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Energy stored in spring stretched diagonally

Hi, just want some clarification on this please. We have a spring on natural length l which is held vertically. The end is then moved horizontally so that the spring is stretched diagonally. The question is to find the stored energy when the end is at position x.

I said that the length of the spring, L=(l^2+x^2)^0.5, which for small displacements can be approximated by l(1+x^2/2l^2). The extension is then x^2/2l. The force is thus kx^2/2l. Here is what I don't get. The solutions say that the stored energy is
[br]kx22dx[br][br]\int \dfrac{kx^2}{2\ell}\, \mathrm{d}x[br].
Why is the integration with respect to x? Shouldn't a tiny increase in energy, dW=F*dL, where dL is a tiny extension of the spring? I can't understand why the solutions write dW=kdx
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 1
bump :smile:
Original post by KeyFingot
Hi, just want some clarification on this please. We have a spring on natural length l which is held vertically. The end is then moved horizontally so that the spring is stretched diagonally. The question is to find the stored energy when the end is at position x.

I said that the length of the spring, L=(l^2+x^2)^0.5, which for small displacements can be approximated by l(1+x^2/2l^2). The extension is then x^2/2l. The force is thus kx^2/2l. Here is what I don't get. The solutions say that the stored energy is
[br]kx22dx[br][br]\int \dfrac{kx^2}{2\ell}\, \mathrm{d}x[br].
Why is the integration with respect to x? Shouldn't a tiny increase in energy, dW=F*dL, where dL is a tiny extension of the spring? I can't understand why the solutions write dW=kdx

in dW=F*dL the force is kx^2/2l, and it should be dx not dL,because L is the length not the extension,the extension is x, if you drew a graph of force and extension,the area under the graph is the work done, so dW=Fdx
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 3
Original post by physics4ever
in dW=F*dL the force is kx^2/2l, and it should be dx not dL,because L is the length not the extension,the extension is x, if you drew a graph of force and extension,the area under the graph is the work done, so dW=Fdx


But x is the distance the end of the spring is moved horizontally, the spring extends in the diagonal direction
L is a constant, x is the variable.
The extension, e, you say is x2/2L
The force is ke
The force is kx2/2L

The stored energy dW from moving the spring dx is the integral Fdx
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 5
Original post by Stonebridge
L is a constant, x is the variable.
The extension you say is x2/2L
The force is kx2/2L
The stored energy dW from moving the spring dx is the integral Fdx

This doesn't make sense to me though, dx isn't the extension of the spring so why are we integrating with respect to it?

Edit: l was the length of the spring, L is the extension, L=x^2/2l
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by KeyFingot
But x is the distance the end of the spring is moved horizontally, the spring extends in the diagonal direction

oh yeah i see what you mean
Original post by KeyFingot
This doesn't make sense to me though, dx isn't the extension of the spring so why are we integrating with respect to it?


Because you want the energy stored in terms of x
Original post by Stonebridge
L is a constant, x is the variable.
The extension, e, you say is x2/2L
The force is ke
The force is kx2/2L

The stored energy dW from moving the spring dx is the integral Fdx

shouldnt it be Fde?
Reply 9
Original post by Stonebridge
Because you want the energy stored in terms of x

So then, shouldn't we be considering a line integral as F and dx are not in the same direction. Ie Fcos(a)dx?
Original post by KeyFingot
Hi, just want some clarification on this please. We have a spring on natural length l which is held vertically. The end is then moved horizontally so that the spring is stretched diagonally. The question is to find the stored energy when the end is at position x.

I said that the length of the spring, L=(l^2+x^2)^0.5, which for small displacements can be approximated by l(1+x^2/2l^2). The extension is then x^2/2l. The force is thus kx^2/2l. Here is what I don't get. The solutions say that the stored energy is
[br]kx22dx[br][br]\int \dfrac{kx^2}{2\ell}\, \mathrm{d}x[br].
Why is the integration with respect to x? Shouldn't a tiny increase in energy, dW=F*dL, where dL is a tiny extension of the spring? I can't understand why the solutions write dW=kdx

we should multiply the integral by (dx/de)x(de/dx)
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 11
Original post by physics4ever
we should multiply the integral by (dx/de)x(de/dx)

So just x then?
Original post by KeyFingot
So just x then?

