physics at Nottingham
I'd ignore Birmingham and Bristol as they don't have strong theory groups.
First off, don't do a Maths and Physics joint honours unless the Maths department has a Mathematical or Theoretical Physics research group!
These groups are sometimes in the Maths department and sometimes in the Physics department, but you want to go to a university that as a strong theory group. Ideally check the course lists to make sure you can take courses on General Relativity and Quantum Field Theory in the 4th year, as these are the core courses if you want to do theoretical research.
Examples of good degrees:
Maths at Cambridge (Choose all the applied/physics modules)
Natsci at Cambridge (Switch to maths for the 4th year)
Physics with Theoretical Physics at Imperial
Physics at Oxford (Choose all the theory options)
Maths and Physics at Durham
Theoretical Physics at Durham
Mathematical Physics at Edinburgh
Theoretical Physics at Edinburgh
Maths and Physics at King's
Mathematical Physics at Nottingham
I'd ignore Birmingham and Bristol as they don't have strong theory groups.
Original post by jazzynutter
You have hit another one of my pesky questions regarding all of these options! I would love to take my third year at a Spanish university, but at Manchester this appears to clash horrifically with my wish to read theoretical physics (at ICL this is not a problem, though - as long as I have the mathematical ability to study theoretical modules in Spain, I have been told that I can tailor my own degree to give myself a course in "Theoretical Physics with a Year in Europe" and that there are usually 5-10 students per year who wish to do so). How theoretical could I potentially make my degree if I did wish to study in Europe, or would it be more advisable to give presidence to my subject matter and stay at Manchester for four years?
1st year Physics with a year in Europe is core physics (incl. full lab) and you take a language module or two.
2nd year you still do language modules, but I'm pretty sure they will make you do Theoretical options (specifically Lagrangian Dynamics and Complex Variables and Integral Transforms). There also used to be a 'Vector Spaces for QM' module in semester 2 of 2nd year but looking at the website that looks to have disappeared - I took that module in its first year of teaching and it was particularly hard and ultimately meant I switched to 'normal' physics in 3rd year
- probably best to wait until they update the course handbook for next academic year and see what the structure is like. I think you would do lab in one semester, but not both.3rd year - I've no idea what goes on in Spain apart from them it just generally being more mathematical, I would be surprised if you were not able to choose theoretical physics courses while you're over there though if your maths is up to it. You'd probably have to do some extra prep on your QM to cope with the more mathematical treatment if they don't intend to replace that Vector Spaces course. Manchester would definitely help you with this though.
4th year - you may have to do some lab and you'd have your MPhys project (which you could make theoretical if you wanted) - beyond that, you'd be able to choose theory modules as long as you'd covered the pre-requisites in Spain.
I think that after much thought, I am swinging towards TPAM at B'ham only and then TP over P&M everywhere else. This is because although I do want slightly more mathematical content than most, I don't want to sacrifice theoretical content to make room for core maths options that will not directly compliment my physics content. Thank you so much for putting so much time into helping me to come to this decision, you've been fantastic!!!!
That sounds like the right way to go. You're very welcome, best of luck in your applications. If you need any more help let me know
Original post by Gauge/Gravity
I did a straight Physics degree, but am about to begin a PhD in Theoretical Physics and know people who have done these sorts of degrees so I have some insight.
First off, don't do a Maths and Physics joint honours unless the Maths department has a Mathematical or Theoretical Physics research group!
These groups are sometimes in the Maths department and sometimes in the Physics department, but you want to go to a university that as a strong theory group. Ideally check the course lists to make sure you can take courses on General Relativity and Quantum Field Theory in the 4th year, as these are the core courses if you want to do theoretical research.
Examples of good degrees:
Maths at Cambridge (Choose all the applied/physics modules)
Natsci at Cambridge (Switch to maths for the 4th year)
Physics with Theoretical Physics at Imperial
Physics at Oxford (Choose all the theory options)
Maths and Physics at Durham
Theoretical Physics at Durham
Mathematical Physics at Edinburgh
Theoretical Physics at Edinburgh
Maths and Physics at King's
Mathematical Physics at Nottingham
I'd ignore Birmingham and Bristol as they don't have strong theory groups.
First off, don't do a Maths and Physics joint honours unless the Maths department has a Mathematical or Theoretical Physics research group!
