Getting a 2:2 from a top 25 non-UK uni or a 2:1 from a UK uni?
I'm currently an international student studying in an Asian university (top 25 in the world) but I'm looking to transfer into Durham University.
Statistics-wise, it's much harder to get a 2:1 over here than in UK. Over here, only 20% of the students in my faculty end up with a 2:1 and above. In comparison, 90+% of students in Durham graduate with a 2:1 and above.
Other differences include:
* I'm particularly concerned about the degree classification as I intend to pursue my post-graduate studies. There is quite a probable chance that I will get a 2:2 if I were to stay in my current university. Do UK universities take the rigorous nature of our academic system into account when admitting international students for masters program? Or should I just play safe and transfer into Durham (I've been given an offer there already) to ensure that I secure that 2:1?
Thanks guys!
Statistics-wise, it's much harder to get a 2:1 over here than in UK. Over here, only 20% of the students in my faculty end up with a 2:1 and above. In comparison, 90+% of students in Durham graduate with a 2:1 and above.
Other differences include:
•
number of contact hours (15-20 contact hours/week compared to 10 contact hours/week in UK).
•
bell-curve grading system so even getting 70 marks in a particular module may not get you a good grade.
•
4-years degree here vs 3-years degree in UK
•
ALL grades throughout the 4 years are taken into account vs only 2nd & 3rd year in UK
* I'm particularly concerned about the degree classification as I intend to pursue my post-graduate studies. There is quite a probable chance that I will get a 2:2 if I were to stay in my current university. Do UK universities take the rigorous nature of our academic system into account when admitting international students for masters program? Or should I just play safe and transfer into Durham (I've been given an offer there already) to ensure that I secure that 2:1?
Thanks guys!
(edited 10 years ago)
Scroll to see replies
I'm going to refrain from tackling the question head-on, because chances are someone who actually knows their **** will pop-up and give you the correct answer, but wouldn't you typically undergo some kind of a qualification legalization process that would account for the actual equivalency of your 2:2 being far better than an English 2:2?
Realistically, if you intend to later live and work in UK, you're far better off at Durham because a 2:2 will automatically screw you over when it comes to clueless HR idiots automatically filtering anything that isn't 2:1 or above. Also Durham really likes to pimp itself out and maintain their self-perpetuated overrated reputation as second only to Oxbridge, so it carries quite a fair bit of prestige and renown within UK and might open quite a handful more doors for you - something you may not have been able to tell just by looking at their relatively mediocre world rankings.
EDIT: Oh, for post-grad presumably the academic institutions would know better than that.
Realistically, if you intend to later live and work in UK, you're far better off at Durham because a 2:2 will automatically screw you over when it comes to clueless HR idiots automatically filtering anything that isn't 2:1 or above. Also Durham really likes to pimp itself out and maintain their self-perpetuated overrated reputation as second only to Oxbridge, so it carries quite a fair bit of prestige and renown within UK and might open quite a handful more doors for you - something you may not have been able to tell just by looking at their relatively mediocre world rankings.
EDIT: Oh, for post-grad presumably the academic institutions would know better than that.
(edited 10 years ago)
Thanks for your reply!
Anyway, not sure if I should have posted this in the Postgraduate Sub-Forum instead so would appreciate it if some mod could redirect it for me?
Anyway, not sure if I should have posted this in the Postgraduate Sub-Forum instead so would appreciate it if some mod could redirect it for me?
Original post by Default_Username
I'm currently an international student studying in a top-25 Asian university but I'm looking to transfer into Durham University.
Statistics-wise, it's much harder to get a 2:1 over here than in UK. Over here, only 20% of the students in my faculty end up with a 2:1 and above. In comparison, 90+% of students in Durham graduate with a 2:1 and above.
Other differences include:
* I'm particularly concerned about the degree classification as I intend to pursue my post-graduate studies. There is quite a probable chance that I will get a 2:2 if I were to stay in my current university. Do UK universities take the rigorous nature of our academic system into account when admitting international students for masters program? Or should I just play safe and transfer into Durham (I've been given an offer there already) to ensure that I secure that 2:1?