no, in your integral it should be W=S(kx^2/2L)de where e is the extension of the string,not x,
then multipliy it by (dx/de)(de/dx) so
W=S(kx^2/2L)de times (dx/de)(de/dx), the de's cancel with de(dx/de)and you get
W=S(kx^2/2L)dx times (de/dx) but you know the extension e=x^2/2L
so you can find de/dx

so just multiply W=S(kx^2/2L)dx by de/dx and you will get the work done in terms of dx which i got was W=S(kx^3/2L^2)dx

EDIT: it was meant to put so you can find de/dx, not dx/de just changed it now
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 13
Original post by physics4ever
no, in your integral it should be W=S(kx^2/2L)de where e is the extension of the string,not x,
then multipliy it by (dx/de)(de/dx) so
W=S(kx^2/2L)de times (dx/de)(de/dx), the de's cancel with de(dx/de)and you get
W=S(kx^2/2L)dx times (de/dx) but you know the extension e=x^2/2L
so you can find de/dx

so just multiply W=S(kx^2/2L)dx by de/dx and you will get the work done in terms of dx which i got was W=S(kx^3/2L^2)dx

EDIT: it was meant to put so you can find de/dx, not dx/de just changed it now

That gives the incorrect answer according to the solutions
You guys are making it more complicated than it needs to be,

The problem is about how much energy is stored in the spring when the end is moved horizontally a distance x.
So you want at the end the answer in terms of x.
That is, if I pull the spring end horizontally a distance x, I plug x into the formula to get the energy stored.

The energy stored depends on the extension of the spring δe, so you need first mathematically to find the extension in terms of x.
You then have δe in terms of δx

When you have that, mathematically, you integrate the formula with respect to x, as x is now the variable, not the extension.

The resulting formula gives you the energy stored as a function of x. Which is what you want.
There is no point in integrating wrt e as you don't know e. You only know the value of x, which e depends on.
Original post by KeyFingot
That gives the incorrect answer according to the solutions

the solutions arent always right, if they were right,then that would mean x is the extension which i dont think is right because e=x^2/2L is the extension so it should be W=Fde not W=Fdx,but you can rearange it to make it in terms of dx

i've had to go on TSR for help as my textbook has given the wrong solutions and answers a few times
Original post by physics4ever
shouldnt it be Fde?


No. See my other posts.
Reply 17
Original post by Stonebridge
You guys are making it more complicated than it needs to be,

The problem is about how much energy is stored in the spring when the end is moved horizontally a distance x.
So you want at the end the answer in terms of x.
That is, if I pull the spring end horizontally a distance x, I plug x into the formula to get the energy stored.

The energy stored depends on the extension of the spring δe, so you need first mathematically to find the extension in terms of x.
You then have δe in terms of δx

When you have that, mathematically, you integrate the formula with respect to x, as x is now the variable, not the extension.

The resulting formula gives you the energy stored as a function of x. Which is what you want.
There is no point in integrating wrt e as you don't know e. You only know the value of x, which e depends on.


I've definitely been guilty of that a lot. I think I'm starting to understand now, thanks :smile:
Original post by Stonebridge
You guys are making it more complicated than it needs to be,

The problem is about how much energy is stored in the spring when the end is moved horizontally a distance x.
So you want at the end the answer in terms of x.
That is, if I pull the spring end horizontally a distance x, I plug x into the formula to get the energy stored.

The energy stored depends on the extension of the spring δe, so you need first mathematically to find the extension in terms of x.
You then have δe in terms of δx

When you have that, mathematically, you integrate the formula with respect to x, as x is now the variable, not the extension.

The resulting formula gives you the energy stored as a function of x. Which is what you want.
There is no point in integrating wrt e as you don't know e. You only know the value of x, which e depends on.

if W=S(kx^2/2L)dx was right, than that would mean the integral of the force with respect to the horizontal distance(x) is the work done,which clearly is wrong, the work done is the integral of the force with respect to extension(e) and e=x^2/2L so it should be W=S(kx^2/2L)de, but you cant integrate a function with respect to e if the function is in terms of x so thats why you multiply by (dx/de)(de/dx)=1 so your just multplying by 1 so the integral doesnt change your just rearanging it so
W=S(kx^2/2L)(de/dx)(dx/de)de=S(kx^2/2L)(de/dx)dx the dx's would cancel out but you want it in terms of dx so you can just work out de/dx by using e=x^2/2L

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