QTS Tests : Knock on effect for Students/Parents

Whether it is fair or not is by the by. It is a government requirement and neither you not I can do anything about it.

Rather, is it right and fair that people be allowed to teach without a good standard of literacy and numeracy? You might say that it doesn't matter if you are teaching 5 year olds; I would vehemently contradict you if you did.

Looking at my child's report full of inaccuracies (could of and its for it is - to name but two) indicates that too many are slipping through the net as it is.

It does matter that the standard of spoken and written English is declining. It does matter that our children are being failed by teachers who should know better.

But every student taking GCSEs or A levels faces time constraints - why shouldn't prospective teachers?

PS - it's affect not effect

Put the QTS question to one side for the moment and focus on the unpalatable truth.These people are failing tests that, as graduates, they should find easy. It is of concern.

How many times should a prospective teacher be allowed to take the skills test? Surely three times is ample. Failure to pass for the third time indicates, to me, that they are in the wrong job.

Yes, the two year lock-out thing should definitely be taken off.

My Friend failed 3 times and is now banned, its completely not fair!

These tests create very big problems for students who wish to pursue a career in teaching and as a trainee teacher myself, I agree with you guys! The amount of stress for these tests is unbelievable on top of all the A-Level exams and everything else.

Two years is a VERY long time, it should be taken off or changed to something more suitable.

However, I also agree with the other side of this argument.

So, I think to make it fair the two year ban should be changed to something shorter.
This will enable the candidates to revise for the tests and apply again.

Hmmmm, very confusing situation!

Yes, the two year lock-out thing should definitely be taken off.

My Friend failed 3 times and is now banned, its completely not fair!

These tests create very big problems for students who wish to pursue a career in teaching and as a trainee teacher myself, I agree with you guys! The amount of stress for these tests is unbelievable on top of all the A-Level exams and everything else.

Two years is a VERY long time, it should be taken off or changed to something more suitable.

However, I also agree with the other side of this argument.

So, I think to make it fair the two year ban should be changed to something shorter.
This will enable the candidates to revise for the tests and apply again.

Hmmmm, very confusing situation!

Have you actually sat these skills tests?? (Just curious as you seem to "know what you are talkng about)
What if your children/grandchildren were being taught by a teacher who qualified in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland, where QTS(skills tests)don't exist.....would you want them to teach them??? Because this is where Gove contradicts himself regarding QTS!

I personally would argue that the problem is these tests are not representative of someones ability or knowledge in maths and english.

Particularly with maths in the UK we have a big problem with maths anxiety. People have been taught for a long time not to understand maths but to follow an algorithm blindly. The cycle continued with teachers not understanding the maths they themselves were teaching to pupils. Many pupils, particularly it seems those of around 30 years of age, unfortunately had absolutely horrific experiences of maths in school... being told they were awful and stupid, would never get it, given endless workbooks with nothing explained and told they were failures just because they didn't get the one method the teacher had told them to learn by rote.

This is a problem the government is well aware of - they know that maths teaching in the UK has had many issues.

Now these people have grown up to be quite literally terrified of maths. Imagine something you are afraid of the the point of a phobia (affects your day to day life) because of the way you were treated in school. Now imagine someone says you have to sit and do something related to it, at a super speed, with little support from peers (as the tests are now sat pre-ITT) and if you get it wrong 3 times you have the dream career you've worked towards your whole life snatched away from you. How would you feel? Do you really think it's not going to affect people's performance?

I have seen how people who had this huge anxiety about maths have come, through the support of tutors at my uni, friends going through the same and optional sessions which actually tried to help them UNDERSTAND the maths and how it works, and welcomed mistakes as a means through which to learn, were brought to a point where they were actually proud of their maths ability, passed tests with flying colours and for the first time in their life actually realised they could DO MATHS. I can honestly say I'd be overjoyed for any one of them to teach my children... OK, they may need to look something up or ask a colleague a little more often than someone who has always been confident with maths, but they also have a huge amount of empathy for pupils who have maths anxiety because they have overcome it themselves, and will hopefully be a huge part of the solution to it, plus a great understanding of the need to find different methods which suit each child's way of thinking.

