Should doctors/nurses wear a full veil?
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Original post by de_monies
I'm pretty sure that Islamically speaking, a veil would be "waived" because it's probably a health risk ie: lots of "laws" can be bent in the case of necessity
Wearing a veil isn't a health risk.
Original post by Al-Mudaari
Have you ever been to a hospital before in your life? Do you know what ID tags are for?
Actually, Strawberry has a good point. How can you build a relationship with someone you can't immediately identify?
Original post by Al-Mudaari
Well, I'm not a doctor to really verify this illness that renders communication obsolete without seeing the person's face.
Its called deafness. They already told you that... and unless it gives them telepathic abilities I haven't heard about, it doesn't 'rendor communication obsolete' either.Original post by Al-Mudaari
It's not pandering, it's respecting their freedom to practice their religion, something the constitute protects.
Where are you from? Here in the Uk we don't have a constitution. Clearly freedom of religion is important, but it just seems that you shouldn't be quoting law when you don't know enough about the Uk to know there is no constitution.
Original post by mmmpie
I think you live in a very different world to the rest of us.
Many doctors and nurses do let their feelings get in the way of their judgement; I once had a nurse sacked for making a homophobic remark in A&E.
Many doctors and nurses do let their feelings get in the way of their judgement; I once had a nurse sacked for making a homophobic remark in A&E.
It's quite sad that based on one experience you had, you'd generalise that all doctors would allow their feelings to get in the way of their judgements.
Original post by mmmpie
Building trust between the medical profession and certain groups has been and continues to be an ongoing problem. The penalties for certain kinds of misconduct have helped, but I feel that contributes more to an air of mutual mistrust than mutual trust.
I would rather share intimate problems with a doctor who I don't know but who on a snap judgement - based on face, body language, and whatever other subconscious factor - I feel comfortable with than one I know well but do not feel comfortable with. We do not trust doctors simply because they are doctors, we trust them because we believe that they are good people as well as doctors.
I would rather share intimate problems with a doctor who I don't know but who on a snap judgement - based on face, body language, and whatever other subconscious factor - I feel comfortable with than one I know well but do not feel comfortable with. We do not trust doctors simply because they are doctors, we trust them because we believe that they are good people as well as doctors.
A shame doctors can't choose who they serve.
Also, a veil isn't going to stop someone from building trust and strong relationships. Only the ignorant, narrow minded person will.
Original post by mmmpie
Actually, Strawberry has a good point. How can you build a relationship with someone you can't immediately identify?
You can identify them with their voice, their eyes, their physical outlook etc. I think it would be a terrible excuse to say otherwise.
But Doctors ID cards must be useless because they're being stolen and forged on a daily basis
Original post by nexttime
Where are you from? Here in the Uk we don't have a constitution. Clearly freedom of religion is important, but it just seems that you shouldn't be quoting law when you don't know enough about the Uk to know there is no constitution.
Where are you from? Here in the Uk we don't have a constitution. Clearly freedom of religion is important, but it just seems that you shouldn't be quoting law when you don't know enough about the Uk to know there is no constitution.
1. I didn't say constitution, I said constitute.
2. Even if I had said constitution, based on the context of my sentence, you should've known what I meant anyways.
(edited 10 years ago)
Absolutely not. Headscarf = fine as long as health and safety is being adhered to, but no part of the face and no facial features should be covered. It's part of the trust; a lot of trust is based on eye contact and seeing/gauging the facial expressions of the person you're talking to. If you don't have that, you don't have the trust you need in a doctor or nurse.
I have no mistrust in Muslims or any other race, and no opposition to people wearing what they want on the street, but I think in certain roles - and also in certain places, such as court and schools - face-to-face contact is vital. Would you want your doctor to wear a motorcycle helmet?
I have no mistrust in Muslims or any other race, and no opposition to people wearing what they want on the street, but I think in certain roles - and also in certain places, such as court and schools - face-to-face contact is vital. Would you want your doctor to wear a motorcycle helmet?
Original post by Al-Mudaari
Well, that's a shame for the doctor.
It's also quite sad that you'd generalise all doctors would allow their feelings to get in the way of their judgements.
It's also quite sad that you'd generalise all doctors would allow their feelings to get in the way of their judgements.
I think it's a shame that you're illiterate. I mentioned a nurse not a doctor, and I did not say that all doctors would allow their feelings to get in the way of their judgements. Perhaps we should direct our concern at the education system rather than the health system.
Original post by Al-Mudaari
A shame doctors can't choose who they serve.
And building trust and strong relationships can also be done with a face veil.
And building trust and strong relationships can also be done with a face veil.
Doctors can choose who they serve. If they choose to serve the public (via the NHS) as many do, they don't get to choose which bit. I don't see what's unfair about that.
I'm sure that building such a relationship is possible, I didn't say that it wasn't, only that it might be more difficult. Do you not comprehend why?