These groups are sometimes in the Maths department and sometimes in the Physics department, but you want to go to a university that as a strong theory group. Ideally check the course lists to make sure you can take courses on General Relativity and Quantum Field Theory in the 4th year, as these are the core courses if you want to do theoretical research.
Examples of good degrees:
Maths at Cambridge (Choose all the applied/physics modules)
Natsci at Cambridge (Switch to maths for the 4th year)
Physics with Theoretical Physics at Imperial
Physics at Oxford (Choose all the theory options)
Maths and Physics at Durham
Theoretical Physics at Durham
Mathematical Physics at Edinburgh
Theoretical Physics at Edinburgh
Maths and Physics at King's
Mathematical Physics at Nottingham
I'd ignore Birmingham and Bristol as they don't have strong theory groups.
After the open days, the courses in bold are currently my top two favourites anyway
I was only discussing Birmingham so much as it was the only university that I had extensive options tables for (and I think is currently my third choice simply as Manchester is harder to get into than everywhere else), so I could analyse the exact differences between each course more easily. I doubt I'd stay at the same uni for seven years anyway if pursuing a PhD, and surely that is where the theoretical research issue matters the most..? What would you personally recommend as a suitable replacement for Birmingham, then? Although Durham is a fantastic uni, I am put off by how small the city is as I am definitely a city person. As for the others, I can't say that I've looked into them..... how would you recommend looking into insurance options? Because right now I'm averaging a requirement of A*AA without anywhere with lower requirements really rocking my boat
(This is the reason that I mentioned Bristol - it asks for AAA but doesn't particularly excite me...)
EDIT:
Original post by Gauge/Gravity
Mathematical Physics at Nottingham
I just visited the Nottingham website and noticed that they run both a physics with theoretical physics and a mathematical physics course - what would be the main difference between these, and what made you list the mathematical option over the theoretical one in your 'good courses' list?
EDIT #2:
Oh, these two options exist at Edinburgh also! Again, what would be the main difference between the two if they are both physics courses with more of a mathematical emphasis?
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by -G-a-v-
1st year Physics with a year in Europe is core physics (incl. full lab) and you take a language module or two.
2nd year you still do language modules, but I'm pretty sure they will make you do Theoretical options (specifically Lagrangian Dynamics and Complex Variables and Integral Transforms). There also used to be a 'Vector Spaces for QM' module in semester 2 of 2nd year but looking at the website that looks to have disappeared - I took that module in its first year of teaching and it was particularly hard and ultimately meant I switched to 'normal' physics in 3rd year - probably best to wait until they update the course handbook for next academic year and see what the structure is like. I think you would do lab in one semester, but not both.
3rd year - I've no idea what goes on in Spain apart from them it just generally being more mathematical, I would be surprised if you were not able to choose theoretical physics courses while you're over there though if your maths is up to it. You'd probably have to do some extra prep on your QM to cope with the more mathematical treatment if they don't intend to replace that Vector Spaces course. Manchester would definitely help you with this though.
4th year - you may have to do some lab and you'd have your MPhys project (which you could make theoretical if you wanted) - beyond that, you'd be able to choose theory modules as long as you'd covered the pre-requisites in Spain.
That sounds like the right way to go. You're very welcome, best of luck in your applications. If you need any more help let me know
2nd year you still do language modules, but I'm pretty sure they will make you do Theoretical options (specifically Lagrangian Dynamics and Complex Variables and Integral Transforms). There also used to be a 'Vector Spaces for QM' module in semester 2 of 2nd year but looking at the website that looks to have disappeared - I took that module in its first year of teaching and it was particularly hard and ultimately meant I switched to 'normal' physics in 3rd year
- probably best to wait until they update the course handbook for next academic year and see what the structure is like. I think you would do lab in one semester, but not both.3rd year - I've no idea what goes on in Spain apart from them it just generally being more mathematical, I would be surprised if you were not able to choose theoretical physics courses while you're over there though if your maths is up to it. You'd probably have to do some extra prep on your QM to cope with the more mathematical treatment if they don't intend to replace that Vector Spaces course. Manchester would definitely help you with this though.
4th year - you may have to do some lab and you'd have your MPhys project (which you could make theoretical if you wanted) - beyond that, you'd be able to choose theory modules as long as you'd covered the pre-requisites in Spain.
