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64% of UK students studying Computer Science did not study A-level Mathematics...

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Original post by fat_hobbit
I agree.

A huge reason why it hasn't taken off is because there are just not enough trained programmers out there who want to become teachers.

Well...why would they? An average contractor that is a developer in IT, makes 500 pounds a day. They can make more money in industry. Or they can make money doing their own projects, mobile apps etc (I am doing this right now on the side)

So state schools in particular cannot introduce it as an option, let alone develop an Alevel course that is a fully fledged introductory CS AL. Comes down to money in the end.


I completely agree with you.

I'm about to hopefully starting studying to become a computer teacher and it is utterly ridiculous how bad some of the courses are but most of it just comes down to how expensive computing is to run, and the complete lack of computer scientists in teaching. Most are IT teachers reading a couple of pages ahead of the students and they just don't know what's happening.

The last school I visited had brilliant students taking a levels in computing and maths but they were just bored with the course. One teacher, an actual computing graduate, was having to give them extra work outside of the a level because it was just too easy for them. Another teacher who had been working as an IT teacher for years (I have no idea how because she was borderline incompetent) had a class of very frustrated students who were being told to do simple things over and over again without any answers to more complex questions and you could almost see their interest draining from them. It's just not an equal situation.

It probably didn't help that the students were using XP, and had to use Frontpage to create websites. Computing provisions in schools is just depressing when you see these brilliant students being taught utter rubbish.

It seems such a waste to not entwine maths and computing together at GCSE and during A level if it'll give students an advantage at uni. I coped without an A level in maths and left uni a couple of weeks ago with a 2.i, and the highest mark in Algorithmics (90%) that the module leader has seen in years. It makes so much more sense when maths is taught in a practical way that directly applies to what is going on in computing instead of it being a big scary theoretical lump.
Original post by ParadoxSocks
I completely agree with you.

I'm about to hopefully starting studying to become a computer teacher and it is utterly ridiculous how bad some of the courses are but most of it just comes down to how expensive computing is to run, and the complete lack of computer scientists in teaching. Most are IT teachers reading a couple of pages ahead of the students and they just don't know what's happening.

The last school I visited had brilliant students taking a levels in computing and maths but they were just bored with the course. One teacher, an actual computing graduate, was having to give them extra work outside of the a level because it was just too easy for them. Another teacher who had been working as an IT teacher for years (I have no idea how because she was borderline incompetent) had a class of very frustrated students who were being told to do simple things over and over again without any answers to more complex questions and you could almost see their interest draining from them. It's just not an equal situation.

It probably didn't help that the students were using XP, and had to use Frontpage to create websites. Computing provisions in schools is just depressing when you see these brilliant students being taught utter rubbish.

It seems such a waste to not entwine maths and computing together at GCSE and during A level if it'll give students an advantage at uni. I coped without an A level in maths and left uni a couple of weeks ago with a 2.i, and the highest mark in Algorithmics (90%) that the module leader has seen in years. It makes so much more sense when maths is taught in a practical way that directly applies to what is going on in computing instead of it being a big scary theoretical lump.


Absolutely.

Computing is also a fast moving field right now - why on earth would a teacher be motivated to keep up with the latest trends if they can get away with the bare minimum and get a pay check out of it. The bare minimum being the curriculum. There is also a lot of bureaucracy in the education system which does not aid matters, because for one syllabus change probably goes through a lot of levels.

In contrast, last week, in order to develop a cross platform mobile app, I had to learn Titanium/Alloy, backbone.js.

It was insanely hard to learn because the documentation out there is so extremely poor. The compiler is **** too, and not to mention the 3rd party adapters are buggy (Rest api comes to mind).

So what ends up happening, you get guys who become specialists in emerging tech that are a bit obscure who can demand a **** load in industry. This keeps them motivated.

A CS degree nationwide has a similar pitfall. We were encouraged to code from scratch (which is good), but from talking to so many CS grads, they have no concepts of what actually happens in industry and like I was doing creating code from scratch (writing algorithms). To give a quick example, for transaction emailing, graduates would probably use a server side language such as PHP, use the mail function and PHP to handle it, causing them to become blacklisted, when they can just integrate a 3rd party API such as mailjet/postageapp to do it for you.

