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QTS Tests : Knock on effect for Students/Parents

OP

Yeah, I'll be honest it'd cost quite a lot. I'm sure if you've bought a house you're aware of legal fees and this would take many more hours than a conveyancing. Your best chance may be to try and launch an action together with the help of your daughter's union, who will have either their own legal team or external lawyers on a retainer.

Cheers for that Roh, I will pass that advice onto her - I appreciate it.

Reply 81

Emily115

14

Original post by Blue54

Good for you Emily, I'm know the majority of students do try and keep up to date with all things related, as well as holding down jobs. I'm also sure my daughter will be fine, it's just getting over this hurdle. My daughter is an intelligent young woman, gained her GCSE's, progressed to college as she was unsure as to which career path she wanted to take. In college achieved further qualifications in Sociology, Psychology, & Child Development. Worked part time and paid to complete Basic, then Intermediate Counselling Skills ( she was unable to complete the Advanced course as she was too young at the time and it was very expensive) Then started work in a primary school supporting a young girl with hearing difficulties and other complex issues. Then in an inner city secondary school supporting visually impaired students and others with complex SEN. Whilst working full time, she completed Level 1 and Level 2 British Sign Language, which she paid for herself. And then 1st year Braille.

I'm putting all this on this post Emily because people who are failing these tests are not doing so because they are unintelligent, as some posts seem to imply. xxxx

Exactly. All this 'in the wrong job/shouldn't be in a classroom' rubbish is ridiculous. Surely the fact that people who already have qualifications are having trouble with them suggests that there's something wrong. I guess we'll have to wait & see what happens

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Reply 82

Blue54

OP

3

Original post by CW88

I suspect for legal reasons this would be difficult . I haven't researched EU law in quite a while but as a requirement of the freedom of movement of workers that EU qualifications for professionals be recognised across the EU imposing another test for EU nationals who haven't trained here would probably be classed as discrimination and against EU rules.

Hi CW88,

Yes you are quite correct in your post, I have been to see my MP this evening and she has said the same word for word. xx

Reply 83

roh

17

Original post by Blue54

Good for you Emily, I'm know the majority of students do try and keep up to date with all things related, as well as holding down jobs. I'm also sure my daughter will be fine, it's just getting over this hurdle. My daughter is an intelligent young woman, gained her GCSE's, progressed to college as she was unsure as to which career path she wanted to take. In college achieved further qualifications in Sociology, Psychology, & Child Development. Worked part time and paid to complete Basic, then Intermediate Counselling Skills ( she was unable to complete the Advanced course as she was too young at the time and it was very expensive) Then started work in a primary school supporting a young girl with hearing difficulties and other complex issues. Then in an inner city secondary school supporting visually impaired students and others with complex SEN. Whilst working full time, she completed Level 1 and Level 2 British Sign Language, which she paid for herself. And then 1st year Braille.

I'm putting all this on this post Emily because people who are failing these tests are not doing so because they are unintelligent, as some posts seem to imply. xxxx

I suspect part of the problem is the tests are assuming that applicants have come through the standard route of GCSE>A Level>Russell Group university, as that's the route the civil servants (30 odd percent Oxbridge) themselves will have taken going by FS stats. This means those who came more unconventional routes find it more difficult, as they haven't been practising these skills in every aspect of their work since GCSE.

Reply 84

anniel4

Just curious here...... I wonder will Gove make his "Troops To Teachers" gain QTS?? or will they get to teach for four years without it?

Reply 85

Blue54

OP

3

Original post by fragrantrose

Firstly, thank you for correcting my typo - I have no letters left on my keyboard - it was a failure to proofread properly. Lesson learned.

Why are the literacy and numeracy tests compulsory in England but not NI, Wales and Scotland? No idea. Take it up with Michael Gove but don't expect an answer from the repulsive little man. Are there no Scottish etc. teachers who can tell us?

Why are teachers in academies not expected to have passed these tests? They're cheaper - that's why.

