The Student Room Group

Should the English language undergo a spelling reform?

Scroll to see replies

Original post by AllanJC
It would hav been an even bigger pain if we hadnt changed from Roman numerals!

As well as that, we moved from hieroglyfs and cuneiform to an alfabet. U mite hav not been so competent in ritten language if we hadnt.

Lets continue the change, to help the less literat.


So we change something until everyone can manage it? Like I said before, we don't dumb down computers until all 60 year olds can use them with ease. Also it's not exactly practical to simply change language. It changes over time on its own, but forcing change is pretty difficult.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by the bear
i did not shirk at school; as a result i am able to communicate clearly and effectively. if only today's young people would follow my example.


Missed the lesson on capitalisation though?

It's quite a callous remark though, some people genuinely do find it very hard, for whatever reason. Yes, there are plenty who simply do not put any effort in, but should they be punished their whole lives because of it? As I've said before, writing is about communication. It is just as important to be able to communicate with those who struggled or were lazy in school as it is with anyone else.

Your comment, as so many others, also betrays a certain self-righteous elitism. We know full well how much easier life is for those who can read and write properly, but we worked hard in school and are clever or whatever so we deserve our advantage over those less well educated than ourselves. Our bizarre system of spelling is a hurdle many never quite clear, and it is an entirely artificial and unnecessary one which exists for historical reasons and is perpetuated by those lucky few who never found it that difficult to begin with.

I see nothing wrong with elitism in its proper place, but I have a mind to be very egalitarian on this issue. If we can improve such essential life skills as the ability to read and write for millions of people at a stroke then clearly we should.

Original post by Converse Rocker
So we change something until everyone can manage it? Like I said before, we don't dumb down computers until all 60 year olds can use them with ease. Also it's not exactly practical to simply change language. It changes over time on its own, but forcing change is pretty difficult.


Why ever not? Unlike many other things, writing is not intended to be the preserve of the well educated, but a universal tool of communication, so what advantages have we in a system not everyone is able to use?
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Converse Rocker
So we change something until everyone can manage it? Like I said before, we don't dumb down computers until all 60 year olds can use them with ease. Also it's not exactly practical to simply change language. It changes over time on its own, but forcing change is pretty difficult.


We usually mend broken things, and English spelling needs mainly just repairing or undoing some of the damage inflicted on it by succession of scribes, printers and compilers of dictionaries who did not give any thought to consistency (shoddy body) or ease of learning. (U can learn more about this in the History post on my EnglishSpelling blog.)

Secondly, no spelling reformer is suggesting any language change merely making English spelling more sensible, so that learning to read and write the language becomes easier. When in 1929 Turkey adopted the drastic spelling reform of switching from the Arabic to the Roman script, the Turkish language was not changed in any way only the way it is written.
Original post by Converse Rocker
So we change something until everyone can manage it? Like I said before, we don't dumb down computers until all 60 year olds can use them with ease. Also it's not exactly practical to simply change language. It changes over time on its own, but forcing change is pretty difficult.

PS Computers were made much easier to use with the introduction of Windows and led the current widespread use of them. The old DOS system was much too difficult for most people and very few used them before the arrival of Windows.
Reply 104
Original post by Converse Rocker
So we change something until everyone can manage it? Like I said before, we don't dumb down computers until all 60 year olds can use them with ease. Also it's not exactly practical to simply change language. It changes over time on its own, but forcing change is pretty difficult.


It may not be practical for language, but it is for spelling.
Reply 105
Original post by spellmender
PS Computers were made much easier to use with the introduction of Windows and led the current widespread use of them. The old DOS system was much too difficult for most people and very few used them before the arrival of Windows.


And still we are left with people who are not computer-savvy while the rest of the world moves on to being even more technologically advanced. This is what will happen with spelling reforms - there will still be people who are less literate, while the world raises its standards as more is expected of people, now that spelling is made easier.

Posted from TSR Mobile
Reply 106
Original post by the bear
i did not shirk at school; as a result i am able to communicate clearly and effectively. if only today's young people would follow my example.