Original post by The Angry Stoic
Such ignorance. Not all death people can use hearing aids.
And do you not understand how much communication is non verbal? Imagine being told you had cancer by nothing but a pair of eyes.
And do you not understand how much communication is non verbal? Imagine being told you had cancer by nothing but a pair of eyes.
What is your point here, exactly? If I'm going to be told that I have cancer, I'm going to be pretty distraught no matter what. Why is it going to make a difference what my doctor is wearing? Seeing their face doesn't make me have any less cancer
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Al-Mudaari
You can identify them with their voice, their eyes, their physical outlook etc.
But ID cards must be useless because they're being stolen and forged on a daily basis
You can identify them with their voice, their eyes, their physical outlook etc.
But ID cards must be useless because they're being stolen and forged on a daily basis
Psychological research tells us we can't recognise a face just from one facial feature alone, we need to see a good portion of the face (at least half, usually) to tell who it is. But, how is this relevant if we never see the doctor's face as it is always covered up? Security risk, and it could unnerve patients who find it hard to communicate with people anyway, let alone people they cannot see properly. As for the voice, I can't see your voice sounding vaguely similar being sufficient to be honest, hospitals employ hundreds of staff so you can't possibly expect them all to recognise you by your voice alone. I think you're living in a dream world.
Original post by tazarooni89
What is your point here, exactly? If I have cancer, why is it going to help me to see a doctors face? It doesn't make me have any less cancer
It's about being able to emotionally connect with and support the patient. The way you tell someone bad news can make a huge difference. Facial expression is a huge part of communication and allows people to connect emotionally.
You wouldn't like to be told you had cancer over the phone would you?
Original post by tazarooni89
Well if I'm the one who's failing to understand something here, why don't you point out what it is? Are you telling me that the news of getting cancer somehow becomes bearable if you see a doctors face? Why should it?
Yes it bloody well does. People should not feel alone under such circumstances, and a doctor in a personal tent would not be perceived by many as a comforting companion. Like it or not, the veil depersonalises the wearer to others - hardly useful when having a fellow person is important.
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Original post by Al-Mudaari
It's quite sad that based on one experience you had, you'd generalise that all doctors would allow their feelings to get in the way of their judgements.
A shame doctors can't choose who they serve.
Also, a veil isn't going to stop someone from building trust and strong relationships. Only the ignorant, narrow minded person will.
You can identify them with their voice, their eyes, their physical outlook etc. I think it would be a terrible excuse to say otherwise.
But Doctors ID cards must be useless because they're being stolen and forged on a daily basis
1. I didn't say constitution, I said constitute.
2. Even if I had said constitution, based on the context of my sentence, you should've known what I meant anyways.
A shame doctors can't choose who they serve.
Also, a veil isn't going to stop someone from building trust and strong relationships. Only the ignorant, narrow minded person will.
You can identify them with their voice, their eyes, their physical outlook etc. I think it would be a terrible excuse to say otherwise.
But Doctors ID cards must be useless because they're being stolen and forged on a daily basis
1. I didn't say constitution, I said constitute.
2. Even if I had said constitution, based on the context of my sentence, you should've known what I meant anyways.
Then you wouldn't mind a doctor in a balaclava?
Do you have any female friends? Do they wear face coverings?
hmm i would like to able to verify that my doctor is infact my doctor before we began
Original post by Al-Mudaari
Yup, don't see any issues that it could cause, unless someone purposely wants to be fussy.
Get hearing aids then, a veil isn't going to lower anyone's sound either.
I'm also pretty sure you'll be able to satisfactorily communicate with someone who's face you can't see, unless you don't answer your phone.
Get hearing aids then, a veil isn't going to lower anyone's sound either.
I'm also pretty sure you'll be able to satisfactorily communicate with someone who's face you can't see, unless you don't answer your phone.
What if someone is deaf, but can speak and 'listens' by mouth reading?
While you can usually easily change G.P., then with specialists, to change would often mean going back on a waiting list of several months. So patients can not always easily change doctor.
mmmpie
Yes it bloody well does. People should not feel alone under such circumstances, and a doctor in a personal tent would not be perceived by many as a comforting companion. Like it or not, the veil depersonalises the wearer to others - hardly useful when having a fellow person is important.
Original post by The Angry Stoic
It's about being able to emotionally connect with and support the patient. The way you tell someone bad news can make a huge difference. Facial expression is a huge part of communication and allows people to connect emotionally.
You wouldn't like to be told you had cancer over the phone would you?
You wouldn't like to be told you had cancer over the phone would you?
You could say that about anything though. You wouldn't like to be told you had cancer by someone wearing glasses would you? We'd better ban glasses. I wouldn't like to be told I have cancer by anybody, regardless of what they are or aren't wearing.