But....given that these tests do exist in England, they have to be passed to be able to qualify. The real question is why are so many failing?

I'm glad someone else tried the tests and found them easy. I passed the numeracy - just, admittedly, but that was with no preparation whatsoever and years after having had to use percentages on a regular basis . The literacy was ridiculously easy and should have been well within the grasp of any graduate.

Several here are upset because their friends or daughters have failed and it seems unfair. Does a mark on the wrong side of the divide mean they won't be good teachers? No, but it does mean that they have an insufficient grasp of the language to be able to correct their pupils' errors and thus the mistakes continue.

Ask yourselves, if your offspring weren't involved and you received a school report riddled with SPaG errors, would you be as complacent? Would you really be saying it doesn't matter, I'm sure Miss X is a good teacher? Bet you wouldn't - bet you'd be thinking if Miss X can't spell, or write a grammatically correct sentence, how is she going to help my child to be fluent in the language?

Ask any employer about the current standard of written English. They'll tell you it is woefully inadequate. Is that what you really want - for it to continue just because your daughters have set their hearts on being teachers but can't pass a simple test? Sorry, but you are blinkered.

Hi Fragrantrose

1. We have no idea either and that is why he is being asked, via our own MP's.

2. Because it is cheaper for Academies,and Free schools - does that make it right? The same children that attend Academies and Free schools attend State schools

3. If they pass by 1 mark - is that really proof that they have what you would say sufficient grasp of the language - honestly?

4. And no I wouldn't ignore spelling mistakes - in fact my son is now 30 years old, when he was in 1st year Juniors, on one of his parents evening, I was reading one of his exercise books, I noticed that he had 3 spelling mistakes in his work but, his work had been ticked along with the comment well done. I pointed this out to his teacher and I was told, they didn't correct them, it was more important that they understood.

5. It is not about the test being a simple test. As I have put on another post, my daughter is an intelligent young woman. And I am certainly not blinkered I can assure you.

I have also raised the issue of Y11's and their GCSE's. For the goal posts to be moved so far into the students course is nothing short of disgraceful, absolutely wrong on so many levels. And to be with them students on results day was so upsetting, and the knock on effect for them is awful.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 86

Blue54

OP

3

Original post by roh

I suspect part of the problem is the tests are assuming that applicants have come through the standard route of GCSE>A Level>Russell Group university, as that's the route the civil servants (30 odd percent Oxbridge) themselves will have taken going by FS stats. This means those who came more unconventional routes find it more difficult, as they haven't been practising these skills in every aspect of their work since GCSE.

That's another great shout roh

Reply 87

Blue54

OP

3

Original post by Emily115

Exactly. All this 'in the wrong job/shouldn't be in a classroom' rubbish is ridiculous. Surely the fact that people who already have qualifications are having trouble with them suggests that there's something wrong. I guess we'll have to wait & see what happens

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Also Emily There is no evidence yet that teaching standards have improved..

Reply 88

Blue54

OP

3

Hi Airfairy

Just to keep you up to date as you asked, we went to see our MP. She has told me that she has already written to Gove following up my email of points that we had collated. She spoke to my daughter in great length. She did say that she had written to us both, and in fairness to her when we arrived home the letters were there. She said she is going to check the House of Commons library for interpretations of the points we had raised. She did say we had very valid points, the only one there would be no point in raising would be the discrimination. She said even if he wanted to he couldn't change it due to the EU agreements, we could go down the legal route but, it is a lengthy and expensive process, and we wouldn't get a positive outcome as it would mean all the EU agreements would have to be changed..

She said we will await the answers to our questions and then arrange to meet up again.

I'll keep you up to date on this one airfairy, take care xx

Reply 89

juneat4

Original post by Geordie1944

I intend no personal disrespect to anyone, and I write this knowing that I will get my head in my hands to play with, but some of the contributors to this thread need a reality check.

If you can't pass the numeracy and literacy tests at the third attempt, never mind the first or second, then you have no business being in a classroom. The standard of both these tests is well within the scope of a 16 year old GCSE student, and an intelligent graduate should have no problems with either of them.