As a mathematician and an (admittedly very new!) teacher, I honestly believe that everyone can do maths. But maths anxiety is such a big, self-perpetuating problem in England that so many people think they can't. I completely agree with you that good maths and literacy skills are very important for all teachers, I find it chronically unfair that instead of supporting people failed by a system to become more confident the government simply fills them with dread and subjects them to a process which is likely to massively hinder their confidence further, and make people who have the necessary maths skills lose out on a job which they would be excellent at.

This is just my view of course; please don't feel I'm having a go at you as I fully support your right to hold and express your opinions. I just urge you to remember that these tests are by no means a foolproof indicator of mathematical or literary ability.

Btw if you're interested you might want to read more about maths anxiety, there is plenty on google. I recommend anything by Derek Haylock, he gave us a lecture which really made clear how the anxiety affects people.

xxx

Also Gove is perfectly willing that people without QTS status at all ( though perhaps with specialist skills to offer) should be able to teach in free schools and academies. This seems yet another example of his muddled and contradictory stance on these issues.

Also Gove is perfectly willing that people without QTS status at all ( though perhaps with specialist skills to offer) should be able to teach in free schools and academies. This seems yet another example of his muddled and contradictory stance on these issues.

I personally would argue that the problem is these tests are not representative of someones ability or knowledge in maths and english.

Particularly with maths in the UK we have a big problem with maths anxiety. People have been taught for a long time not to understand maths but to follow an algorithm blindly. The cycle continued with teachers not understanding the maths they themselves were teaching to pupils. Many pupils, particularly it seems those of around 30 years of age, unfortunately had absolutely horrific experiences of maths in school... being told they were awful and stupid, would never get it, given endless workbooks with nothing explained and told they were failures just because they didn't get the one method the teacher had told them to learn by rote.

This is a problem the government is well aware of - they know that maths teaching in the UK has had many issues.

Now these people have grown up to be quite literally terrified of maths. Imagine something you are afraid of the the point of a phobia (affects your day to day life) because of the way you were treated in school. Now imagine someone says you have to sit and do something related to it, at a super speed, with little support from peers (as the tests are now sat pre-ITT) and if you get it wrong 3 times you have the dream career you've worked towards your whole life snatched away from you. How would you feel? Do you really think it's not going to affect people's performance?

I have seen how people who had this huge anxiety about maths have come, through the support of tutors at my uni, friends going through the same and optional sessions which actually tried to help them UNDERSTAND the maths and how it works, and welcomed mistakes as a means through which to learn, were brought to a point where they were actually proud of their maths ability, passed tests with flying colours and for the first time in their life actually realised they could DO MATHS. I can honestly say I'd be overjoyed for any one of them to teach my children... OK, they may need to look something up or ask a colleague a little more often than someone who has always been confident with maths, but they also have a huge amount of empathy for pupils who have maths anxiety because they have overcome it themselves, and will hopefully be a huge part of the solution to it, plus a great understanding of the need to find different methods which suit each child's way of thinking.

As a mathematician and an (admittedly very new!) teacher, I honestly believe that everyone can do maths. But maths anxiety is such a big, self-perpetuating problem in England that so many people think they can't. I completely agree with you that good maths and literacy skills are very important for all teachers, I find it chronically unfair that instead of supporting people failed by a system to become more confident the government simply fills them with dread and subjects them to a process which is likely to massively hinder their confidence further, and make people who have the necessary maths skills lose out on a job which they would be excellent at.

This is just my view of course; please don't feel I'm having a go at you as I fully support your right to hold and express your opinions. I just urge you to remember that these tests are by no means a foolproof indicator of mathematical or literary ability.