For any CS grad, the above is what employers are really looking for in a graduate. Time is everything in industry.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by ParadoxSocks
It seems such a waste to not entwine maths and computing together at GCSE and during A level if it'll give students an advantage at uni. I coped without an A level in maths and left uni a couple of weeks ago with a 2.i, and the highest mark in Algorithmics (90%) that the module leader has seen in years. It makes so much more sense when maths is taught in a practical way that directly applies to what is going on in computing instead of it being a big scary theoretical lump.


To add to this point:

Mathematics is just a tool you use to (one can argue) help model data in computing. So for example you can use bayes theorem in search as you can filter data using it.

It HELPS A LOT if you know why you are using it to begin with. It also makes learning a lot more fun as you can see practically what is going on.

An Alevel in maths will give the student an advantage, sure - as they have seen it all before. But again it goes back to my earlier point, if the student without an AL maths is motivated (and good enough) to learn, they will pick it up on a need to know bases.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 203
Original post by fat_hobbit

A CS degree nationwide has a similar pitfall. We were encouraged to code from scratch (which is good), but from talking to so many CS grads, they have no concepts of what actually happens in industry and like I was doing creating code from scratch (writing algorithms). To give a quick example, for transaction emailing, graduates would probably use a server side language such as PHP, use the mail function and PHP to handle it, causing them to become blacklisted, when they can just integrate a 3rd party API such as mailjet/postageapp to do it for you.


This.

I've some work experience now and I wouldn't do something from scratch. There's a reason why 'reusability' is such a sexy term for developers.

But if I were a freshie, I'd probably try to impress my employers by the 'building from scratch' mentality unfortunately.
Reply 204
I go to Nottingham and there is maths but nothing similar to A level mathematics.
Then why don't the students do A Level Maths in the first place? Imo it shows that you're reasonably competent enough at Maths to do a CS degree.

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Original post by yl95
Then why don't the students do A Level Maths in the first place? Imo it shows that you're reasonably competent enough at Maths to do a CS degree.

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Preference - some students may enjoy computing more than maths.

Plus - if you are only doing ALs to maximise your UCAS points, doing slightly easier subjects is probably a better idea....most grad schemes dont care.
Original post by noone29
How on earth do these students cope?? They are either a) attending a poor institution which is dishing out pieces of paper for money (because sorry, without A-level Mathematics, no one will do well in a respectable CompSci degree) or b) struggling appallingly with their subject.

Personally, I think it is more likely to be the former unfortunately, given that the more respected universities request A-level Mathematics as a pre-requisite to any application.

How do we get more kids to take Maths to 18? Perhaps make it compulsory? There are obviously downsides to that, but at a time when many developing countries are far better, as a whole, in Mathematics maybe it's time to bite the bullet and catch up?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23243533


my husband didn't do a level maths. he was doing BSc comp sci but was offered MEng in his second year as he did very well. the university wasn't a poor one either since he got offered a coveted job before he even graduated.

maths a level isn't needed by some as they can cope just fine.

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Original post by fat_hobbit
Preference - some students may enjoy computing more than maths.

Plus - if you are only doing ALs to maximise your UCAS points, doing slightly easier subjects is probably a better idea....most grad schemes dont care.


I still think that if you want to do a CS degree, you should be competent at Maths and at least want to do Maths - you get four subjects to choose in your ASes and generally people do 3 in A2. I don't see how people who want to do CS shouldn't choose Maths just because they prefer Computing.

Which grad schemes and which easier subjects? I've never been through the process. I want to know. :l
Original post by yl95
I still think that if you want to do a CS degree, you should be competent at Maths and at least want to do Maths - you get four subjects to choose in your ASes and generally people do 3 in A2. I don't see how people who want to do CS shouldn't choose Maths just because they prefer Computing.

Which grad schemes and which easier subjects? I've never been through the process. I want to know. :l


Again, it comes down to preference.

What if someone does choose maths, but decides they want to major in 3 other subjects at A2?

Most graduate schemes do not care about what Alevels you took, with the exception of general studies.

The top Grad schemes - to give one example, Accenture, will specify x amount of UCAS points. This can be from a combination of any 3 subjects.

The only thing they may ask is for you to have studied a relevant degree, typically STEM based:

"This is a highly technical programme, so you will need a degree in IT, computer science or a technology-related subject. However, we will also consider maths, science and engineering graduates who can demonstrate a passion and flair for IT. Whichever applies, you must have 240 UCAS points and a predicted 2:1 or equivalent.
Flexibility and mobility are essential too. You could be put on a project anywhere in the UK. This may mean working away from home Monday to Friday."