Is that a Yes: I shon in all subjects?
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 107
Who's being pedantic?

It has been stated over and over in this discussion that no one is advocating "changing the language". But here u ar basing your arguments on opposition to the idea that the language must not be changed!

Can u not read?
Reply 108
No one here is suggesting we change the language. So why do u keep answering as tho they wer?

And who said I was opposed to it? I haven't said whether I oppose it or support it.... You don't need to support or oppose something to tell whether they have made a crappy point. And that is what I did, i exposed them.


Okay. what crappy point hav we made in advocating upgrading and updating our spelling?
English has always been spoken with a great diversity of accents. English spelling was initially standardised, and hence decoupled from pronunciation, so that one English speaker could read the writing of any other English speaker, regardless of their respective accents. This was necessary in Early Modern England, when the process began--how much more necessary is it now, when English is a global language! English spoken by someone in Calcutta may be extremely difficult to understand for someone in Houston, and vice versa, but they will have no trouble at all understanding what the other one has written. If each spelled phonetically, their writing would look very different indeed and might even be mutually unintelligible. Nor would any new, standardised phonetic update manage to capture the pronunciation of all English speakers. A new standard spelling system based, for example, on the pronunciation of BBC English would be just as disconnected from pronunciation for the majority of English speakers throughout the world as is the current system, and would have the unfortunate effect of erasing the centuries of linguistic history which are preserved in the current standardised spelling of English words. Working as an English teacher to speakers of a very phonetic language, Hebrew, I found that once students understood that English spelling was not arbitrary, but actually preserved an earlier pronunciation, or showed what language it entered English from, or any number of other interesting etymological notes, it actually sparked more interest and let to deeper comprehension.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 110
Original post by Rinsed

Simpler spelling would remove this from being an issue for many people, who would simply find it easier to communicate with the world. If someone struggles with spelling and reading then they will find it harder to educate themselves on other subjects, for instance. Many children find that problems with literacy affects all their other subjects, and some kids just give up out of frustration.


You're putting too much emphasis on perfect spelling recall. Mine is appalling. It's ridiculous and kind of offensive to suggest that those without perfect spelling recall are incapable of reading the words they misspell and of understanding their meaning. Or because of this issue they can't use these words to form a coherent written sentence themselves.
Spelling is actually a small part of literacy. If you saw my posts pre spell checker you'd wince, but to suggest I am illiterate or unable to understand the world or communicate because of this problem is ridiculous and overblown. I struggled with spelling throughout school, yet I was able to achieve high grades in all subjects, including English. You assume this issue is some kind of stumbling block for people, and that if they can't master it or don't find it easy, they never move past square 1.
What you are talking about are people with low IQs. How do you know that simpler spelling is going to help them at all, or to enough of a degree to justify bastardising the entire language? They're still going to have a limited capacity for learning and understanding after reform.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 111
Original post by Ham22
You're putting too much emphasis on perfect spelling recall. Mine is appalling. It's ridiculous and kind of offensive to suggest that those without perfect spelling recall are incapable of reading the words they misspell and of understanding their meaning. Or because of this issue they can't use these words to form a coherent written sentence themselves.

U mention perfect spelling recall. May i refer u to my post #98, in which i quote a comparativ study of English and Italian chiildrens learning skills. It notes that the English, in meeting a new word, tended to use the part of the brain that deals with word retrieval (memory), and the Italians the part that deals with foneme processing, that is, working with the sounds. I know that i, a reasonably good speller, use memory, both of letter sequence and the look of the word, in working with new words. I also know that to be a perfect speller, i'd hav to memorize the dictionary, à la Scripps Spelling Bee winners.

Spelling is actually a small part of literacy. If you saw my posts pre spell checker you'd wince, but to suggest I am illiterate or unable to understand the world or communicate because of this problem is ridiculous and overblown. I struggled with spelling throughout school, yet I was able to achieve high grades in all subjects, including English. You assume this issue is some kind of stumbling block for people, and that if they can't master it or don't find it easy, they never move past square 1.
What you are talking about are people with low IQs. How do you know that simpler spelling is going to help them at all, or to a enough of a degree to justify bastardising the entire language? They're still going to have a limited capacity for learning and understanding after reform.


