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Why do homophobes compare homosexuality to incest, polygamy, etc?

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Reply 40
Original post by yaboy
Nothing wrong with being homophobic.



Original post by shadowdweller


I won't even bother addressing that comment, which is clearly intended as a troll post.

Edit: That remark is meant to Yaboy, btw, not Shadowdweller.
Reply 41
Original post by shadowdweller


How if you're not offending anyone?
Reply 42
Original post by tazarooni89
I don't think it's an attempt at an argument against homosexuality. I think it's just a way of saying "it doesn't harm anyone else" is not a sufficient argument to prove that homosexuality is acceptable - there must be more to the story than just that. Because there are lots of other relationships with can be argued not to harm anyone else, and yet they're still considered unacceptable, or illegal.

I agree with the part in bold. So if someone considers homosexuality to be acceptable but not incest, I might want to find out all the reasons why they consider incest to be unacceptable, and then see whether or not any of them can also apply to homosexuality. And that can be done by the process I described earlier. (i.e. You think incest is wrong because of genetically weaker children? Is it still wrong if the couple can't have children? etc.)

It's not a way of saying that homosexuality is wrong, it's just a way of analysing the standards a person uses to judge which relationships are moral and which aren't, and checking to see if they are consistent (because very often, they aren't).


Incestuous relationships which don't produce children, either through homosexuality (therefore a circular reference),.condoms or surgery, I cannot define as being immoral, although the laws of this land still class them as illegal.

Many heterosexual couples either can't or won't have children, yet no one questions the morality of their harmless love for each other.
Original post by yaboy
How if you're not offending anyone?


Well, it depends whether you act on your homophobia, I suppose.

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Reply 44
Original post by tazarooni89
I don't think it's an attempt at an argument against homosexuality. I think it's just a way of saying "it doesn't harm anyone else" is not a sufficient argument to prove that homosexuality is acceptable - there must be more to the story than just that. Because there are lots of other relationships with can be argued not to harm anyone else, and yet they're still considered unacceptable, or illegal.

I agree with the part in bold. So if someone considers homosexuality to be acceptable but not incest, I might want to find out all the reasons why they consider incest to be unacceptable, and then see whether or not any of them can also apply to homosexuality. And that can be done by the process I described earlier. (i.e. You think incest is wrong because of genetically weaker children? Is it still wrong if the couple can't have children? etc.)

It's not a way of saying that homosexuality is wrong, it's just a way of analysing the standards a person uses to judge which relationships are moral and which aren't, and checking to see if they are consistent (because very often, they aren't).


I sort of agree with this. I don't think there is any need for people to put forward arguments for why homosexuality is ok, it's up to the otehr side to say why it isn't. I have issues with certain forms of incest (basically when one of the participents is much younger than the other so there is a high chance of abuse from someone in a position of power, not dissimilar from how doctors can't have a relationship with a patient).
Reply 45
Original post by yaboy
How if you're not offending anyone?


So if I were to tell you that I believe you're disgusting simply for who you love, and that you're going to Hell, that you are sick, that you are wrong, and that God hates you, you'd be OK with that, would you?

And not just me, but everyone. Have you thought what psychological damage that would cause?
Original post by james22
I sort of agree with this. I don't think there is any need for people to put forward arguments for why homosexuality is ok, it's up to the otehr side to say why it isn't. I have issues with certain forms of incest (basically when one of the participents is much younger than the other so there is a high chance of abuse from someone in a position of power, not dissimilar from how doctors can't have a relationship with a patient).


Yes, I agree with that.

However, if someone thinks homosexuality is acceptable but incest [or some other relationship] is unacceptable, would you also agree that it is up to them to provide reasons why incest [or some other relationship] is unacceptable (as well as ensuring that none of their reasons could also apply to homosexuality e.g. "I find it disgusting")?
Reply 47
Original post by askew116
So if I were to tell you that I believe you're disgusting simply for who you love, and that you're going to Hell, that you are sick, that you are wrong, and that God hates you, you'd be OK with that, would you?

And not just me, but everyone. Have you thought what psychological damage that would cause?


It's not my problem if you hate me inside because of it, but if you start to express your hate then it becomes an issue.

What goes on in your head is completely up to you
Reply 48
Original post by askew116
So if I were to tell you that I believe you're disgusting simply for who you love, and that you're going to Hell, that you are sick, that you are wrong, and that God hates you, you'd be OK with that, would you?

And not just me, but everyone. Have you thought what psychological damage that would cause?


That escalated a little bit. He said what's wrong with it if he meant no offense? What you stated in your post is clearly offensive.

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Reply 49
Original post by tazarooni89
Yes, I agree with that.

