Fee waivers for poor students should be scrapped
Scroll to see replies
I can see this turning into the ema/no ema arguments we have seen thousands of times. While I agree that the fee waivers do little to aid financially until after graduation, when you should be theoretically on a more even footing, it is as some posters have said about increasing the number of poor students that attend university. To those people who's rich parents won't give them any money, I suggest you take it up with your parents. They have chosen not to support you and have had 18 years to save money to do so, I can't see how they can't afford to help.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
As someone who will receive a fee waiver, I don't really see the point of them. It isn't going to do anything to help the financial situation whilst at university, just detract from the universities overall funds. As for getting more poorer students into university that is a problem that needs to be addressed by education not by offering a smaller amount of debt to them.
I think it's true that poorer people are being patronised with fee waiving. That poorer students could do with a bit more money is true. Whilst at university average families can afford to bail out their siblings once in a while whereas the poorest parents cannot. I think there is an argument to be had that once a degree is obtained you are on a level footing with everyone else who also has a degree. Unless anyone can come up with a good argument why a poor persons degree isn't as good as a rich mans degree I don't see why not. Actually getting poor people to the point where their education has been good enough for them to even think about doing a degree is much more important and schemes like outreach probably do more than fee waiving towards getting the worse off into education.
(edited 10 years ago)
The whole system stinks.
I have always found working through a problem crystallises it. So firstly the assumptions using round numbers.
A) family income of > 50k results in a loan of 3.5k p.a.
B) A fully funded student also receiving bursaries will get between 7K and 10K.
C) The 7 to 10k is what is actually required as the government does not fund frivolous spending by students.
D) A household with 2x 25k has significantly more disposable income than a house hold with a homemaker and 1x 50k income due to child benefit and 2 tax free allowances being active and no 40% tax rate being incurred.
Calculate the effective gross income reduction for a family with 2x 25k income and one with 1x50k income if their off-spring is to enjoy the same standard of 'student living' as a student receiving 7k and another receiving 10k.
Then ask yourself whether you would be happy with such a pay cut having got your degrees and one or both of you having worked hard to achieve your household income. Also suggest the things you will economise on to the detriment of your other younger children to support your eldest off-spring. (Those of you yet to start uni or just starting uni might want to factor in the 9% of everything you earn over 21k into the grossing up calculation).
Time for you to put your 'money to be' where your mouth is
Posted from TSR Mobile
I have always found working through a problem crystallises it. So firstly the assumptions using round numbers.
A) family income of > 50k results in a loan of 3.5k p.a.
B) A fully funded student also receiving bursaries will get between 7K and 10K.
C) The 7 to 10k is what is actually required as the government does not fund frivolous spending by students.
D) A household with 2x 25k has significantly more disposable income than a house hold with a homemaker and 1x 50k income due to child benefit and 2 tax free allowances being active and no 40% tax rate being incurred.
Calculate the effective gross income reduction for a family with 2x 25k income and one with 1x50k income if their off-spring is to enjoy the same standard of 'student living' as a student receiving 7k and another receiving 10k.
Then ask yourself whether you would be happy with such a pay cut having got your degrees and one or both of you having worked hard to achieve your household income. Also suggest the things you will economise on to the detriment of your other younger children to support your eldest off-spring. (Those of you yet to start uni or just starting uni might want to factor in the 9% of everything you earn over 21k into the grossing up calculation).
Time for you to put your 'money to be' where your mouth is
Posted from TSR Mobile
I agree with the OP. I'm a student from a poor background and my university helps me with bursaries. I think that since last year, the university changed its bursaries so any new students (not me) will get exactly the same amount of bursary as the older students, but part of that bursary will go towards their tuition fee while the rest will go towards living costs.
I see absolutely no reason for that to happen and I'm glad I'm not one of those students. Like the OP said, the poor students will only need to pay their loans back after they graduate and get a job. The university isn't helping them in any way by contributing towards tuition fees - they're just wasting money.
I see absolutely no reason for that to happen and I'm glad I'm not one of those students. Like the OP said, the poor students will only need to pay their loans back after they graduate and get a job. The university isn't helping them in any way by contributing towards tuition fees - they're just wasting money.