Besides, if the patient has no friends or family, to the extent that they have nobody to connect with emotionally and be comforted by other than hospital staff, and they have something against veils, to the extent that a person wearing one is going to offer insufficient condolences (which is going to be quite rare to begin with) - then there's no shortage of other, non-veiled people in the building who can offer the same shoulder to cry on.
Though I don't really believe that being a recipient of bad news automatically gives you an inviolate right to make demands of other people about matters which are normally at their discretion (such as their clothing), just because you find it more emotionally comforting. Otherwise I could say, "I've just been told I have cancer. It would really cheer me up if my doctor wore a clown suit today". What my doctor wears is his business, regardless of what bad news I've received or how I might feel about it.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by tazarooni89
You could say that about anything though. You wouldn't like to be told you had cancer by someone wearing glasses would you? We'd better ban glasses. I wouldn't like to be told I have cancer by anybody, regardless of what they are or aren't wearing.
Besides, if the patient has no friends or family, to the extent that they have nobody to connect with emotionally and be comforted by other than hospital staff, and they have something against veils, to the extent that a person wearing one is going to offer insufficient condolences (which is going to be quite rare to begin with) - then there's no shortage of other, non-veiled people in the building who can do the same thing.
Besides, if the patient has no friends or family, to the extent that they have nobody to connect with emotionally and be comforted by other than hospital staff, and they have something against veils, to the extent that a person wearing one is going to offer insufficient condolences (which is going to be quite rare to begin with) - then there's no shortage of other, non-veiled people in the building who can do the same thing.
Glasses don't prevent eye contact.
I have had serious news given to me by a medical professional before, and it has helped knowing that the person is taking me seriously, and is concerned, as opposed to not caring.
Friends and family provide secondary support, however your doctor is the one who is going to be prescribing treatment - you would want that person to be confident, and taking your needs into account - things like that which we can pick up from body language, including facial expressions. If someone is hidden from us, how do we know that we are not just another file to them.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Al-Mudaari
Wearing a veil isn't a health risk.
Not in every day life no. As a surgeon, quite possibly so
Of course not. As has been pointed out - security risks, hygiene risks of contamination, trust issues.
I would immediately refuse to be treated by anyone so ridiculously dressed.
I would immediately refuse to be treated by anyone so ridiculously dressed.
Original post by tazarooni89
You could say that about anything though. You wouldn't like to be told you had cancer by someone wearing glasses would you? We'd better ban glasses. I wouldn't like to be told I have cancer by anybody, regardless of what they are or aren't wearing.
Besides, if the patient has no friends or family, to the extent that they have nobody to connect with emotionally and be comforted by other than hospital staff, and they have something against veils, to the extent that a person wearing one is going to offer insufficient condolences (which is going to be quite rare to begin with) - then there's no shortage of other, non-veiled people in the building who can offer the same shoulder to cry on.
Though I don't really believe that being a recipient of bad news automatically gives you an inviolate right to make demands of other people about matters which are normally at their discretion (such as their clothing), just because you find it more emotionally comforting. Otherwise I could say, "I've just been told I have cancer. It would really cheer me up if my doctor wore a clown suit today".
Besides, if the patient has no friends or family, to the extent that they have nobody to connect with emotionally and be comforted by other than hospital staff, and they have something against veils, to the extent that a person wearing one is going to offer insufficient condolences (which is going to be quite rare to begin with) - then there's no shortage of other, non-veiled people in the building who can offer the same shoulder to cry on.
Though I don't really believe that being a recipient of bad news automatically gives you an inviolate right to make demands of other people about matters which are normally at their discretion (such as their clothing), just because you find it more emotionally comforting. Otherwise I could say, "I've just been told I have cancer. It would really cheer me up if my doctor wore a clown suit today".
I wouldn't be deprived of eye contact, facial expression, or body language by a doctor wearing glasses.
I don't care if you believe this is not a problem for you, it would be for me. Frankly it comes back to an utter lack of empathy as I already said, your belief that this is a non-issue is naive at best.
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Original post by rmhumphries
Glasses don't prevent eye contact.
Neither does a veil
Spoiler
I have had serious news given to me by a medical professional before, and it has helped knowing that the person is taking me seriously, and is concerned, as opposed to not caring.
Friends and family provide secondary support, however your doctor is the one who is going to be prescribing treatment - you would want that person to be confident, and taking your needs into account - things like that which we can pick up from body language, including facial expressions. If someone is hidden from us, how do we know that we are not just another file to them.
Friends and family provide secondary support, however your doctor is the one who is going to be prescribing treatment - you would want that person to be confident, and taking your needs into account - things like that which we can pick up from body language, including facial expressions. If someone is hidden from us, how do we know that we are not just another file to them.
In reality,you probably are just another file to them - particularly when you're seeing a doctor who has broken the same bad news to hundreds of different people. If they formed an emotional relationship with every patient they treated, they'd be in a constant state of depression after watching them all get illnesses and pass away. While they might present a certain persona, after many years of doing the job they tend to (or rather have to) become emotionally detached.
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