There is some truth in what u say. However, for a learner spelling is a large part of literacy. If the young student can attack new words in the fashion of the Italians, they can master reading much mor quickly, probably in one year, rather than the two or three it now takes them. Learning to read and rite can become a confidence builder for almost all children, rather than a confidence destroyer, as it now is for many.





There's money in it for anyone who can fulfil the terms of George Bernard Shaw's will:

http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j31/shaw.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet
Original post by John Stuart Mill
The English language contains many irregularities and inconsistencies in respect to phonetics and its relation to spelling, consider the letters 'ough' and how they can be pronounced in so many different ways: (oʊ/ as in “though”, /uː/ as in “through”, /ʌf/ as in “rough”, /ɒf/ as in “cough”, /ɔː/ as in “thought”, /aʊ/ as in “bough”, /ə/ as in “thorough). We only have 26 letters in the alphabet and yet we have to use these to represent more sounds.

For instance, why do we need silent letters? Consider how many words that stem from other languages, such as the word honour differ from phonetics. The American version of the word honour is honor which removes the French influence from the language and thus making it more consistent with phonetics.

The problems in the language derive from its historical context, Old English was pronounced very much as it is written but due to influence from many invaders (Scandinavian, Norman, etc...) and of course the great vowel shift the language began to lose its consistency, it not longer adhered to a strict set of phonetical rules and became much more ambiguous.

The problem with the inconsistencies in the orthography of the language means it is much more difficult to learn (for native people this means we spend much more time in the classroom teaching literacy skills), indeed even literate people often display difficulty spelling words that they are unfamiliar with because of so many variations in the rules. Spelling has become so ambiguous that its lack of adherence to any strict rules means it is nothing more than a memorisation game.

A spelling reform would focus on the consistency between phonetics and spelling, focusing on the orthography of the language to make sure it can meet a strict set of rules rather than having wide variation and ambiguity would increase people's ability to spell and make it easier to spell words we're unfamiliar with.

So, to repeat the question in the title: should the English language undergo a spelling reform?


We should teach IPA in schools and circumvent the problem entirely. An added bonus would be that you'd know how to spell almost any new word you hear instantly.

I'd differ on the diphthong in 'though', by the way. That would be /əʊ/ for me.
Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish
English has always been spoken with a great diversity of accents. English spelling was initially standardised, and hence decoupled from pronunciation, so that one English speaker could read the writing of any other English speaker, regardless of their respective accents. This was neccessary in Early Modern England, when the process began--how much more neccessary is it now, when English is a global language! English spoken by someone in Calcutta may be extremely difficult to understand for someone in Houston, and vice versa, but they will have no trouble at all understanding what the other one has written. If each spelled phonetically, their writing would look very different indeed and might even be mutually unintelligible. Nor would any new, standardised phonetic update manage to capture the pronunciation of all English speakers. A new standard spelling system based, for example, on the pronunciation of BBC English would be just as disconnected from pronunciation for the majority of English speakers throughout the world as is the current system, and would have the unfortunate effect of erasing the centuries of linguistic history which are preserved in the current standardised spelling of English words. Working as an English teacher to speakers of a very phonetic language,Hebrew, I found that once students understood that English spelling was not arbitrary, but actually preserved an earlier pronunciation, or showed what language it entered English from, or any number of other interesting etymological notes, it actually sparked more interest and let to deeper comprehension.


i hope that you did not have to teach them the word NECESSARY :eek:
Original post by Ham22
You're putting too much emphasis on perfect spelling recall.
Spelling is actually a small part of literacy.
What you are talking about are people with low IQs. How do you know that simpler spelling is going to help them at all, or to enough of a degree to justify bastardising the entire language? They're still going to have a limited capacity for learning and understanding after reform.