Poorer students are often from families who have no tradition of going to University, and there may be a perception (in some, but not all families) that a debt (including tuition fees) hanging on a person's neck should be discouraged, especially when the families themselves may be finding it hard to make ends meet or in debt.
The whole idea of fee waivers is to attract those from poorer backgrounds to applying to uni with the preconceived ideas that a uni education is "too expensive".
You seem to imply that those of poorer parents do not "work hard" to earn the same salary as your parents. I am sure your parents work hard, but that doesn't always equate with salary. It just means your parents are doing a good job in a well paid sector.
The truth is, if I did not receive any bursaries/grants I would not be able to afford university (I don't personally get fee waivers). There needs to be some sort of support; there are plenty of intelligent poorer students who should not be denied uni because of their parent's income. Some of my friends who have parents with salaries over £50k are still living a similar lifestyle to me, or can afford having their parents bail them out every so often so I would not say I have a better lifestyle. No, student finance is not a perfect system. But we cannot give everyone the same amount of funding, so it makes sense to give people whose parents earn more less funding, in order to enable poorer students to even attend uni.
I personally would not have a problem for my hard-earned money to pay towards my children's uni education. I would not expect the government to pay for everything in the economic situation we are in
The whole idea of fee waivers is to attract those from poorer backgrounds to applying to uni with the preconceived ideas that a uni education is "too expensive".
Original post by evening sunrise
Calculate the effective gross income reduction for a family with 2x 25k income and one with 1x50k income if their off-spring is to enjoy the same standard of 'student living' as a student receiving 7k and another receiving 10k.
Then ask yourself whether you would be happy with such a pay cut having got your degrees and one or both of you having worked hard to achieve your household income. Also suggest the things you will economise on to the detriment of your other younger children to support your eldest off-spring. (Those of you yet to start uni or just starting uni might want to factor in the 9% of everything you earn over 21k into the grossing up calculation).
Posted from TSR Mobile
Calculate the effective gross income reduction for a family with 2x 25k income and one with 1x50k income if their off-spring is to enjoy the same standard of 'student living' as a student receiving 7k and another receiving 10k.
Then ask yourself whether you would be happy with such a pay cut having got your degrees and one or both of you having worked hard to achieve your household income. Also suggest the things you will economise on to the detriment of your other younger children to support your eldest off-spring. (Those of you yet to start uni or just starting uni might want to factor in the 9% of everything you earn over 21k into the grossing up calculation).
Posted from TSR Mobile
You seem to imply that those of poorer parents do not "work hard" to earn the same salary as your parents. I am sure your parents work hard, but that doesn't always equate with salary. It just means your parents are doing a good job in a well paid sector.
The truth is, if I did not receive any bursaries/grants I would not be able to afford university (I don't personally get fee waivers). There needs to be some sort of support; there are plenty of intelligent poorer students who should not be denied uni because of their parent's income. Some of my friends who have parents with salaries over £50k are still living a similar lifestyle to me, or can afford having their parents bail them out every so often so I would not say I have a better lifestyle. No, student finance is not a perfect system. But we cannot give everyone the same amount of funding, so it makes sense to give people whose parents earn more less funding, in order to enable poorer students to even attend uni.
I personally would not have a problem for my hard-earned money to pay towards my children's uni education. I would not expect the government to pay for everything in the economic situation we are in
Original post by SilverstarDJ
Poorer students are often from families who have no tradition of going to University, and there may be a perception (in some, but not all families) that a debt (including tuition fees) hanging on a person's neck should be discouraged, especially when the families themselves may be finding it hard to make ends meet or in debt.
The whole idea of fee waivers is to attract those from poorer backgrounds to applying to uni with the preconceived ideas that a uni education is "too expensive".
You seem to imply that those of poorer parents do not "work hard" to earn the same salary as your parents. I am sure your parents work hard, but that doesn't always equate with salary. It just means your parents are doing a good job in a well paid sector.