Thanks guys!
Statistics-wise, it's much harder to get a 2:1 over here than in UK. Over here, only 20% of the students in my faculty end up with a 2:1 and above. In comparison, 90+% of students in Durham graduate with a 2:1 and above.
Other differences include:
•
number of contact hours (15-20 contact hours/week compared to 10 contact hours/week in UK).
•
bell-curve grading system so even getting 70 marks in a particular module may not get you a good grade.
•
4-years degree here vs 3-years degree in UK
•
ALL grades throughout the 4 years are taken into account vs only 2nd & 3rd year in UK
* I'm particularly concerned about the degree classification as I intend to pursue my post-graduate studies. There is quite a probable chance that I will get a 2:2 if I were to stay in my current university. Do UK universities take the rigorous nature of our academic system into account when admitting international students for masters program? Or should I just play safe and transfer into Durham (I've been given an offer there already) to ensure that I secure that 2:1?
Thanks guys!
It is a different system.
The top UK universities kick all your Asian universities in reputation and standards.
The value of a degree drops off a cliff as you cross from 2.1 to 2.2. You suddenly become disqualified from most graduate schemes and from PhD funding.
What's a "top 25 Asian university"?
Does your university actually award a degree class or are you converting the class in some way?
What's a "top 25 Asian university"?
Does your university actually award a degree class or are you converting the class in some way?
Original post by Observatory
The value of a degree drops off a cliff as you cross from 2.1 to 2.2. You suddenly become disqualified from most graduate schemes and from PhD funding.
What's a "top 25 Asian university"?
Does your university actually award a degree class or are you converting the class in some way?
What's a "top 25 Asian university"?
Does your university actually award a degree class or are you converting the class in some way?
Hi there, I'm from the National University of Singapore. They follow the British degree classification system (1:1,2:1,2:2 etc.) so there's no conversion of grades involved.
Original post by Default_Username
Hi there, I'm from the National University of Singapore. They follow the British degree classification system (1:1,2:1,2:2 etc.) so there's no conversion of grades involved.
Oh dear. I'm sorry to say that you have encountered the educational equivalent of a perfect storm. You are probably receiving a 1940s British Empire-approved quality education, of the sort that used to be offered by the lowliest polytechnic here but now is only rivalled by Oxbridge and a few of the best London universities. Because your country has chosen to keep what works rather than following the metropole into the post-modern abyss, you will receive a lower grade for more work. Because this grade is not reported differently and most people don't know anything about Singapore, it is unlikely you will receive preferential treatment compared to a British graduate with the same classification. It's possible you will be treated worse.
Unless you want to stay in Singapore I would advise you to transfer to Durham as quickly as possible and take the 2.1.
btw, it's not true in general that British degrees do not count the 1st year although it is very common.
Original post by Observatory
You are probably receiving a 1940s British Empire-approved quality education, of the sort that used to be offered by the lowliest polytechnic here but now is only rivalled by Oxbridge and a few of the best London universities.
Appreciate the lengthy reply. Although I don't really get this point
Original post by Default_Username
Appreciate the lengthy reply. Although I don't really get this point
Once upon a time polytechnics (which are/were regarded as the "worst" universities in Britain) awarded University of London external degrees. That is, the degree was the same as one from UCL, ICL, or LSE. The honours classification system worked much as it had originally with 3rds, 2.2s etc. representing a good but not exceptional performance. Since polytechnics had on average the "worst" students, they tended to award very few 1sts and 2.1s - but if you received one, it indicated as high attainment as if you had received it from UCL or one of those other famous institutions. In Britain, the trend for the past few decades years has been for all universities to award their own degrees, for a 2.1 to become an "ordinary pass", and for the difficulty in getting various degree classes to vary wildly between institutions.