The fact that people are expecting to fail these tests repeatedly but still achieve QTS explains a lot about what is wrong with our educational system.

And just for the record, I am a lifelong libertarian socialist, a proponent of state education who taught in comprehensive schools for thirty years and now work as a principal examiner, team leader and assistant examiner for three examination boards, so I know what I am talking about.

Parents have a right to expect their children to be taught by people with sound numeracy and literacy skills whatever the actual subject being taught. And no matter how passionate, well-meaning and committed to the idea of teaching someone may be, if they fail these tests repeatedly then I don't want them teaching my children and grandchildren.

With the greatest of respect, I don't believe you fully understand what you are talking about!

You suggest in your comment that ‘people expect to fail these tests repeatedly ….’ I don’t believe anyone in their right mind would go into these tests without hope of success!

As a Computer Scientist with a 1st class degree, and a recent recommendation for a BCS scholarship, which I can assure you was no easy process to get, (and having passed the Uni math equivalency exam), I have no issues with literacy or numeracy. My issue is with being put under pressure because of an 18 second time limit in mental math for (yes I agree, very easy questions), but knowing what was at stake made it even harder; sitting in a booth with hardly room to place your white board, knowing CCTV cameras are on you, doesn't help the nerves to boot, and my nerves got to me.

I have no issues with these tests, but I feel the numeracy mental math under such timed conditions is unfair and certainly doesn't test one's numeracy skills, rather it tests their nerves, as I have discovered.

I would emplore you to fully understand the conditions under which, at least the numeracy skills are set. If I was allowed to deal with the mental math the same way I was able to deal with the spelling in the literacy, I would have passed without issue. Having failed by 2 marks has put an end to my teaching path.

I hope you will understand that your comments, actually, are disparaging to those on these forums who are in similar situations to mine and would appreciate your response.

Reply 90

myblueheaven339

19

Original post by Emily115

That's not what I'm trying to say.. I've already said in a previous post that I agree with there being tests.
I want to be a teacher, therefore I sat them (and passed first time). I'm not complaining about them because I've failed them, I'm commenting because I don't think they're just testing people's 'knowledge'.

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Perhaps. But the same can be said of most exams people ever take. And the same stress issues can affect performance in those too.

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Reply 91

myblueheaven339

19

Original post by Blue54

If you don't have to take them - you can teach?? Especially if you train in NI, Scotland or Wales. If you were attending an interview for a teaching job in a school in England and some of the candidates were from NI, Wales or Scotland. One of them gets the job, after you had been nervous and had struggled to do these tests, they hadn't even had to do them, how would you honestly feel? Because at this point they can teach and you can't.

At the end of the day, if you want to teach you know the requirements you have to pass. It's not worth bleating on about someone else not having to do the tests or feeling hard done by because you think they've had it easier. If you don't want to do the tests why not apply for instructor roles and get paid less? If you lose out on a position, you should be more concerned with your own teaching ability than whether or not other candidates had to take the QTS tests. If people really want to teach, they may as well get used to jumping through hoops from the beginning.

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Reply 92

Sunshinegirl:)

Original post by Blue54

If you don't have to take them - you can teach?? Especially if you train in NI, Scotland or Wales. If you were attending an interview for a teaching job in a school in England and some of the candidates were from NI, Wales or Scotland. One of them gets the job, after you had been nervous and had struggled to do these tests, they hadn't even had to do them, how would you honestly feel? Because at this point they can teach and you can't.

This kind of annoyed me as you're making out its easier to teach if you're not in England and that's just wrong. I'm going to uni in Wales but I still passed my qts exams because my second choice was a uni in England. I feel everyone's kinda making a big deal out of nothing here. To get into uni in Wales you still have to do an entrance exam at the uni which to be honest was probably harder than the qts exam. The qts exam is only set out to ensure you have the knowledge of the core subjects to be able to deliver the content. If you haven't passed maybe you need to go back to sixth form or college and get your maths and English up a little. It's not the government being mean but we're gonna need higher than the standard required by qts to be able to teach. You can't teach something if you don't know it yourself.