That sounds like the right way to go. You're very welcome, best of luck in your applications. If you need any more help let me know
Seeing as you're speaking with experience from Manchester, I am going to assume that what I have put in bold applies for there in particular - and it sounds good! I shall follow your advice about waiting until they've updated the handbook though, especially for the theoretical content that would be available to me in the 4th year if I decided to go down the European route
The only thing I can do for now is 1) hope that my AS results will be as good as my January module ones and 2) do as much research as possible over the next few weeks! I'll be sure to get in touch if I need your help again
Original post by jazzynutter
After the open days, the courses in bold are currently my top two favourites anyway
After the open days, the courses in bold are currently my top two favourites anyway
It's worth noting that it's much easier to get in to an Oxford PhD in theoretical physics after a Cambridge undergrad degree than the other way round.
Original post by jazzynutter
I doubt I'd stay at the same uni for seven years anyway if pursuing a PhD, and surely that is where the theoretical research issue matters the most..?
I doubt I'd stay at the same uni for seven years anyway if pursuing a PhD, and surely that is where the theoretical research issue matters the most..?
No, this is vital. You will do your fourth year project and possibly summer internships with academics in your department. These will be the people that write your references for PhD applications. You will be competing for places with people who've done projects that are very relevant to the PhD and may even already have extensive research experience. If you have no experience of what theoretical research is like then potential supervisors will worry that you aren't adequately prepared for a theoretical PhD.
Original post by jazzynutter
What would you personally recommend as a suitable replacement for Birmingham, then?...
...how would you recommend looking into insurance options?
What would you personally recommend as a suitable replacement for Birmingham, then?
......how would you recommend looking into insurance options?
Here is a list of departments that have theory groups: http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~ppzphy7/webpages/links/
Original post by jazzynutter
I just visited the Nottingham website and noticed that they run both a physics with theoretical physics and a mathematical physics course - what would be the main difference between these, and what made you list the mathematical option over the theoretical one in your 'good courses' list?
I just visited the Nottingham website and noticed that they run both a physics with theoretical physics and a mathematical physics course - what would be the main difference between these, and what made you list the mathematical option over the theoretical one in your 'good courses' list?
Nottingham has a mathematical physics group in the maths department and a theoretical physics group in the physics department. The theoretical course is delivered entirely by the physics department, the mathematical course is delivered jointly.
The mathematical course looked a lot better as the 4th year had a Quantum Field Theory course and more General Relativity courses.
Original post by jazzynutter
Oh, these two options exist at Edinburgh also! Again, what would be the main difference between the two if they are both physics courses with more of a mathematical emphasis?
Oh, these two options exist at Edinburgh also! Again, what would be the main difference between the two if they are both physics courses with more of a mathematical emphasis?
The two options exist at Edinburgh for the same reason, but the theoretical course looks better than the Nottingham one. These two really do like quite similar in the physics content so it may be down to how much you like maths. (If you have any inkling that you might want to go into String Theory then the more maths the better. It may be a good idea to avoid String Theory these days though!)
Key points:
Most Physicists are experimentalists and their bias towards what is useful influences course. Most Physics departments underestimate the amount of mathematics a theorist needs to know, so it's useful to be in a department with lots of theorists.
Getting a PhD place to do Theoretical Physics (especially the "glamorous" stuff like Particle Physics, Cosmology, String Theory and Relativity; getting into Condensed Matter theory may be easier) is very hard. You will need at least a First to have a chance. At most of my interviews I was the only candidate that wasn't from Oxbridge or Imperial.
Original post by Gauge/Gravity
It's worth noting that it's much easier to get in to an Oxford PhD in theoretical physics after a Cambridge undergrad degree than the other way round.
No, this is vital. You will do your fourth year project and possibly summer internships with academics in your department. These will be the people that write your references for PhD applications. You will be competing for places with people who've done projects that are very relevant to the PhD and may even already have extensive research experience. If you have no experience of what theoretical research is like then potential supervisors will worry that you aren't adequately prepared for a theoretical PhD.
Here is a list of departments that have theory groups: http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~ppzphy7/webpages/links/
Nottingham has a mathematical physics group in the maths department and a theoretical physics group in the physics department. The theoretical course is delivered entirely by the physics department, the mathematical course is delivered jointly.
The mathematical course looked a lot better as the 4th year had a Quantum Field Theory course and more General Relativity courses.