The truth is, if I did not receive any bursaries/grants I would not be able to afford university (I don't personally get fee waivers). There needs to be some sort of support; there are plenty of intelligent poorer students who should not be denied uni because of their parent's income. Some of my friends who have parents with salaries over £50k are still living a similar lifestyle to me, or can afford having their parents bail them out every so often so I would not say I have a better lifestyle. No, student finance is not a perfect system. But we cannot give everyone the same amount of funding, so it makes sense to give people whose parents earn more less funding, in order to enable poorer students to even attend uni.
I personally would not have a problem for my hard-earned money to pay towards my children's uni education. I would not expect the government to pay for everything in the economic situation we are in
The whole idea of fee waivers is to attract those from poorer backgrounds to applying to uni with the preconceived ideas that a uni education is "too expensive".
You seem to imply that those of poorer parents do not "work hard" to earn the same salary as your parents. I am sure your parents work hard, but that doesn't always equate with salary. It just means your parents are doing a good job in a well paid sector.
The truth is, if I did not receive any bursaries/grants I would not be able to afford university (I don't personally get fee waivers). There needs to be some sort of support; there are plenty of intelligent poorer students who should not be denied uni because of their parent's income. Some of my friends who have parents with salaries over £50k are still living a similar lifestyle to me, or can afford having their parents bail them out every so often so I would not say I have a better lifestyle. No, student finance is not a perfect system. But we cannot give everyone the same amount of funding, so it makes sense to give people whose parents earn more less funding, in order to enable poorer students to even attend uni.
I personally would not have a problem for my hard-earned money to pay towards my children's uni education. I would not expect the government to pay for everything in the economic situation we are in
Would you not agree that bursaries and educating people on the system is better than fee waivers?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Thats the point, those bursuries are there so that kids who parants cant afford to give them 80 quid a week including rent fees ect... can still have the same expereience at uni as the richer kids do. Ive had to apply to uni's that are within commuting distance because my parants can't afford to let me stay away from home.
Original post by Sheldor
Would you not agree that bursaries and educating people on the system is better than fee waivers?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Depends on the situation. If you end up in a post-graduate career with a high enough salary to pay off your debt before it gets wiped then it doesn't make a difference whether you got a bursary or fee waiver.
I don't think education alone will change someone's ingrained perceptions and worry about 'debt'. If fee waivers is what attracts students, that's a lot easier to do then reach out to every school in the country to try to tell them not to worry about student debt.
I know my uni gives people a choice to a fee waiver or bursary (or combination). I don't see why someone can't make their own decision as to which form they should receive it.
I would personally prefer a bursary to be honest but I don't see why it's a big issue about fee waivers. They're just a different way of attracting & supporting less well off kids.
Original post by SilverstarDJ
Depends on the situation. If you end up in a post-graduate career with a high enough salary to pay off your debt before it gets wiped then it doesn't make a difference whether you got a bursary or fee waiver.
I don't think education alone will change someone's ingrained perceptions and worry about 'debt'. If fee waivers is what attracts students, that's a lot easier to do then reach out to every school in the country to try to tell them not to worry about student debt.
I know my uni gives people a choice to a fee waiver or bursary (or combination). I don't see why someone can't make their own decision as to which form they should receive it.
I would personally prefer a bursary to be honest but I don't see why it's a big issue about fee waivers. They're just a different way of attracting & supporting less well off kids.
I don't think education alone will change someone's ingrained perceptions and worry about 'debt'. If fee waivers is what attracts students, that's a lot easier to do then reach out to every school in the country to try to tell them not to worry about student debt.
I know my uni gives people a choice to a fee waiver or bursary (or combination). I don't see why someone can't make their own decision as to which form they should receive it.
I would personally prefer a bursary to be honest but I don't see why it's a big issue about fee waivers. They're just a different way of attracting & supporting less well off kids.
I think the problem people have with them is that they are very little actual help to poorer students and really just losing unnecessary money. If we want more poor students at university, surely educating them about the system and dispelling misconceptions (a few talks and low income schools teacher conferences, maybe,?) would get more of them through the door and into better universities?
Posted from TSR Mobile
I get the fee waiver. I didn't ask for it; my uni automatically signed me up because of my household income bracket. It comes in three parts at my uni, £1000 bursary, £1000 off last term's accommodation, and £1000 off tuition fees. Is the last one useful to me at all? No. But is my uni more interested in doing something like that over doubling my accommodation discount or bursary? Of course.