Btw if you're interested you might want to read more about maths anxiety, there is plenty on google. I recommend anything by Derek Haylock, he gave us a lecture which really made clear how the anxiety affects people.

xxx

On reading information today about QTS, it appears that teachers who have trained outside of the EU, can come to England and teach for up to four years without having to gain QTS........discrimination against students who trained in England again comes to mind!! What about the recently trained teachers in England who are still awaiting gaining QTS, could they not teach for the two year lock out period?? Seems only fair!!

Have you actually sat these skills tests?? (Just curious as you seem to "know what you are talkng about)
What if your children/grandchildren were being taught by a teacher who qualified in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland, where QTS(skills tests)don't exist.....would you want them to teach them??? Because this is where Gove contradicts himself regarding QTS!

But not 18 seconds, per question.

There are some very valid points on both of these forums. The whole issue of these skills tests is contradictory. Whilst you say if they fail these tests then you don't want them teaching your children and grandchildren, it is only in England that they have to sit these tests. In NI, Scotland & Wales they do not however, they can come to England and teach in our schools, in England without them students can teach in Academies and Independent Schools. So unless you were privy to that information, you wouldn't know who was teaching your children. If students have the entrance criteria i.e required GCSE & A levels/degrees and are then successful in the interview process why do they still have to sit these tests?

Who can say that a 1 mark pass on a computerised test makes that teacher a better teacher than the one who failed by one mark.

It is also the timed nature and that you can't stop the clock ticking - plenty would struggle.

I'm not terribly familiar with the tests, but is it not 48 minutes for 28 questions? Is there a separate time constraint of 3.6 minutes for the mental arithmetic?




Firstly, the fact that people from other parts of the UK can teach without them is not a valid criticism. Parliament has no control over the countries other than England with regards to education, and saying that someone qualified in another country hasn't qualified properly is a ridiculous plan - it would mean re-training everyone not trained in England before they teach here and is horribly impractical. Furthermore, the argument 'other people aren't doing it' is a terrible argument that simply doesn't prove it's a bad idea. If a misbehaving child used that excuse, I hope you'd have none of it. The fact that Gove's plans are muddled and contradictory doesn't mean that part of them are wrong.

Secondly, pass boundaries and time pressure are aspects of all tests. All children are expected to undergo testing in similar conditions.

Firstly, thank you for correcting my typo - I have no letters left on my keyboard - it was a failure to proofread properly. Lesson learned.

Why are the literacy and numeracy tests compulsory in England but not NI, Wales and Scotland? No idea. Take it up with Michael Gove but don't expect an answer from the repulsive little man. Are there no Scottish etc. teachers who can tell us?

Why are teachers in academies not expected to have passed these tests? They're cheaper - that's why.

But....given that these tests do exist in England, they have to be passed to be able to qualify. The real question is why are so many failing?

I'm glad someone else tried the tests and found them easy. I passed the numeracy - just, admittedly, but that was with no preparation whatsoever and years after having had to use percentages on a regular basis . The literacy was ridiculously easy and should have been well within the grasp of any graduate.

Several here are upset because their friends or daughters have failed and it seems unfair. Does a mark on the wrong side of the divide mean they won't be good teachers? No, but it does mean that they have an insufficient grasp of the language to be able to correct their pupils' errors and thus the mistakes continue.

Ask yourselves, if your offspring weren't involved and you received a school report riddled with SPaG errors, would you be as complacent? Would you really be saying it doesn't matter, I'm sure Miss X is a good teacher? Bet you wouldn't - bet you'd be thinking if Miss X can't spell, or write a grammatically correct sentence, how is she going to help my child to be fluent in the language?

Ask any employer about the current standard of written English. They'll tell you it is woefully inadequate. Is that what you really want - for it to continue just because your daughters have set their hearts on being teachers but can't pass a simple test? Sorry, but you are blinkered.