The two options exist at Edinburgh for the same reason, but the theoretical course looks better than the Nottingham one. These two really do like quite similar in the physics content so it may be down to how much you like maths. (If you have any inkling that you might want to go into String Theory then the more maths the better. It may be a good idea to avoid String Theory these days though!)
Key points:
Most Physicists are experimentalists and their bias towards what is useful influences course. Most Physics departments underestimate the amount of mathematics a theorist needs to know, so it's useful to be in a department with lots of theorists.
Getting a PhD place to do Theoretical Physics (especially the "glamorous" stuff like Particle Physics, Cosmology, String Theory and Relativity; getting into Condensed Matter theory may be easier) is very hard. You will need at least a First to have a chance. At most of my interviews I was the only candidate that wasn't from Oxbridge or Imperial.
No, this is vital. You will do your fourth year project and possibly summer internships with academics in your department. These will be the people that write your references for PhD applications. You will be competing for places with people who've done projects that are very relevant to the PhD and may even already have extensive research experience. If you have no experience of what theoretical research is like then potential supervisors will worry that you aren't adequately prepared for a theoretical PhD.
Here is a list of departments that have theory groups: http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~ppzphy7/webpages/links/
Nottingham has a mathematical physics group in the maths department and a theoretical physics group in the physics department. The theoretical course is delivered entirely by the physics department, the mathematical course is delivered jointly.
The mathematical course looked a lot better as the 4th year had a Quantum Field Theory course and more General Relativity courses.
The two options exist at Edinburgh for the same reason, but the theoretical course looks better than the Nottingham one. These two really do like quite similar in the physics content so it may be down to how much you like maths. (If you have any inkling that you might want to go into String Theory then the more maths the better. It may be a good idea to avoid String Theory these days though!)
Key points:
Most Physicists are experimentalists and their bias towards what is useful influences course. Most Physics departments underestimate the amount of mathematics a theorist needs to know, so it's useful to be in a department with lots of theorists.
Getting a PhD place to do Theoretical Physics (especially the "glamorous" stuff like Particle Physics, Cosmology, String Theory and Relativity; getting into Condensed Matter theory may be easier) is very hard. You will need at least a First to have a chance. At most of my interviews I was the only candidate that wasn't from Oxbridge or Imperial.
Surely you mean you were the only UK candidate not from Oxbridge or Imperial.
Original post by lotsofq
Surely you mean you were the only UK candidate not from Oxbridge or Imperial.
Non UK candidates weren't interviewed at the same time as us. (STFC studentships only fully fund home students...)
Original post by jazzynutter
EDIT #2:
Oh, these two options exist at Edinburgh also! Again, what would be the main difference between the two if they are both physics courses with more of a mathematical emphasis?
EDIT #2:
Oh, these two options exist at Edinburgh also! Again, what would be the main difference between the two if they are both physics courses with more of a mathematical emphasis?
What I was told when I went to a Edinburgh open day was that the main reason both exist was that before (pre 2012-2013) their theoretical degree was the mathematical physics one but they were having a few students every year who started on straight physics but at the end of 1st or 2nd year wanted to switch to do theoretical physics but they hadn't done the necessary maths modules for 3rd year of mathematical physics. This led them to create their theoretical physics degree where normal physics students can transfer onto up to the end of 2nd year and vice-versa.
I don't really know much about any of the other universities as I only looked at the Scottish ones where theoretical physics is limited to Edinburgh, Glasgow, St Andrews and Heriot Watt. Strathclyde and Aberdeen do some kinds of theory research but as Guage/Gravity talks about random maths/physics joint honours degrees not being good enough preparation for theory research.
Mathematical Physics: http://www.drps.ed.ac.uk/13-14/dpt/utmapym.htm
Theoretical Physics: http://www.drps.ed.ac.uk/13-14/dpt/utthephmphys.htm
Original post by Gauge/Gravity
It's worth noting that it's much easier to get in to an Oxford PhD in theoretical physics after a Cambridge undergrad degree than the other way round.
Please elaborate on this..!!?!Original post by Gauge/Gravity
No, this is vital. You will do your fourth year project and possibly summer internships with academics in your department. These will be the people that write your references for PhD applications. You will be competing for places with people who've done projects that are very relevant to the PhD and may even already have extensive research experience. If you have no experience of what theoretical research is like then potential supervisors will worry that you aren't adequately prepared for a theoretical PhD.