Regardless of it's usefulness to us (as in, those with a low household income), it's useful to the uni to have a fee waiver. It makes them look good, it meets quotas, and it's a very painless thing for them to do. Who wouldn't prefer to wipe £3000 off a massive debt most will likely never pay off than hand out twice as much money in bursaries?
In any case, the threshold for getting the bursaries I do is so low that your parents wouldn't (rather than "might not decide to, but could") be able to support you. That's the idea.
Do you? Those rich grammar/public school kids have much better connections (which is a massive advantage in the business world, and still annoyingly relevant in some sectors), and their parents can support them through things like getting the relevant work experience you need for things like medicine, help with rent or transport costs so they can live in their desired city (for example, London). Being rich sure helps with getting a better CV/application than a poor person with less opportunities and more restrictions. And let's not even get on to postgraduate study.
Regardless of it's usefulness to us (as in, those with a low household income), it's useful to the uni to have a fee waiver. It makes them look good, it meets quotas, and it's a very painless thing for them to do. Who wouldn't prefer to wipe £3000 off a massive debt most will likely never pay off than hand out twice as much money in bursaries?
In any case, the threshold for getting the bursaries I do is so low that your parents wouldn't (rather than "might not decide to, but could") be able to support you. That's the idea.
Original post by ed-
I know people from poorer backgrounds studying medicine and law and are definitely going to get good jobs
Do you? Those rich grammar/public school kids have much better connections (which is a massive advantage in the business world, and still annoyingly relevant in some sectors), and their parents can support them through things like getting the relevant work experience you need for things like medicine, help with rent or transport costs so they can live in their desired city (for example, London). Being rich sure helps with getting a better CV/application than a poor person with less opportunities and more restrictions. And let's not even get on to postgraduate study.
(edited 10 years ago)
As a student from a family with an exceptionally low wage (single mother and all that) I have to say I personally only want enough money for accommodation, food and socialising, money I get from the government. The £9,000 course fee, it's obvious, does not affect me at all, and there's no need to scrap it because I am poor.
Original post by Little Boots
As a student from a family with an exceptionally low wage (single mother and all that) I have to say I personally only want enough money for accommodation, food and socialising, money I get from the government. The £9,000 course fee, it's obvious, does not affect me at all, and there's no need to scrap it because I am poor.
I am in exactly the same position. Luckily I was able to choose scholarship money to reduce my accommodation fees this term over a fee waiver which would be useless to me now.
Original post by ribosome3
I am in exactly the same position. Luckily I was able to choose scholarship money to reduce my accommodation fees this term over a fee waiver which would be useless to me now.
Absolutely. Was the gov. loan not enough to cover accommodation for you?
Original post by ed-
Since people have recently found out which university they're going to there is a lot of talk about scholarships, bursaries and fee waivers...
I didn't know about the latter until recently, that people from a poorer background pay less to go to university. This would all be fine if you paid upfront .. but you don't.
I don't see why someone from a poor family should have less debt than me when we're earning the same wage. Is the payback system not in place to make sure you only pay the loan back when you can afford to?
why not contribute to the thread instead of negging me? most of the people posting seem to agree with me...
I didn't know about the latter until recently, that people from a poorer background pay less to go to university. This would all be fine if you paid upfront .. but you don't.
I don't see why someone from a poor family should have less debt than me when we're earning the same wage. Is the payback system not in place to make sure you only pay the loan back when you can afford to?
why not contribute to the thread instead of negging me? most of the people posting seem to agree with me...
Often, the only bursary you get based on income is, surprise surprise, an income assessed bursary, the NSP. These days with the new fees, it is quite a lot, usually around £2000-4500 depending on the university and the student's income. The university often gives a choice of taking it in the form of cash, then the rest off either accommodation or fees, or they give the choice of taking all of it off the fees. Or split it between the fees and accommodation.
It really doesn't concern you one bit, if the university if giving a student £4500, if is up to them if they want to take some cash and have the rest off accommodation or take it all off the fees, that is their business, not yours.