The University of Singapore was founded by the British when the old system was still functioning. After independence, Singapore has retained the earlier British tradition. In most ways this is a good thing. In practical terms for you it is a bad thing, because you are awarded a degree that looks like a British degree but has a lower grade attached for a given level of attainment.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Observatory
Once upon a time polytechnics (which are/were regarded as the "worst" universities in Britain) awarded University of London external degrees. That is, the degree was the same as one from UCL, ICL, or LSE. The honours classification system worked much as it had originally with 3rds, 2.2s etc. representing a good but not exceptional performance. Since polytechnics had on average the "worst" students, they tended to award very few 1sts and 2.1s - but if you received one, it indicated as high attainment as if you had received it from UCL or one of those other famous institutions. In Britain, the trend for the past few decades years has been for all universities to award their own degrees, for a 2.1 to become an "ordinary pass", and for the difficulty in getting various degree classes to vary wildly between institutions.
The University of Singapore was founded by the British when the old system was still functioning. After independence, Singapore has retained the earlier British tradition. In most ways this is a good thing. In practical terms for you it is a bad thing, because you are awarded a degree that looks like a British degree but has a lower grade attached for a given level of attainment.
The University of Singapore was founded by the British when the old system was still functioning. After independence, Singapore has retained the earlier British tradition. In most ways this is a good thing. In practical terms for you it is a bad thing, because you are awarded a degree that looks like a British degree but has a lower grade attached for a given level of attainment.
Original post by Default_Username
I've heard similar stories of grade deflation for students in Canadian universities as well. Apparently, many of them can't move on to a good post-grad course because of this grading policy. Are there any UK universities that grade on a bell-curve system? In any case, thanks for your input!
No. I think the honours system is required by statute in order to award a degree (well, you can award a degree with no honours at all, but that has become equivalent to a fail). The honours system is notionally standardised via inspections by academics from other universities. But there are two problems: 1. universities are not required to implement any recommendations made by the inspectors 2. the same grade inflation has happened everywhere so there's really nothing to object to.
I think it is part and parcel of 'expanding access'. The vast majority of people are simply not capable of earning an old-style 2.1, but if you don't get a 2.1 then the degree is worthless. So there's immense pressure to make it easy to get 2.1s. Long term, this means degrees are becoming a fairly meaningless checkbox like GCSEs and A levels, rather than something that will guarantee higher income or faster promotion.
Out of interest, do you plan to go into the private sector, or academia?
Original post by Observatory
No. I think the honours system is required by statute in order to award a degree (well, you can award a degree with no honours at all, but that has become equivalent to a fail). The honours system is notionally standardised via inspections by academics from other universities. But there are two problems: 1. universities are not required to implement any recommendations made by the inspectors 2. the same grade inflation has happened everywhere so there's really nothing to object to.
I think it is part and parcel of 'expanding access'. The vast majority of people are simply not capable of earning an old-style 2.1, but if you don't get a 2.1 then the degree is worthless. So there's immense pressure to make it easy to get 2.1s. Long term, this means degrees are becoming a fairly meaningless checkbox like GCSEs and A levels, rather than something that will guarantee higher income or faster promotion.
Out of interest, do you plan to go into the private sector, or academia?
I think it is part and parcel of 'expanding access'. The vast majority of people are simply not capable of earning an old-style 2.1, but if you don't get a 2.1 then the degree is worthless. So there's immense pressure to make it easy to get 2.1s. Long term, this means degrees are becoming a fairly meaningless checkbox like GCSEs and A levels, rather than something that will guarantee higher income or faster promotion.
Out of interest, do you plan to go into the private sector, or academia?
Either academia or international NGOs.