However, if someone thinks homosexuality is acceptable but incest [or some other relationship] is unacceptable, would you also agree that it is up to them to provide reasons why incest [or some other relationship] is unacceptable (as well as ensuring that none of their reasons could also apply to homosexuality e.g. "I find it disgusting")?


Yes, I really don't like it when people use the "I find it disgusting" argument against a certain sexual preference, esspecially when they attack people for being against homosexuality. It is very hypocritical.
Reply 50
I've people say homosexuality is just as bad as incest, paedophila because it is a sin. Don't think they actually mean homosexuals commit those crimes.


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Original post by askew116
I guess I have to acknowledge that I'm somewhat of a hypocrite on that issue, but I do console myself with the fact that I do only buy meat produce when I can justify that the animal has been appropriately cared for in life.


Could you clarify: When you say that you are a hypocrite on the issue, are you saying that you think it is wrong to eat or have sexual relationships with animals since we don't have their consent (yet you eat animals without their consent even though you believe it is wrong to do so)? Or are you saying that you agree that the consent issue doesn't fully apply to eating meat (which is why you are willing to do it), but then similarly, it shouldn't really apply to bestiality either? It sounds like you're saying it's the former, but I just wanted to check.

Assuming it's the former: Would you be in favour of a law which makes eating meat illegal on the basis that animals don't consent to it, just as bestiality is illegal? Or would you be in favour of a law which legalises bestiality (despite the fact that it is immoral due to lack of consent), just as eating meat is legal?


Also, I have another question for you, regarding consent:

You mentioned that you disapprove of relationships with children, because they are young and therefore cannot provide informed consent. In most other situations where children are deemed too young to issue their consent, we consider parental consent to be acceptable. For example, parents need to consent to children having certain medical procedures, or being taken on school trips, or having their photographs published in certain types of media etc. Assuming that you consider this type of consent from parents on behalf of their children to be acceptable in the situations I mentioned - would you also consider parental consent to sufficiently justify a sexual relationship with a child? If not, why not?
Reply 52
Original post by SuziieB
That escalated a little bit. He said what's wrong with it if he meant no offense? What you stated in your post is clearly offensive.

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The key word in that last post was 'if''. I was putting a hypothetical scenario to him, to try to get him to understand what it's like to be on the receiving end of discrimination.
Original post by tazarooni89
The reason homosexuality is often compared to other traditionally taboo relationships is because, people often say that homosexuality should be accepted in society because "it isn't harming anyone else".


It remains a valid argument that homosexuality does not harm others. It's a slippery slope argument/red herring to detract from that argument by waving around incest, polygamy, etc.

The point being made is that, a lot of other traditionally taboo relationships also don't harm anyone else. For example, an incestuous relationship in which no children are (at risk of being) produced can also be argued to "not harm anyone else". However, the same people supporting homosexuality will have no problem with these other relationships remaining illegal or frowned upon.


Then they are indeed hypocritical if they advocate for homosexuality but would have homosexual incest, for example (where there is no risk of genetic defects), barred because it's 'icky'. Yet, there are more risk factors than just genetic defects with regard to incestuous relationships, such as psychological factors. This is what I mean about allowing different types of relationships on a case-by-case basis.

And I would reiterate that homophobes who accept heterosexuality for arbitrary reasons but reject homosexuality also display hypocrisy.

I mean, even heterosexuality can be used in a slippery slope argument. If I ask you: 'why do you accept heterosexuality but not incest' and you answer: 'because the former does not harm anyone', then the same counter-argument could be lodged.

You might say incest is being "analysed on its own merits" - but the fact is that in this case, it's being analysed against inconsistent standards, compared to those used to analyse homosexuality.


Not really. Whether something is harmful takes a long analysis and incestuous relationships may fall short of the level of harm we would accept; whereas, homosexuality may not.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 54
I do apologise if someone has said this already and I've missed it, but no-one seems to have raised the actual reason why those who oppose homosexual acts compare it to incest, polygamy, and bestiality.
The reason is that the social "justification" for homosexual acts rests on the right of a person to satisfy his/her sexual desires as he/she pleases. Those who oppose homosexual acts extend this reasoning and claim that it logically follows that a person who has incestual, polygamous, or bestial sexual desires also has a right to satisfy these sexual desires as he/she pleases. Ergo, they claim, homosexual acts can not be justified without also logically justifying incestual, polygamous, and bestial acts.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Thaladan
I do apologise if someone has said this already and I've missed it, but no-one seems to have raised the actual reason why those who oppose homosexual acts compare it to incest, polygamy, and bestiality.
The reason is that the social "justification" for homosexual acts rests on the right of a person to satisfy his/her sexual desires as he/she pleases. Those who oppose homosexual acts extend this reasoning and claim that it logically follows that a person who has incestual, polygamous, or bestial sexual desires also has a right to satisfy these sexual desires as he/she pleases. Ergo, they claim, homosexual acts can not be justified without also logically justifying incestual, polygamous, and bestial acts.