Here is a list of departments that have theory groups: http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~ppzphy7/webpages/links/
Here is a list of departments that have theory groups: http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~ppzphy7/webpages/links/
Waah, and I thought that having to look ahead to my undergraduate course was far enough at my age!!
I'll definitely have to look into the small print more!!!!!Hm, this link is for particle theory groups only, and the homepage says that the group only concerns particles, strings and modified gravity. Although the universities listed must have strong theoretical departments to be conducting this sort of research, would there not be others with interests in other theoretical areas?
Original post by Gauge/Gravity
Nottingham has a mathematical physics group in the maths department and a theoretical physics group in the physics department. The theoretical course is delivered entirely by the physics department, the mathematical course is delivered jointly.
The mathematical course looked a lot better as the 4th year had a Quantum Field Theory course and more General Relativity courses.
The two options exist at Edinburgh for the same reason, but the theoretical course looks better than the Nottingham one. These two really do like quite similar in the physics content so it may be down to how much you like maths. (If you have any inkling that you might want to go into String Theory then the more maths the better. It may be a good idea to avoid String Theory these days though!)
Nottingham has a mathematical physics group in the maths department and a theoretical physics group in the physics department. The theoretical course is delivered entirely by the physics department, the mathematical course is delivered jointly.
The mathematical course looked a lot better as the 4th year had a Quantum Field Theory course and more General Relativity courses.
The two options exist at Edinburgh for the same reason, but the theoretical course looks better than the Nottingham one. These two really do like quite similar in the physics content so it may be down to how much you like maths. (If you have any inkling that you might want to go into String Theory then the more maths the better. It may be a good idea to avoid String Theory these days though!)
Well, naturally I do love maths and this is why I am looking into the more mathematical "with"s and "and"s in the first place
I think it all depends on the small print for each individual university - at some universities the more mathsy options seem more appropriate, and at some the more physicsy ones do. It's all down to those pesky, not-so-user-friendly module tables! A joint perspective in terms of joint departments does sound interesting, though.Original post by Gauge/Gravity
Key points:
Most Physicists are experimentalists and their bias towards what is useful influences course. Most Physics departments underestimate the amount of mathematics a theorist needs to know, so it's useful to be in a department with lots of theorists.
Getting a PhD place to do Theoretical Physics (especially the "glamorous" stuff like Particle Physics, Cosmology, String Theory and Relativity; getting into Condensed Matter theory may be easier) is very hard. You will need at least a First to have a chance. At most of my interviews I was the only candidate that wasn't from Oxbridge or Imperial.
Key points:
Most Physicists are experimentalists and their bias towards what is useful influences course. Most Physics departments underestimate the amount of mathematics a theorist needs to know, so it's useful to be in a department with lots of theorists.
Getting a PhD place to do Theoretical Physics (especially the "glamorous" stuff like Particle Physics, Cosmology, String Theory and Relativity; getting into Condensed Matter theory may be easier) is very hard. You will need at least a First to have a chance. At most of my interviews I was the only candidate that wasn't from Oxbridge or Imperial.
Until rather recently I thought that it was only A Level Physics that was more experimental, rather than Physics everywhere! It's nice to have my realisation confirmed :'} For example, when choosing my Oxford college(s) I have been looking into the research areas that the tutors are involved in. I suppose I'll just be chained to Google, my printer and a highlighter throughout the summer holidays...
Well I'm hoping to land a place at Oxford or ICL anyway, but what are my chances of being successful in securing a PhD place if I end up at one of my insurance options in terms of A Level grades as these would obviously be less prestigious? (I wish less emphasis was placed on prestige, sigh)
Original post by qno2
What I was told when I went to a Edinburgh open day was that the main reason both exist was that before (pre 2012-2013) their theoretical degree was the mathematical physics one but they were having a few students every year who started on straight physics but at the end of 1st or 2nd year wanted to switch to do theoretical physics but they hadn't done the necessary maths modules for 3rd year of mathematical physics. This led them to create their theoretical physics degree where normal physics students can transfer onto up to the end of 2nd year and vice-versa.