Source: accenture web site.

I honestly think that rather than fretting on here about whether Alevel maths is relevant or not - people should really look at how their choices now will affect their career choices in the future. It is coming across as many in this thread have no clue about what actually happens outside of academia, which for somebody working in industry is concerning to see.

Planning, and extensive research is what will give you the edge over other graduates.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by noone29
How on earth do these students cope?? They are either a) attending a poor institution which is dishing out pieces of paper for money (because sorry, without A-level Mathematics, no one will do well in a respectable CompSci degree) or b) struggling appallingly with their subject.

Personally, I think it is more likely to be the former unfortunately, given that the more respected universities request A-level Mathematics as a pre-requisite to any application.

How do we get more kids to take Maths to 18? Perhaps make it compulsory? There are obviously downsides to that, but at a time when many developing countries are far better, as a whole, in Mathematics maybe it's time to bite the bullet and catch up?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23243533


I am going into my final year of Software Engineering at Queens University Belfast. I did not study a level maths, and only got a B at gcse. Quite frankly, I hated maths and still don't like it.

I have achieved a first in all but one of my modules, the one exception bring a 2:1. Of those firsts, my lowest was 77%. I am good at my subject, regardless of mathematical ability, because Computer Science/SE is about logic not hard mathematics.
Original post by jburnside615
I am going into my final year of Software Engineering at Queens University Belfast. I did not study a level maths, and only got a B at gcse. Quite frankly, I hated maths and still don't like it.

I have achieved a first in all but one of my modules, the one exception bring a 2:1. Of those firsts, my lowest was 77%. I am good at my subject, regardless of mathematical ability, because Computer Science/SE is about logic not hard mathematics.


Mathematics is logic though.. In fact most higher level mathematics is just critical thinking.

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Original post by Princepieman
Mathematics is logic though.. In fact most higher level mathematics is just critical thinking.

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Problem solving and discrete mathematics scared the hell out of me when I first found out it was one of my modules, but I still don't consider that 'hard maths'. By that I mean, I was able to understand Boolean logic and problem solving maths as it wasn't working with raw data and calculating as gcse and a level maths does (for someone who wasn't good at maths, I got 98% in this module. It was one of my highest marks).

It is maths in a completely different way, so people wanting to study computer science should not be forced to have it (in my opinion, of course). Working with raw figures was not my thing, I hated it, and I still do very well in my course. I agree either some sciences or maths should be required, as if you can understand statistics on biology or calculations for moles on chemstry, you will have no problem in uni doing CS or software engineering. Maths however is not the only indicator of an ability with logic and problems, do it should be an option not compulsory.
Original post by Princepieman
Mathematics is logic though.. In fact most higher level mathematics is just critical thinking.

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Programming really doesn't require any knowledge of mathematics beyond basic arithmetic though. The kind of advanced stuff which mathematics students need to learn for A-Level and beyond is irrelevant for the vast majority of programming tasks.

A lot of great programmers out there aren't really very good mathematicians - the kinds of problems which programmers face on a day-to-day basis don't require any kinds of mathematics knowledge or training, so even the ones who trained as mathematicians usually end up forgetting a lot of it because they never use it.
Original post by winterscoming
Programming really doesn't require any knowledge of mathematics beyond basic arithmetic though. The kind of advanced stuff which mathematics students need to learn for A-Level and beyond is irrelevant for the vast majority of programming tasks.

A lot of great programmers out there aren't really very good mathematicians - the kinds of problems which programmers face on a day-to-day basis don't require any kinds of mathematics knowledge or training, so even the ones who trained as mathematicians usually end up forgetting a lot of it because they never use it.


That's cool and all but CompSci at university is only tenuously linked to "programming". It's an academic discipline, not a vocational degree to train you for a programming monkey gig.

The skills you gain from a CS/Maths/Physics etc degree are the problem solving, critical thinking and higher order logic skills. These, fortunately, map quite well with one's ability to understand fundamentals rather than whipping up random lines of code.

Also "programming" is a broad term. There absolutely are software engineers, industrial scientists and other such individuals who have to understand higher level mathematics to do what they do - you can find these people in AI/Machine Learning, graphics and physics engine development, low latency computing etc.


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I didn't learn AS/A Maths and i'm doing Software Engineering.

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