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When will islam get the message...

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Original post by Isengard
And this is where your argument falls down, sharia law isn't compatible with our laws and as such muslims who fall our laws can not claim to be falling the muslim law. By seeking the land of honey they're tying themselves up into a paradox of self-centredness.


What ARE you on about? At the end of the day, this isn't a Muslim country and there are lots of secular Muslim majority countries as well

Also, I think *some* parts can be ie: sharia finance for example is a pretty close model to the pretty robust German banking system....
Original post by Isengard
militaristic and martyr driven religion breeds


Can someone who has an understanding of Islam explain why people think this is true and whether it is or not.

Also, having read into this quite a bit, a lot of the 'violence' seems to be highly political with the states involved themselves being militaristic due to the government regime. The religion bit seems to be the small dressing on the side that wouldn't make much difference if the religion was completely eradicated. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that what is happening in the whole picture is human nature. There's always going to be differences in politics, ways of life, perception of other beings, etc... And this is an example of that and we have to deal with it.

The next part I say from what I've learnt from others so please correct me if I'm wrong.

The religion of Islam seems to have faults and bad attitudes just like any other religion has. Such religions that could be used as Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity and in some case Buddhism. However, a large majority of these 'faults' and 'bad attitudes' mostly seem due to those few who interpret it in that way.

Okay, so you ask why hasn't Western society been led down the same way. To a certain extent, it has. It is only relatively recently that this has (mostly) ceased and this is all because of education. People now have the correct mind set and understanding of the world to be able to recognise that religion (in its simplest form) is an ancient concept that has existed perhaps since near the beginning of humanity. But we are now developed enough to realise that religion and the real world should remain as separate as possible. For those who disagree, this has already happened. Just compared today's world with 100-200 years ago.

However, other regions haven't had this sort of education and once you have no education you fall back on the one thing that nobody can take away from you which is faith in your religious beliefs. Because religion is such an ancient concept that most in the East are bought up with, you cannot fault someone with no education to fall back on their beliefs when they have nothing.

Now, in the background, there are all these political agendas going on so logically the cleverest way to manipulate everyone is to take these people with no/little education, take their religion and warp their political agendas around that religion. Once you've grown up in the East with no education, the politics will soon seem like the religion for these people who can't separate them because of their poor upbringing/education.

So now, how do we fix this? The first thing is that education needs to be highly improved. People should also be taught about how things are in the West as I believe some people are ignorant about this. Second of all, everyone should learn more about how things got to the way they are right now. Yes, dealing with the problem at hand is necessary but doing it correctly will require finding the source of the problem first.

Thanks for reading, and I am happy to take any criticism about my argument and hopefully try and rebut counter arguments.
Original post by JPL9457
you are using the daily fail as your evidence :facepalm:


Haha I'm gonna use that name next time I try to convince people to stop reading it :ahee:
Original post by Isengard
Hundreds of thousands support the EDL and millions support UKIP - the message is clear enough.


The EDL are disgusting. Yesterday, I had to avoid going to town with my boyfriend because the idiots were in Birmingham, and he's Pakistani. We've had abuse hurled at us before, and obviously, weren't going to walk past a whole group of uneducated racist *****. I can assure you, most people do not want these jokers around. It caused a massive amount of disruption throughout Birmingham, with transport and having to go around certain places to avoid them. I would have liked to have been able to walk into my city free from abuse, but alas, no.
Reply 24
Original post by Isengard
And this is where your argument falls down, sharia law isn't compatible with our laws and as such muslims who fall our laws can not claim to be falling the muslim law. By seeking the land of honey they're tying themselves up into a paradox of self-centredness.


You do know that one of the main rules are to follow the laws of the land? This does mean to follow the laws in place.
Reply 25
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
The EDL are disgusting. Yesterday, I had to avoid going to town with my boyfriend because the idiots were in Birmingham, and he's Pakistani. We've had abuse hurled at us before, and obviously, weren't going to walk past a whole group of uneducated racist *****. I can assure you, most people do not want these jokers around. It caused a massive amount of disruption throughout Birmingham, with transport and having to go around certain places to avoid them. I would have liked to have been able to walk into my city free from abuse, but alas, no.


I'd rather have the EDL in my city any day of the week than the socialist numpties throwing parties bordering on riots when Thatcher popped up her clogs.
Reply 26
Original post by umarsa
You do know that one of the main rules are to follow the laws of the land? This does mean to follow the laws in place.


Then what the heck is the point in the Quranic laws that run counter to UK laws like stoning people for divorces.
Original post by Isengard
I'd rather have the EDL in my city any day of the week than the socialist numpties throwing parties bordering on riots when Thatcher popped up her clogs.


I think that was disgusting as well, and I'm not a supporter of Thatcher. But that's not this argument. It's not a case of the EDL or socialist numpties, as you put it, there is a perfectly reasonable centre ground, and perfectly reasonable conservatives and left wingers. This is about the EDL and how they behave in large groups..
Reply 28
Original post by Isengard
Then what the heck is the point in the Quranic laws that run counter to UK laws like stoning people for divorces.


That doesn't happen as nearly as often as you think. In fact I don't think this even happens anymore. I am not going to sit here and have a long winded debate about religion as it can go on for ever. To be fair, the Bible also has some contradicting statements but no one ever mentions them? The Quran and the Bible both have very very similar teachings along with most other religions believe it or not.