Well said

Although people will argue that homosexuality allows both parties to give consent and it's legal
Original post by Thaladan
I do apologise if someone has said this already and I've missed it, but no-one seems to have raised the actual reason why those who oppose homosexual acts compare it to incest, polygamy, and bestiality.
The reason is that the social "justification" for homosexual acts rests on the right of a person to satisfy his/her sexual desires as he/she pleases. Those who oppose homosexual acts extend this reasoning and claim that it logically follows that a person who has incestual, polygamous, or bestial sexual desires also has a right to satisfy these sexual desires as he/she pleases. Ergo, they claim, homosexual acts can not be justified without also logically justifying incestual, polygamous, and bestial acts.


The social 'justification' seems to be less simplistic than that - it's more about that such acts involve consenting adults, cause no harm, etc.

Also, such a stance is contradictory because the social 'justification' for heterosexual sexual acts (particularly those which don't pursue reproduction such as oral sex) is the same. Yet, we rarely see people say to those who think heterosexual people should be able to engage in oral sex that they also have to allow incest, bestiality, etc.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 57
I really have not experienced people associating gay people with incest, etc. Most of the people really just accept gay people. The ones who had a negative connotation were the ones who just called them names--you know the regular ones. But, I really have not heard of this before. Interesting.
Original post by Lady Comstock
It remains a valid argument that homosexuality does not harm others. It's a slippery slope argument/red herring to detract from that argument by waving around incest, polygamy, etc.


But if you think that by saying "homosexuality doesn't harm others", then this shows that it is perfectly acceptable, naturally it follows that any other relationship that doesn't harm others is also perfectly acceptable, doesn't it?

Unless you're saying that you approve of absolutely everything that doesn't harm others, the fact that homosexuality doesn't harm others can't be the entire reason as to why you approve of it - meaning further information is required.
Or, if you are saying that you approve of absolutely everything that doesn't harm others, then it must also be true that whenever you disapprove of anything, you are able to demonstrate how it is harmful to others.
Don't you agree with this?

And I would reiterate that homophobes who accept heterosexuality for arbitrary reasons but reject homosexuality also display hypocrisy.

I mean, even heterosexuality can be used in a slippery slope argument. If I ask you: 'why do you accept heterosexuality but not incest' and you answer: 'because the former does not harm anyone', then the same counter-argument could be lodged.


I don't think anybody accepts heterosexuality just for arbitrary reasons, or just "because it does not harm anyone". In fact I'd say sometimes it does harm people. But there is also the "continuation of the human race" aspect of heterosexuality, which no other sexual relationship has. Rejecting heterosexuality causes a great deal of harm.

Not really. Whether something is harmful takes a long analysis and incestuous relationships may fall short of the level of harm we would accept; whereas, homosexuality may not.


Perhaps - but then if someone does not accept incest, then it is up to them to show that it causes a level of harm which ought not to be considered acceptable. Naturally, if they accept homosexuality, then the level of harm they are attributing to incest must be demonstrably higher than the level attributable to homosexuality.
Original post by tazarooni89
But if you think that by saying "homosexuality doesn't harm others", then this shows that it is perfectly acceptable, naturally it follows that any other relationship that doesn't harm others is also perfectly acceptable, doesn't it?


Of course, but that doesn't invalidate homosexuality or act as an argument against homosexuality per se - there's a reason why a slippery slope fallacy exists.

It doesn't tell us why homosexuality should be prohibited, but merely highlights a hypocrisy from the person advocating homosexuality if they then proceed to demand the prohibition of incest because it's icky.

This is why it's rather bemusing when this acts as the sole argument against homosexuality from homophobes.

I don't think anybody accepts heterosexuality just for arbitrary reasons, or just "because it does not harm anyone". In fact I'd say sometimes it does harm people. But there is also the "continuation of the human race" aspect of heterosexuality, which no other sexual relationship has. Rejecting heterosexuality causes a great deal of harm.


I thought you may rationalise why heterosexuality is exempt. And, using your own slippery slope rationality, polygamy and paedophilia have the ability to progress the 'continuation of the human race'.

Even if we disregard my above paragraph, what about acts such as oral sex between heterosexual couples? If you are fine with oral sex between heterosexual couples, even though it doesn't form part of the 'continuation of the human race' then I can use the hypocrisy argument again.

Perhaps - but then if someone does not accept incest, then it is up to them to show that it causes a level of harm which ought not to be considered acceptable. Naturally, if they accept homosexuality, then the level of harm they are attributing to incest must be demonstrably higher than the level attributable to homosexuality.


Precisely, and many would argue that the level of harm is higher.

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