Original post by Observatory
Once upon a time polytechnics (which are/were regarded as the "worst" universities in Britain) awarded University of London external degrees. That is, the degree was the same as one from UCL, ICL, or LSE. The honours classification system worked much as it had originally with 3rds, 2.2s etc. representing a good but not exceptional performance. Since polytechnics had on average the "worst" students, they tended to award very few 1sts and 2.1s - but if you received one, it indicated as high attainment as if you had received it from UCL or one of those other famous institutions. In Britain, the trend for the past few decades years has been for all universities to award their own degrees, for a 2.1 to become an "ordinary pass", and for the difficulty in getting various degree classes to vary wildly between institutions.
The University of Singapore was founded by the British when the old system was still functioning. After independence, Singapore has retained the earlier British tradition. In most ways this is a good thing. In practical terms for you it is a bad thing, because you are awarded a degree that looks like a British degree but has a lower grade attached for a given level of attainment.
The University of Singapore was founded by the British when the old system was still functioning. After independence, Singapore has retained the earlier British tradition. In most ways this is a good thing. In practical terms for you it is a bad thing, because you are awarded a degree that looks like a British degree but has a lower grade attached for a given level of attainment.
How you manage to conflate two completely separate things - institutional autonomy and degree classification - and then use it to justify that an Asian university has higher standards than British polytechnics is beyond me.
Here are a few facts to chew upon: [1] Lots of former polytechnics did not award University of London external degrees, because they delivered courses that were not never taught at universities in the first place; [2] London was not the only federation university. Look at the history of universities in the north west (Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds); [3] Former polytechnics still award further fewer firsts and 2.1s than Russell Group universities; [4] Evidence has shown that prestigious universities, typically at the bottom of the Russell Group and thereabouts, are actually worse for grade inflation than former polytechnics.
Couldn't agree more. I come from a top 15 University and they hand 2:1's out in freshers week. Grade inflation is an absolute joke, no wonder it is so hard to get a job. Every man and his dog has a 2:1 these days. At my University they hand a 2:1 out to people getting 57%! Disgusting, plenty of retards on my course were awarded 2:1 and they know fcuk all about Economics! Even a first was way too easy to achieve, piss easy infact.
Original post by Observatory
Oh dear. I'm sorry to say that you have encountered the educational equivalent of a perfect storm. You are probably receiving a 1940s British Empire-approved quality education, of the sort that used to be offered by the lowliest polytechnic here but now is only rivalled by Oxbridge and a few of the best London universities. Because your country has chosen to keep what works rather than following the metropole into the post-modern abyss, you will receive a lower grade for more work. Because this grade is not reported differently and most people don't know anything about Singapore, it is unlikely you will receive preferential treatment compared to a British graduate with the same classification. It's possible you will be treated worse.
Unless you want to stay in Singapore I would advise you to transfer to Durham as quickly as possible and take the 2.1.
btw, it's not true in general that British degrees do not count the 1st year although it is very common.
Unless you want to stay in Singapore I would advise you to transfer to Durham as quickly as possible and take the 2.1.
btw, it's not true in general that British degrees do not count the 1st year although it is very common.
To answer the OP directly, in most places in the UK, a 2.2 will bar you from studying a Masters. They won't care how rigorous your system is. Worse, even if you get onto a course, you are highly unlikely to get funding. This is likely to be the case for most good universities in the world. So, if you have the finances to move countries (and it always looks good for future prospects to seem a bit internationalised), and you've already got the offer, then why not hop over to the UK and get your easy 2.1?
In a more broad discussion, I enjoyed that one individual in this thread who completely failed to read the part where it was explained the National University of Singapore is objectively ranked more highly than the vast majority of universities in the UK. Only Oxford/Cambridge/UCL/Imperial/Edinburgh beat the NUS. I had a nice chuckle at the unfounded British snobbery in response to the fairly well-founded, albeit unintentional, snobbery of the OP.
Following all the recent negative talk by the government on international students, there is a wonderful sort of irony about the fact that someone is asking for a reason to get easier grades in the supposedly brilliant UK instead of staying at a more prestigious university and getting worse grades. It is an indirect remark on how inflated the grading in the UK has become and the fact that elite education is now getting more and more internationalised.