They give bursaries like this because in the case that they run out of money, they still have some extra income. In your case where your parents must earn quite a bit (based on your bitterness about people from poor backgrounds) if you run out of money, a quick phone call home will see you out of the red and will have enough to see the rest of term through. Whether or not your parents said they will give you money or not doesn't matter, they aren't going to let you starve. In the case of poor students, sometimes there is simply no money, or not enough to send.
In terms of other scholarships, I've not heard of a scholarship based on household income, however often you get types asking to meet certain requirements such as coming from a school with a record of poor grades, neither of the parents attended university, grew up in care, something like that, where there is a requirement of household income under £n, then usually you will need to meet more than one requirement.
Bursaries are not about the debt afterwards, they are about seeing poorer students through university without needing to worry about finances, if they decide they don't need it and decided to take a chunk off their tuition fees instead, that is up to them, and all the crying in the world on your part does nothing to change that.
Get your facts right before you come on here whining about having too much money.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by ed-
I don't see why someone from a poor family should have less debt than me
Wow
Original post by Little Boots
Absolutely. Was the gov. loan not enough to cover accommodation for you?
No, I'm living in London and receiving literally no help from my mum so the gov loan has to last me the year for absolutely everything. All of this poor debate is ridiculous, I understand tuition fee waivers for anyone is stupid but saying poorer people shouldn't receive extra help is ridiculous to me as someone in this situation. This summer my family was on the brink of being homeless so I'm just thankful to be at uni now even if money is a struggle
Original post by ribosome3
No, I'm living in London and receiving literally no help from my mum so the gov loan has to last me the year for absolutely everything. All of this poor debate is ridiculous, I understand tuition fee waivers for anyone is stupid but saying poorer people shouldn't receive extra help is ridiculous to me as someone in this situation. This summer my family was on the brink of being homeless so I'm just thankful to be at uni now even if money is a struggle
Ah, yeah, that's why I didn't apply to London unis myself. I reckon some of these people have no idea what it's like to be poor. What a terribly middle-class thread. Oh well. Good luck with your degree, eh.
So true
Original post by Sheldor
I think the problem people have with them is that they are very little actual help to poorer students and really just losing unnecessary money. If we want more poor students at university, surely educating them about the system and dispelling misconceptions (a few talks and low income schools teacher conferences, maybe,?) would get more of them through the door and into better universities?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
At my uni at least, in 1st year you have no choice but to get a £1k fee waiver + bursary, but in subsequent years you can choose to either have a bursary or fee waiver or both. I don't see why people shouldn't have the choice - that is their choice and I don't see why that is a problem if someone wishes to reduce their student loan.
It's easy to say that going into school to give talks will solve the problems of fewer poorer students applying, but the truth is that if you come from a family who has no history of going to uni, you are less likely to go to uni than if you come from a family where this is expected from your parents & schools. Whether the fee waiver works or not as an incentive, I don't know. But the unis have got to do 'something' to show they are attracting under-represented students and this is one way they can justify their £9k fees.
Quick Reply
Related discussions
- Has anyone combined a doctoral loan with uni funding?Please help!
- Are Foundation year scholarships a thing?
- If I dropped to part time PhD, could I go back to full?
- Masters Program in Business Analytics/Data Analytics
- Can I accept a partially funded PhD while trying to secure additional funding?
- Doctoral loan and uni fee waiver funding, please help!
- Lougbough or aston university
- Interested In Playing Sport at University?
- Applying to the US
- Is the IELTS even necessary?
- Master Economics: LSE vs Cambridge vs UCL vs CEMFI vs BGSE
- Caper test for worcester GEM
- How much money should you have in order to do a masters degree?
- Caribbean Medical School placements in the UK
- MSc Mathematics and Foundations of Computer Science (MFOCS) Oxford
- Going to veterinary medicine from biomedical science
- Year 12s: Are you considering any of the following after year 13?
- Why do Northern universities have more northerners and vice versa for southern?
- uk education system
- Do I need geography/maths for geology?
Latest
Trending
Last reply 2 days ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 2 days ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?Trending
Last reply 2 days ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 2 days ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?