Op - Good luck in taking your qts though , I'm sure that you'll pass the next time !! Just write down as much as you need on the whiteboard and take your time reading questions. Cliche but it worked for me. Good luck !

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Reply 93

masamune1989

I don't understand why everyone is saying the reason people fail the maths test is the 18 sec time limit.. 18 seconds is ludicrous I agree, but lets not forget you can reach the 63% pass mark as long as you pass one mental question and get the rest of the test correct. As an NQT myself I fully understand the frustrations people have about failing these tests and not being able to re-take for two years, it was unfair that last years cohort (including myself) had the limitation imposed during our course but at the same time, those who wanted to take the pgce knew about the tests before the course, so did have time to practise.

In addition to that, for those who do struggle with maths such as myself, I took advantage of the maths pgce students and teachers in placement school to learn the skills for the test and didn't pay a penny.

I completely agree that 2 attempts for last year shouldn't have been the case as when we applied it hadn't been announced but to be fair, I said the whole "well I teach history, why do I need to pass this maths test" and yet here in my first week I've had to make loads of graphs on pupil data - most of which were on that damn test. I have written to my MP as well as I knew 3 friends from the pgce who failed their last attempt in July and therefore were not awarded qts and wish you luck in your legal pursuit.

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Reply 94

Blue54

OP

3

Original post by myblueheaven339

At the end of the day, if you want to teach you know the requirements you have to pass. It's not worth bleating on about someone else not having to do the tests or feeling hard done by because you think they've had it easier. If you don't want to do the tests why not apply for instructor roles and get paid less? If you lose out on a position, you should be more concerned with your own teaching ability than whether or not other candidates had to take the QTS tests. If people really want to teach, they may as well get used to jumping through hoops from the beginning.

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Morning myblueheaven,

Once again you are entitled to your opinion, but I'm agreeing to disagree on this one. My opinion is that this whole issue is worth bleating on about, one I hope you or anyone of yours will never find themselves having to deal with. Believe me it isn't nice..

Reply 95

myblueheaven339

19

Original post by Blue54

Morning myblueheaven,

Once again you are entitled to your opinion, but I'm agreeing to disagree on this one. My opinion is that this whole issue is worth bleating on about, one I hope you or anyone of yours will never find themselves having to deal with. Believe me it isn't nice..

Well I hope that it all works out for you, and that you achieve what you are aiming for.

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Reply 96

kpwxx

20

Original post by Sunshinegirl:)

The qts exam is only set out to ensure you have the knowledge of the core subjects to be able to deliver the content.

Remember that the qts tests are nothing to do with teaching maths and English, they're about skills you need for other parts of the teaching role.

Many unis over here do entrance tests too, particularly for primary, and if you teach any maths and English they also have to ensure you have that subject knowledge during your training as part of meeting the teaching standards. My uni for example had maths and English assignments, as well as maths and English audits. They based then around what you need to teach though, as well as focusing on understanding in maths so you actually had to understand thes ideas and processes.

I can see how some of the posts here might have frustrated you. I think what people were trying to say was not "they don't have to take the tests, they don't need this standard, it's not fair!!", rather, they were trying to ask why the government thinks it's acceptable to employ teachers without the test in England (so recognise them as good teachers) yet with the same breath claim of you trained a little to the East or South you can't be a good teacher without it. Similar to how they claim to want to raise the professional status of teachers but in the same breath make us look bad to the public and say some schools can employ people with no teaching qualifications whatsoever.