In a more broad discussion, I enjoyed that one individual in this thread who completely failed to read the part where it was explained the National University of Singapore is objectively ranked more highly than the vast majority of universities in the UK. Only Oxford/Cambridge/UCL/Imperial/Edinburgh beat the NUS. I had a nice chuckle at the unfounded British snobbery in response to the fairly well-founded, albeit unintentional, snobbery of the OP.
Following all the recent negative talk by the government on international students, there is a wonderful sort of irony about the fact that someone is asking for a reason to get easier grades in the supposedly brilliant UK instead of staying at a more prestigious university and getting worse grades. It is an indirect remark on how inflated the grading in the UK has become and the fact that elite education is now getting more and more internationalised.
I doubt you will find many academics who rate Edinburgh over NUS, most would probably put it in the imperial/LSE/UCL tier (which is where it generally ends up in world reputation-based rankings)
Thats one of the problems which the OP is going to face - I think that a degree from Durham is likely to be seen as less prestigious than one from NUS, particularly outside the UK where Durham isn't very well known. So it depends on what you are going to do afterwards. If your plan is to apply for postgraduate degrees in America (for example) you might be better off with the NUS degree. But I don't know for certain - it would depend on how it converts to GPA, and so on. But if you are British and intend to move back to the UK, the Durham degree may be seen as equally good.
for reference:
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2012/10/25/world/asia/25iht-sreducemerging25-graphic.html (reptuation ranking by employers)
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2013/reputation-ranking (reputation ranking by academics)
edit: if I was in the OPs position and applying for UK university master programs with the NUS degree, I would leave the 2:2 off my CV and just give the percentage score or (even better) your rank within the year.
Thats one of the problems which the OP is going to face - I think that a degree from Durham is likely to be seen as less prestigious than one from NUS, particularly outside the UK where Durham isn't very well known. So it depends on what you are going to do afterwards. If your plan is to apply for postgraduate degrees in America (for example) you might be better off with the NUS degree. But I don't know for certain - it would depend on how it converts to GPA, and so on. But if you are British and intend to move back to the UK, the Durham degree may be seen as equally good.
for reference:
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2012/10/25/world/asia/25iht-sreducemerging25-graphic.html (reptuation ranking by employers)
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2013/reputation-ranking (reputation ranking by academics)
edit: if I was in the OPs position and applying for UK university master programs with the NUS degree, I would leave the 2:2 off my CV and just give the percentage score or (even better) your rank within the year.
(edited 10 years ago)
I don't think a Durham degree is substantially different from an NUS degree. A 2.1 is substantially different from a 2.2
This would not be such a problem if Singapore called a 2.2 something else. Unfortunately it doesn't. This will cause confusion. This confusion will hurt you.
The NUS degree is only better if you intend to stay in Singapore permanently.
This would not be such a problem if Singapore called a 2.2 something else. Unfortunately it doesn't. This will cause confusion. This confusion will hurt you.
The NUS degree is only better if you intend to stay in Singapore permanently.
With all due respect to everyone who has replied so far, the OP has not mentioned what subject they actually study. I could not therefore think of a more pointless task than trying to compare the international reputation of Durham, or any other British university, and the National University of Singapore, whose reputation is not universally known (e.g. they are non-existent as far as arts, humanities and social sciences are concerned). More information is needed to keep things in perspective.
Original post by evantej
With all due respect to everyone who has replied so far, the OP has not mentioned what subject they actually study. I could not therefore think of a more pointless task than trying to compare the international reputation of Durham, or any other British university, and the National University of Singapore, whose reputation is not universally known (e.g. they are non-existent as far as arts, humanities and social sciences are concerned). More information is needed to keep things in perspective.
I'm currently studying Philosophy but if I were to transfer into Durham, I'll be studying Philosophy and Politics. Well, even if I were to study a Science subject (or any other subject for that matter) over here, the fact remains that a 2:1 would be hard to achieve (the 20-30% "2:1" statistic is the norm across the board).
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