I don't really know much about any of the other universities as I only looked at the Scottish ones where theoretical physics is limited to Edinburgh, Glasgow, St Andrews and Heriot Watt. Strathclyde and Aberdeen do some kinds of theory research but as Guage/Gravity talks about random maths/physics joint honours degrees not being good enough preparation for theory research.
Mathematical Physics: http://www.drps.ed.ac.uk/13-14/dpt/utmapym.htm
Theoretical Physics: http://www.drps.ed.ac.uk/13-14/dpt/utthephmphys.htm
I don't really know much about any of the other universities as I only looked at the Scottish ones where theoretical physics is limited to Edinburgh, Glasgow, St Andrews and Heriot Watt. Strathclyde and Aberdeen do some kinds of theory research but as Guage/Gravity talks about random maths/physics joint honours degrees not being good enough preparation for theory research.
Mathematical Physics: http://www.drps.ed.ac.uk/13-14/dpt/utmapym.htm
Theoretical Physics: http://www.drps.ed.ac.uk/13-14/dpt/utthephmphys.htm
I wasn't able to go to Edinburgh's open day due to the sheer expense of traveling there (I'm from the South West
), but I do happen to have a few of their booklets and prospectuses lying round despite never really looking at them - and I think I have been swayed! If I stay swayed then I shall save up for their open day on the 2nd of September. If it is the case that mathematical physics is the more mathematically challenging/vigorous of the courses as you are implying, I suppose that I should look into that one I have looked at St Andrews, but I am finding it hard to gauge how good their Theoretical Physics course would be. The only thing that I have picked up from their somewhat clumsy website is that the required A-Level grades are only AAA, which I suppose could make a useful insurance option. Do you/ does anyone have any knowledge on St Andrews that would benefit me?
Also, a point on Scottish universities in general - it says in the Edinburgh prospectus that an MPhys "entails a further year of in-depth study but is not equivalent to postgraduate masters. [...] The difference in name is historical." What is all this about? Does this mean that I'd have to go elsewhere to get a 'real' Masters?
Original post by jazzynutter
I wasn't able to go to Edinburgh's open day due to the sheer expense of traveling there (I'm from the South West ), but I do happen to have a few of their booklets and prospectuses lying round despite never really looking at them - and I think I have been swayed! If I stay swayed then I shall save up for their open day on the 2nd of September. If it is the case that mathematical physics is the more mathematically challenging/vigorous of the courses as you are implying, I suppose that I should look into that one
I have looked at St Andrews, but I am finding it hard to gauge how good their Theoretical Physics course would be. The only thing that I have picked up from their somewhat clumsy website is that the required A-Level grades are only AAA, which I suppose could make a useful insurance option. Do you/ does anyone have any knowledge on St Andrews that would benefit me?
Also, a point on Scottish universities in general - it says in the Edinburgh prospectus that an MPhys "entails a further year of in-depth study but is not equivalent to postgraduate masters. [...] The difference in name is historical." What is all this about? Does this mean that I'd have to go elsewhere to get a 'real' Masters?
), but I do happen to have a few of their booklets and prospectuses lying round despite never really looking at them - and I think I have been swayed! If I stay swayed then I shall save up for their open day on the 2nd of September. If it is the case that mathematical physics is the more mathematically challenging/vigorous of the courses as you are implying, I suppose that I should look into that one I have looked at St Andrews, but I am finding it hard to gauge how good their Theoretical Physics course would be. The only thing that I have picked up from their somewhat clumsy website is that the required A-Level grades are only AAA, which I suppose could make a useful insurance option. Do you/ does anyone have any knowledge on St Andrews that would benefit me?
Also, a point on Scottish universities in general - it says in the Edinburgh prospectus that an MPhys "entails a further year of in-depth study but is not equivalent to postgraduate masters. [...] The difference in name is historical." What is all this about? Does this mean that I'd have to go elsewhere to get a 'real' Masters?
I don't know anyone doing Physics at St Andrews mainly because their admissions system is massively unfair to Scottish and EU applicants (Compared to the likes of Edinburgh who ask for the same/very similar grades ect) so I don't think I can comment much. A MPhys from a Scottish university is the same as a MPhys from any other UK university its just that our university system takes 1 year extra. (BSc takes 4 years, MPhys takes 5 ect) This is why you can enter at year 2 to save yourself time and money. The "historical" comment might be referring to the fact that Arts/Humanities undergraduate degree in Scotland from the Ancient universities(Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, St Andrews, Dundee and Heriot Watt to an extent) give out MA undergraduate degrees but they are the same as an English BA. Not sure why it would be their though since this is not the case for science degrees. As far as I know, MPhys degrees and all undergraduate masters have 120 credits in their final year rather than 180. Take a look at one of Edinburgh's physics MSc's on the DRPS to see the difference.