Religion should never be taken so literally, it should be applied to society today.
Reply 29
Original post by Drewski
Islamic terrorists no more represent Islam than the KKK represents Christianity.


Hit the nail on the head.

Original post by Isengard
And this is where your argument falls down, sharia law isn't compatible with our laws and as such muslims who fall our laws can not claim to be falling the muslim law. By seeking the land of honey they're tying themselves up into a paradox of self-centredness.


As last I heard, no more then 25% 'would like' their Sharia Law represented to some degree, only 5% wanted it outright. I can deal with 25% wanting some of their Religious Laws represented, as long as they don't interfere with the rights of other Muslims who don't and other people in general. Whilst I don't want to see Islamic Law practiced to its potentially full state, I'm quite happy with allowing them certain aspects of their Laws, again as long as they aren't dangerous to others or negate their freedoms and rights.
Frankly, the other 5% can get stuffed. They wanted to come here, the full potential of their laws can never be represented here, it just wouldn't work. However, this is such a minute margin of Islamic people in the UK that they're never going to have that.
My argument hasn't fallen down, the point is still very much steadfast. Whilst Sharia law in itself isn't fully compatible, elements are and we are never going to let those laws fully take form here.
The actions of the religions believers doesn't justify the religions destruction the religions actually teachings does.
Reply 31
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
I think that was disgusting as well, and I'm not a supporter of Thatcher. But that's not this argument. It's not a case of the EDL or socialist numpties, as you put it, there is a perfectly reasonable centre ground, and perfectly reasonable conservatives and left wingers. This is about the EDL and how they behave in large groups..


Have you seen how Labour supporters act in large groups, queuing in a line begging for your money. Labour supporters are either unemployed, lazy, public sector workers or a combination of the three. Conservative supporters just care about business and the rich. There is no centre-ground, just a variety of bigoted allsorts.
Reply 32
Original post by Isengard
I'd rather have the EDL in my city any day of the week than the socialist numpties throwing parties bordering on riots when Thatcher popped up her clogs.


There's no doubt Left-Wing pressure groups act just as irresponsibly. The UAF is just as bad as the EDL, they just happen to support my views, that does not mean however that I condone their dangerous and violent actions.
I've absolutely no adoration for Thatcher at all, that being said I find it unspeakably distasteful that people reacted to her death the way they did. They were no better then some WBC head-bangers picketing a dead soldier's funeral, its the same level of low.

Still, as another user pointed out, this is about the EDL and they are just as bad just as often as the UAF and the 'socialist numpties' throwing parties.
who says the UK is your shores?
Original post by Isengard
Have you seen how Labour supporters act in large groups, queuing in a line begging for your money. Labour supporters are either unemployed, lazy, public sector workers or a combination of the three. Conservative supporters just care about business and the rich. There is no centre-ground, just a variety of bigoted allsorts.


I'm a member of Labour. And no, the majority of us aren't benefit scroungers or whatever you're implying. You do realise the vast majority of people on benefits aren't scroungers? You just don't hear about them because the sensationalist newspapers don't want to hear about genuine ones
Reply 35
Original post by Tyrion_Lannister
I'm a member of Labour. And no, the majority of us aren't benefit scroungers or whatever you're implying. You do realise the vast majority of people on benefits aren't scroungers? You just don't hear about them because the sensationalist newspapers don't want to hear about genuine ones


It really isn't that hard to find employment, the problem was Labour gave people the illusion that getting a career was more important than getting employment - even if that meant applying for jobs in a narrow field while scrounging for years. This is why workfare exists and why Labour support workfare.
Original post by Isengard
Have you seen how Labour supporters act in large groups, queuing in a line begging for your money. Labour supporters are either unemployed, lazy, public sector workers or a combination of the three. Conservative supporters just care about business and the rich. There is no centre-ground, just a variety of bigoted allsorts.

I fail to see how you can be an unemployed public sector worker.
Reply 37
Original post by tengentoppa
I fail to see how you can be an unemployed public sector worker.


A combination doesn't have to be all three. But the vast majority of public sector workers aren't adding anything to society and are no better than unemployed people - both are scrounging.
Original post by Isengard
It really isn't that hard to find employment, the problem was Labour gave people the illusion that getting a career was more important than getting employment - even if that meant applying for jobs in a narrow field while scrounging for years. This is why workfare exists and why Labour support workfare.


Do you lack an understanding of economics? There literally aren't jobs. Not every job is suitable for every person. The problem with the free market theory is that is assumes 1 job/1 person without any regard for the person's skills, abilities, geogrpahical location, I could add more.

This isn't about Labour. You can debate with myself and other Labour supporters on other threads if you want, but this is about the EDL and their horrible actions
Reply 39
Original post by slickrick666999
Civilized? Is 7th century Islam civlized?:confused: awfully confused as to your comments.

But then again, bringing in people from the most dangerous parts of the world is a good idea to Labour voters, like yourself? :tongue:


I view 7th Century Islam as civilised, but that was not the reason I converted a few years ago. I converted because of the beliefs which I agreed on.

What are the most dangerous parts of the world? Somalia, DRC, other Sub Saharan African countries. That doesn't have anything to do with this thread.

When did I mention I voted for labour? I'm actually tory. I'm from a upper middle class background so why would I vote labour?

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(edited 10 years ago)

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