_______

Some people seem to be saying things along the lines of "Other assessments are timed/have this format so why shouldn't this one?". This only really works if you have a good reason why the other tests you refer to should be timed. I personally place more faith in the judgement of someone who sees a child day in day out than a single question and answer test. Obviously there are issues here when it comes to qualifications like gcses, ensuring consistency across a whole country. But with the qts tests I feel it would be more realistic, more of a real test and a better use of money for trainees to just have to analyse/ present some data on placement (also meeting part of the assessment teaching standard) and to conduct a few organisational tasks using maths. And to have evidence recorded of their ability to use correct spag in the classroom (they have to do stuff like write essays and reports and make displays anyway). I think this is both a better judgement of their ability and fits better with training. They could even have included an extra point in the teaching standards of good professional maths and English skills then all providers would have needed evidence of this. We trust universities to deliver high enough standards of actual teaching, using good strategies and sound theory yet don't trust them to make sure a teacher can do simple maths and English tasks? That just doesn't make sense to me.

Xxx

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(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 97

anniel4

Original post by Blue54

Hi Fragrantrose

1. We have no idea either and that is why he is being asked, via our own MP's.

2. Because it is cheaper for Academies,and Free schools - does that make it right? The same children that attend Academies and Free schools attend State schools

3. If they pass by 1 mark - is that really proof that they have what you would say sufficient grasp of the language - honestly?

4. And no I wouldn't ignore spelling mistakes - in fact my son is now 30 years old, when he was in 1st year Juniors, on one of his parents evening, I was reading one of his exercise books, I noticed that he had 3 spelling mistakes in his work but, his work had been ticked along with the comment well done. I pointed this out to his teacher and I was told, they didn't correct them, it was more important that they understood.

5. It is not about the test being a simple test. As I have put on another post, my daughter is an intelligent young woman. And I am certainly not blinkered I can assure you.

I have also raised the issue of Y11's and their GCSE's. For the goal posts to be moved so far into the students course is nothing short of disgraceful, absolutely wrong on so many levels. And to be with them students on results day was so upsetting, and the knock on effect for them is awful.

I totally agree with Blue 54. When my son was in P4 I remember his teacher had "red ticked" all his homework even though there were several spelling mistakes and when I challenged the teacher as to why he didn't "circle" his words that needed corrected and get him to learn the correct spelling, he said the very same....we don't do that anymore it's more important that the children understand what they are talking about!

Also, my daughter who has completed her teacher training, said that the school she was in placement in last year, did not correct all spelling mistakes because the children are taught using phonics in their writing and if the child was able to use phonics to spell a word, that showed that they understood what was being written so the actual spelling wasn't always important!

Reply 98

lantan

7

Original post by Blue54

Also Emily There is no evidence yet that teaching standards have improved..

Exactly!
Wouldn't that be because the standards of teaching are not going to improve in the test or exam room but where it's natural for them to improve - in the classroom, in teaching practice?
Of course, it would be too expensive to start observing thousands and thousands of teachers to reveal their shortcomings in practice & discuss them but of course it's easier to devise a test (QTS tests) that is meant to "raise" the standards of the trainees coming into profession...

Reply 99

Duppy12

Original post by Blue54

Hi duppy12

Nevertheless they are still reasons why. And if they are so laughably easy/mickey mouse What is the point of them? I think you should have a read of kpw's post from yesterday. xx

Who knows what the point of them are. Maybe it's to highlight how woefully inadequate GCSEs are in regards to teaching basic grammar and spelling or to show how kids coached through maths exams are unable to do a bit of easy mental arithmetic in the real world. One of the questions on my mental test was pretty much 'what time is it 40 minutes before 12:15'. Insultingly easy and time wasting but as someone else has pointed out the tests are just a hoop to jump through and teaching is full of those. The fact is you can get more than a third of these tests wrong and you're deemed to have good enough English and maths skills. Anyone taking these tests should be aiming at getting 100%. All the complaints about 1 or 2 marks off passing still means these people are barely scraping more than 50%.

I don't want to sound too harsh but either you or the other parent have blamed numerous things such as not enough attempts, not enough time, stressful conditions, discrimination, the test not functioning properly, Pearson for being corporate money grabbers etc. The fact is the majority of people taking these tests pass so perhaps you need to lay some of the blame on your own children too.

QTS Tests : Knock on effect for Students/Parents

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