You could try and raid though the information available for current students at St Andrews here but their is an awful lot of stuff there:http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/physics/staff_students/index.php
If you need any more help, I'll try and be useful
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Gauge/Gravity
Non UK candidates weren't interviewed at the same time as us. (STFC studentships only fully fund home students...)
How are non-UK students defined? Is it all those that attended unis abroad or those that are not British passport holders?
Original post by qno2
I don't know anyone doing Physics at St Andrews mainly because their admissions system is massively unfair to Scottish and EU applicants (Compared to the likes of Edinburgh who ask for the same/very similar grades ect) so I don't think I can comment much. A MPhys from a Scottish university is the same as a MPhys from any other UK university its just that our university system takes 1 year extra. (BSc takes 4 years, MPhys takes 5 ect) This is why you can enter at year 2 to save yourself time and money. The "historical" comment might be referring to the fact that Arts/Humanities undergraduate degree in Scotland from the Ancient universities(Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, St Andrews, Dundee and Heriot Watt to an extent) give out MA undergraduate degrees but they are the same as an English BA. Not sure why it would be their though since this is not the case for science degrees. As far as I know, MPhys degrees and all undergraduate masters have 120 credits in their final year rather than 180. Take a look at one of Edinburgh's physics MSc's on the DRPS to see the difference.
You could try and raid though the information available for current students at St Andrews here but their is an awful lot of stuff there:http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/physics/staff_students/index.php
If you need any more help, I'll try and be useful
You could try and raid though the information available for current students at St Andrews here but their is an awful lot of stuff there:http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/physics/staff_students/index.php
If you need any more help, I'll try and be useful
I was only asking about St Andrews because it was mentioned in your previous post - Edinburgh looks better, and I doubt I'd want to apply to more than one Scottish university anyway
I knew that Scottish universities take a year longer because of the broad first year etc. Edinburgh offer both an MPhys and a one-year MSc programme, although if I remember rightly these are different things regardless of location in the UK (An MSc "tops up" a Masters, right?) Maybe the Edinburgh booklet muddled up the arts and sciences sections with regards to the nomenclature :'}
http://www.ph.ed.ac.uk/studying/undergraduate/our-degrees
http://www.ph.ed.ac.uk/msc-theoretical-mathematical-physics
Original post by jazzynutter
...
You'll probably be interested in this:
http://www-thphys.physics.ox.ac.uk/MMathPhys/MMathPhysweb/index.html
The reason they're introducing this course is the answer to your earlier question to Guage/Gravity.
(Original post by Gauge/Gravity)
It's worth noting that it's much easier to get in to an Oxford PhD in theoretical physics after a Cambridge undergrad degree than the other way round.
Please elaborate on this..!!?!(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by thebadgeroverlord
You'll probably be interested in this:
http://www-thphys.physics.ox.ac.uk/MMathPhys/MMathPhysweb/index.html
The reason they're introducing this course is the answer to your earlier question to Guage/Gravity.
(Original post by Gauge/Gravity)
It's worth noting that it's much easier to get in to an Oxford PhD in theoretical physics after a Cambridge undergrad degree than the other way round.
Please elaborate on this..!!?!
http://www-thphys.physics.ox.ac.uk/MMathPhys/MMathPhysweb/index.html
The reason they're introducing this course is the answer to your earlier question to Guage/Gravity.
(Original post by Gauge/Gravity)
It's worth noting that it's much easier to get in to an Oxford PhD in theoretical physics after a Cambridge undergrad degree than the other way round.
Please elaborate on this..!!?!Wow, this looks really interesting! Thank you!!
Original post by Caitlan
They are very similar courses hence people often find it hard to distinguish between the two. However, I would choose theoretical on the grounds that It is more respected. Also, you go further into scientific concepts. A joint honours often means you miss out on some very interesting topics
you dont know what ur talking about
YOU HAVEN`T EVEN DONE A LEVEL,plsse dont comment when ur only knowledge is from the big bang theory
(edited 10 years ago)
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