Feminists, do you really want equality?

Just another thread, because I'm really curious about this subject. Feminists claim to want equality but it seems feminists and I have differing opinions on what equality is.

I support equality of opportunity while feminists seem to support equality of outcome. Even though many women have made career decisions based on their desired lifestyle, leading to an underrepresentation of women in politics and other time consuming careers, feminists are moaning about how there are more men than women in these areas. But I don't get it. What's the problem with their gender? Why is it wrong for men to be politicians if more men happen to be the best for the job? And there's no proof that the few amount of women in politics and business boardrooms is down to sexism or gender roles.

Despite there being many logical explanations for why men earn more than women overall, such as women taking time off work to have a family, feminists complain about the pay gap, reject all other explanations and insist it is sexism. Yet funnily enough, young women earn more than young men (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2237196/Women-win-gender-pay-war-20s-earning-men-age.html).

Why don't we see feminists complaining about this inequality? Do they only complain about inequality when men are doing better? But when women are doing better, they keep quiet and brush it under the carpet?

Is inequality bad even when it's not down to sexism? Are feminists happy for men to dominate in certain careers even if the men got their jobs fairly and due to being better? Or are feminists bitter about men dominating in several fields because of their sex and are only interested in equality of outcome or even female supremacy?

So feminists and non-feminists, do you want equality of opportunity or do you want equality of outcome or even female supremacy? And why?

(edited 10 years ago)

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Reply 1

The Angry Stoic

I don't mind a few girls bossing me about :wink:

Reply 2

SaFa1237

When I was younger I saw myself as a feminist because I wanted equality for all but when I saw how some females just complained about stupid things in the name of feminism and how the media portrayed them in a negative light. I adopted the principles of equalism. :smile:

Reply 3

chocoholic_x

Well, firstly, I'm not sure it's particularly accurate to generalise feminists as having the same beliefs as there can be varying views between individuals who declare themselves as feminist. I would, personally, say I'm a feminist as I want equal political, economic, and social rights for women, which is what I believe the term 'feminism' means.

For me, put simply, I want equal opportunity. However, there is a lot of evidence to show that we are not there yet. Of course, you can explain the differences in pay gap for a number of reasons without resorting to "they're sexist!". But, there is no proof that these reasons explain all instances. I ask you to take a look at this very intriguing study: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109 - which shows that, all other things being equal, gender does make a difference in the eyes of others.
You're right there is gender discrimination against men as well, such as in the case of male nurses. Of course, this is something I, personally, feel as strongly about as in discrimination against women. It would be unfair to say that all feminists care about is gender discrimination against women.
On the point about women in politics, I think people are more angry about this because politicians are meant to be representative, they are the voices for the whole society in general. It is much like the argument that the cabinet is full of old Etonians and the Oxbridge elite, when most of the country have not studied in these institutions. Yes, these people may have more qualifications, but should they represent the people? It's a difficult issue, one I haven't quite made my mind up about.

Also, another point I'd just like to add is that, as a feminist, I believe that there are much greater issues of gender inequality within the social aspect. I find the general societal pressure that is placed on women (and men, at times) more of a pressing matter than the current economic situation.

Reply 4

chocoholic_x

Can I just also add, why have there been so many threads about feminism recently? :tongue:

I feel like I have never been in more demand.

Reply 5

truffle_girl

chocoholic_x

For me, put simply, I want equal opportunity. However, there is a lot of evidence to show that we are not there yet. Of course, you can explain the differences in pay gap for a number of reasons without resorting to "they're sexist!". But, there is no proof that these reasons explain all instances. I ask you to take a look at this very intriguing study: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109 - which shows that, all other things being equal, gender does make a difference in the eyes of others.

I don't have time to look at the study right now, but there are studies which suggest the opposite. I'd also like to ask why women in their 20s outearn men in their 20s? If discrimination against women is rife? Why isn't THIS seen as being down to discrimination against MEN? Why would an employer pay a woman less, and hence a man MORE, for the same productivity and experience? Why would anyone be employing men, if they were more expensive, for the same work? In this economic climate, especially?

On the point about women in politics, I think people are more angry about this because politicians are meant to be representative, they are the voices for the whole society in general.

A relative lack of women, doesn't necessarily mean a lack of representation FOR women. Look at how many feminists there are, in government. Do you see men's issues being dealt with as seriously as women's issues, by MPs?

Reply 6

Ultimate1

No they don't. Feminists [even the ones who swear that they're truly for equality] just want to absolve women of all responsibility and want men to pick up the slack.

/thread.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 7

kunoichi

Op i think you need to learn the difference between feminists and feminazis/female supremacists.

Reply 8

truffle_girl

kunoichi

Op i think you need to learn the difference between feminists and feminazis/female supremacists.