The ability to read is far more important than being able to spell. Sadly, learning to read English is also more difficult than in all other alphabetically written languages. This is because English is the only alphabetically written language in which many letters or letter strings can have more than one sound (on, only, once ...through, rough, cough...).

Finnish children learn to read in three months or less. English pupils of average ability take three years. I regard this as a more serious educational disadvantage than the long time they need for learning to spell. Poor reading ability makes it very difficult to cope with other subjects. The pupils in the lower half of the ability range who take much longer than three years to become proficient readers, including the 1 in 5 who never do at all, start secondary schooling a long way behind those in the upper half.

Of course pupils with low IQ perform less well in other languages too. But with much less time needed for learning to read, the differences in overall educational achievement between pupils of high and low ability are much smaller. That's why English-speaking countries are famous for their long tails of educational underachievement. Modernising English spelling (not the language) at least enough to make learning to read substantially easier would make an enormous difference to this.

Making English spelling phonically perfect would be challenging, but learning to read it could easily be made much less baffling, by reducing the inconsistencies which impede it most.
Original post by spellmender

Making English spelling phonically perfect would be challenging, but learning to read it could easily be made much less baffling, by reducing the inconsistencies which impede it most.

I have explained which inconsistencies of English spelling impede literacy progress most of all in http://improvingenglishspelling.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/modernising-english-spelling.html
Original post by the bear
i hope that you did not have to teach them the word NECESSARY :eek:


Ouch. Fair play though.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Ham22
You're putting too much emphasis on perfect spelling recall. Mine is appalling. It's ridiculous and kind of offensive to suggest that those without perfect spelling recall are incapable of reading the words they misspell and of understanding their meaning. Or because of this issue they can't use these words to form a coherent written sentence themselves.
Spelling is actually a small part of literacy. If you saw my posts pre spell checker you'd wince, but to suggest I am illiterate or unable to understand the world or communicate because of this problem is ridiculous and overblown. I struggled with spelling throughout school, yet I was able to achieve high grades in all subjects, including English. You assume this issue is some kind of stumbling block for people, and that if they can't master it or don't find it easy, they never move past square 1.
What you are talking about are people with low IQs. How do you know that simpler spelling is going to help them at all, or to enough of a degree to justify bastardising the entire language? They're still going to have a limited capacity for learning and understanding after reform.


Your are write to note that there are many facets to literacy, but at the end of the day it does all hinge on spelling, which is the fundamental thing that allows us to communicate through the written word. I myself can find my writings littered with spelling errors, and without a spell-checker I would be lost. On the other hand I can read perfectly, and if I see a word spelt on a page I can recognise it instantly, even if it's a word I would never have been able to spell unaided. I expect this is the same for you, but let me assure you it is not true for everyone, and I would not trivialise their struggles by comparing them to my own.

These are usually people who can converse in English perfectly fluently. It is not understanding that is the issue, and I do not believe I have ever suggested so. My contention is that people would have fewer problems associating the words on the page to the words we speak if the way we spelt them more closely resembled the way we say them. This I believe to be born out by evidence, some of which I have already posted. To an extend the idea that we can hardly expect people with a low IQ to be able to read and write properly is a product of our inconsistent and confusing spelling system, which makes learning far harder than need be.
"The European Union commissioners have announced that agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish (Euro for short).

In the first year, 's' will be used instead of the soft 'c'.

Sertainly, sivil servants will resieve this news with joy. Also, the hard 'c' will be replaced with 'k.' Not only will this klear up konfusion, but typewriters kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome 'ph' will be replaced by 'f'. This will make words like 'fotograf' 20 per sent shorter.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is disgrasful, and they would go.

By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing 'th' by 'z' and 'W' by 'V'.

During ze fifz year, ze unesesary 'o' kan be dropd from vords kontaining 'ou', and similar changes vud of kors; be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil b no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer.

Ze drem vil finali kum tru."

Quick Reply

Latest

Trending

Trending