I think that these 'not like the extremists' feminists need to learn to be able to say something more in defence of their arguments, other than "but some of us just want equality!!!", even when the fundamental flaws in the very idea of feminism fighting mainly for women's rights, are repeatedly pointed out.

Reply 9

Chocolate Mousse

Surprise, surprise, another feminism thread. How original.

Reply 10

chocoholic_x

Original post by truffle_girl

I did mention that in my previous post. But to paraphrase again, I do know there is gender discrimination towards men in certain sectors, and it is something that makes me just as angry. It is disappointing that men do not earn as much as women in their 20s, I'd have to look into the topic much more to make any conclusions as to why this is.

Original post by truffle_girl

Again, I feel like you may have ignored the rest of my post where I mentioned that I had not made my mind up on the issue as it is a complex one. Do you agree with a disproportionate number of MPs coming from fairly privileged backgrounds? Even though there are some MPs that fight equal opportunity for people from disadvantaged socio-economically? If yes, surely you can see why such an argument is made. That was my point, I can understand the argument for why an under-representation of women in politics is bad but ask me in a few years, and I may have made my mind up by then. :tongue:

Reply 11

SexiestNameEver

I think you made this thread after seeing mine right? And yes, i think those extremely sexist men should get ****ed.

Reply 12

kunoichi

Original post by truffle_girl

I do just want equality and tbh mostly as far as im concerned, we have it.

The pay gap? Always going to exist whilst women give birth to children. We have to take time off, and naturally that stops us from earning as much or progressing as fast.
Who cares which gender is at the top of education,earnings etc? Aslong as there is an equal starting line for everyone and the opportunities are there it is up to people regardless of gender to work for more and make the most of the opportunities we start out with.
The only thing i dislike really is people's general attitudes to women. This post on everyday sexism sums it up really. Everything legal we could want, we have.

'A. 2013-05-29 18:29
I transitioned from female to male a while ago, and genes-wise, I lucked out in that my appearance is such that I can decide whether I want that history known or not. I'm endlessly floored by the differences in how I'm treated.
Guys now feel perfectly at ease saying the most offensive things about women, grinning at me and expecting agreement. People respect my personal space in buses (at least more than before). If I'm angry, depressed, or irritated, people don't write it off as PMS. During group projects or discussions, people listen when I speak up and I'm rarely interrupted. I'm 'knowledgeable', not 'knowledgeable for a girl'. If I talk about my ambivalence regarding raising kids, I'm not told 'You'll change your mind when you're older. Pregnancy is one of the most rewarding things you'll ever go through.'
Really though, the most striking part is that now, I'm assumed competent until proven otherwise, as opposed to incompetent until (repeatedly) proven otherwise.'

I dont see what we can do about this, except work hard to change attitudes around, not accepting derogatory comments etc.

Men do face their problems. We need to work on our attitudes to men in childcare and teaching. We need to work on helping male rape and sexual assault victims. Men too, have their negative gender roles which need working on.
But as the quote above proves, we still have our issues, they still need working on.

This is my view as a non extreme feminist.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 13

shadowdweller

Volunteer Section Leader

Original post by kunoichi

That's hardly a justification of the pay gap. Not all women will want/have children, and some men may chose to stay at home with the children whilst the mother returns to work

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 14

username878045

Original post by shadowdweller

That's hardly a justification of the pay gap. Not all women will want/have children, and some men may chose to stay at home with the children whilst the mother returns to work

Posted from TSR Mobile

And men who look after their kids for 5 years will earn less than women who never had kids...

Reply 15

kunoichi

Original post by shadowdweller

That's hardly a justification of the pay gap. Not all women will want/have children, and some men may chose to stay at home with the children whilst the mother returns to work

Posted from TSR Mobile

So because some women dont want to have children, those who do should progress as fast and get as many pay rises as those who choose to stay in the workplace?
Higher pay and promotion should be given to those who stay in the workplace and work hardest regardless of gender. Biologically women have the babies and if women choose to have them then they are taking themselves out of the workplace which is their choice.

If you are talking about literal differences of pay for the same jobs then that is wrong, However i have never seen this happen and dont know anyone it has happened too. Therefore i dont tend to argue about it.

Reply 16

shadowdweller

Volunteer Section Leader

Original post by PythianLegume

And men who look after their kids for 5 years will earn less than women who never had kids...

Yes, I'm aware. I'm not suggesting otherwise, just saying that maternity leave etc isn't a justification for the pay gap

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 17

shadowdweller

Volunteer Section Leader

Original post by kunoichi

Oh OK, I misunderstood the argument you were making, apologies

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Reply 18

Hellz_Bellz!

Original post by Ultimate1

No they don't. Feminists [even the ones who swear that they're truly for equality] just want to absolve women of all responsibility and want men to pick up the slack.

/thread.

Yes, just paint everyone with the same brush :rolleyes: