Should we teach children about sexism/feminism?
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Original post by AWJChadders
Children do not need to be taught about that. Maths is more important
Original post by Ameliapond
@ Bold
what about male sexism? Or are we going to treat that as a non-issue?
what about male sexism? Or are we going to treat that as a non-issue?
You could teach it as part of the class on sexism. But it is much less prevalent and damaging in our society. Especially in the workplace.
Original post by AWJChadders
If we eliminate sexism against women, then sexism against men will also be eliminated
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
What makes you so sure?
What if radical feminists dominate the movement?
What if we tip the scales such that sexism against men becomes much more frequent?
What if positive discrimination becomes a normal practice just to make feminists happy?
Original post by techno-thriller
Children do not need to be taught about that. Maths is more important
You don't have to spend time teaching about sexism that would otherwise be spent teaching STEM subjects. You can incorporate it into existing lessons such as PHSE/Citizenship/Assembly/RE
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by JuiceInTheBox
You could teach it as part of the class on sexism. But it is much less prevalent and damaging in our society. Especially in the workplace.
What makes you think that sexism is prevalent ''Especially in the workplace''?.
I went on an internship to the Bank of England and their were plenty of males and females (about 60:40) split, and that's one of the most highest well renowned banks in the UK.
Women have being used to domestic roles before, so it is going to take some time to play the balancing act, there are usually always female representatives in each constituency. Teaching it to children won't change it, it may make them more informed but its a thing that will change overtime
Original post by techno-thriller
Children do not need to be taught about that. Maths is more important
You could also argue maths is more important than psychology or sociology or art or English lit. Does that mean we should stop teaching those subjects?
Original post by Ameliapond
What makes you so sure?
What if radical feminists dominate the movement?
What if we tip the scales such that sexism against men becomes much more frequent?
What if positive discrimination becomes a normal practice just to make feminists happy?
What if radical feminists dominate the movement?
What if we tip the scales such that sexism against men becomes much more frequent?
What if positive discrimination becomes a normal practice just to make feminists happy?
Well, if we break down stereotypes of what a a woman can and can't do, then many of the damaging stereotypes of men are the exact opposite, and will be broken down in tandem with stereotypes of men, ie as the stereotype that women are weak is broken down, the stereotype that men can't be victims of domestic violence is also broken down
Ok, about radical feminists- you've got a point, but just because some people are extremists doesn't mean that on the whole feminists have a valuable point.
This probably won't happen- advances are being made in men's rights in regard to child custody ect. alongside better rights for women.
I disagree wholly with positive discrimination, and I would imagine that many feminists would too (though I'm aware not all). If you take best person for the job irrespective of gender there is no sexism.
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Original post by JuiceInTheBox
You could also argue maths is more important than psychology or sociology or art or English lit. Does that mean we should stop teaching those subjects?
Depends what kind of person were talking about here, there's no point forcing Maths down an English students throat. But I would strongly agree that Maths is far more important that sociology and art in particular, and far more useful. There are too many artists and sociologists, not enough talented mathematicians
Original post by Ameliapond
What makes you think that sexism is prevalent ''Especially in the workplace''?.
I went on an internship to the Bank of England and their were plenty of males and females (about 60:40) split, and that's one of the most highest well renowned banks in the UK.
Women have being used to domestic roles before, so it is going to take some time to play the balancing act, there are usually always female representatives in each constituency. Teaching it to children won't change it, it may make them more informed but its a thing that will change overtime
I went on an internship to the Bank of England and their were plenty of males and females (about 60:40) split, and that's one of the most highest well renowned banks in the UK.
Women have being used to domestic roles before, so it is going to take some time to play the balancing act, there are usually always female representatives in each constituency. Teaching it to children won't change it, it may make them more informed but its a thing that will change overtime
A 60:40 split? In a country where women outnumber men? And sadly that sort of thing is far from uncommon. In most cases it's even more unequal.
Being more informed on the subject is hardly going to hinder children.
Original post by JuiceInTheBox
You could also argue maths is more important than psychology or sociology or art or English lit. Does that mean we should stop teaching those subjects?
I believe only maths and sciences should be taught, but let's not derail the thread
Original post by techno-thriller
I believe only maths and sciences should be taught, but let's not derail the thread
Start a new thread, could be an interesting discussion
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by JuiceInTheBox
A 60:40 split? In a country where women outnumber men? And sadly that sort of thing is far from uncommon. In most cases it's even more unequal.
Being more informed on the subject is hardly going to hinder children.
Being more informed on the subject is hardly going to hinder children.
Have you ever thought about this statement:
''It is more likely that Men will want to become Bankers than Women, probably because they enjoy it more''
Women aren't being prevented from entering the Banking industry clearly. The teaching profession is fine for women and maybe just maybe, preferences mean that certain workplaces are more dominated by men.
We already get taught this kind of thing in assemblies etc
Original post by Ameliapond
Depends what kind of person were talking about here, there's no point forcing Maths down an English students throat. But I would strongly agree that Maths is far more important that sociology and art in particular, and far more useful. There are too many artists and sociologists, not enough talented mathematicians
Please take into consideration that I am a language student who always truly despised Maths at school when I say this; Maths is far more useful (and hence, important) than English lit will ever be.
But this isn't really relevant to the thread.
Original post by Ameliapond
Have you ever thought about this statement:
''It is more likely that Men will want to become Bankers than Women, probably because they enjoy it more''
Women aren't being prevented from entering the Banking industry clearly. The teaching profession is fine for women and maybe just maybe, preferences mean that certain workplaces are more dominated by men.
We already get taught this kind of thing in assemblies etc
''It is more likely that Men will want to become Bankers than Women, probably because they enjoy it more''
Women aren't being prevented from entering the Banking industry clearly. The teaching profession is fine for women and maybe just maybe, preferences mean that certain workplaces are more dominated by men.
We already get taught this kind of thing in assemblies etc
So what you're saying essentially, is that men and women naturally have different preferences regarding profession?
May I ask why that would be?
Original post by JuiceInTheBox
So what you're saying essentially, is that men and women naturally have different preferences regarding profession?
May I ask why that would be?
May I ask why that would be?
Because... *drumroll*
Men and women are different.
Sorry if that upsets you.
I am a feminist, I learn a lot about feminism I talk about it a lot. However you will find a lot of feminists who fall into being sexist. Sexism is not a female only problem it also a problem for boys, although the implications are different and women as whole over many hundreds/thousands of years have been downtrodden more than men have. It should really be called gender equality - but it gains it name from the fact that it was woman who were the ones who had to push for it, obviously a majority of men didn't have a problem with the state of things.
I believe once you get to kids being teenagers most of the damage is done by the parents and environment. If Mum and Dad or whoever is raising them instill stereotypical qualities I.e Boys are tough, girls are gentle. Boys are technical, Girls are creative or whatever 'values' or 'traits' people assign as being male or female are taught by parents, then they go to school and friends only encourage it because their parents taught them the same - you have a problem. You can educate them about it make them aware and maybe they won't do the same thing with their kids.
There is a lot of social construction surrounding gender and their is huge social pressure to conform. As a very 'tomboyish' female I've often been told I must be a lesbian or be part man. Which not only is a discrimination against my gender but also against lesbians - who are not all 'tomboys'!
One of the most damaging things is the media, games, television. Little kids programs often start off with things like "boys only" and girls always wanting to be princesses. I have to say as person who has siblings 16 years my younger many of the young kids programs are doing OK at steering away from this. However once you get to the older schooling going age things start to change. My brothers are all homeschooled and my mum has never instilled any boys or girls do this or that but they still come out with things because of the tv shows they watch and my mum has to often sit them down and explain why the tv show or game is wrong.
The Lego Ninajo tv series or whatever it is called is seriously sexist - the ninjas always trying to get the hot babes at the end of the day, and the females are next to useless or portrayed as nagging fun stoppers from the episodes I have seen. Games are quite sexist, if people haven't already I would consider doing a youtube search for Anita Sariskeen and her Tropes vs Women videos. It shows you the level of over used plot devices are used with females more often than not the central plot device for rescue or for the heroes to take revenge for. It is quite alarming when you realise the scale.
Next you are faced with toys. Boys are encouraged to do construction... and girls a encouraged to dress dolls and such. Lego despite really meaning to be any kids toy is mostly advertised for boys, and what there is of girls orientated lego is disturbing... all purple and pastel colours and the girls are all hairdressers and bakers and pet shop owners. There has research been done showing boys develop better spacial awareness and technical skills because of construction toys, and girls miss out on this because they aren't bought construction toys. This isn't natural its because from day dot girls are given dollies and such and boys are given trucks.
Before about 1905, Blue was a girls colour and Pink was male! So that is just one social construction that has changed in the last 150 years.
Sally Ride, the youngest astronaut in space and first US female in space does a talk on Science being taught in US schools (Youtube Sally Ride Reach for the Stars) she talks about females being constantly told, both purposefully and accidentally that science and maths is not a girls subject, so when a girl gets average grades or bad grades often parents and even teachers will not worry about pushing them or tell them its ok you are a girl you aren't expected to do well in these subjects, to the point that when a girl is a maths or science genius they are made to seem 'special' or somehow abnormal from other girls.
So you have to reeducate a whole generation of parents, teachers and now current children and parents to be on the, fact that there is next to no difference to the way a male and female mind works and that it is all social constructed.
The scary things is to, there are studies showing that social experiences may have an effect on brain chemistry - so if a Dad or Mum tells their son is being nurturing or gentle is 'gay' or something else that may be seen as negative, that negative effect of his parents distaste for being nurturing and gentle will actually assign chemicals of feeling negative (as a result of memories) to being nurturing and gentle. Same with anything you might tell a female.
Here are some examples to ponder that I have experienced/seen in the last year:
I was getting stationary from Asda and it is in the same isle as the toys. A dad and his daughter came round the corner and there was a row of 2pound toys and the Dad said "You can have one of the two pound toys."
The girl, about six looked through the bins and then pulled out one of those kids tool sets with the big nuts and bolts and plastic spanner and giant plastic screwdriver with plastic bots of wood. "I want this Dad."
"You can't have that, it is a boys toy. Here is a doll or what about this horsey?"
"Dad I have lots of dolls and horseys I don't have any tools though!"
"You don't need tools You are a girl."
So basically it ended up in an argument, the girl getting upset because she didn't want another horsey she wanted to build something and the dad smacked her and took her out of the isle.
Well, cool, you can parent all you want but now that little girl has a chemical connection enforced by a negative situation to tools and boys toys.
I was in a toystore looking for a gift. There were two mothers pushing prams , and they had a kid 'each' as well as the babies in the prams. They were both boys one probably about 4 the other a bit older. Anyway they stood near where I was looking at things and said to them. "Now you can go get something you want but it is not allowed to be over ten pound." One of the mums told the older kid to help the younger kid.
Anyway they came back and the older boy had a truck and the younger boy had an 'boy' baby doll with blue clothing and bottles and stuff.
"Oh darling you can't have that it is a girls toy."
The little boy said : "I would like a baby doll."
The mums laughed, and she took him by the hand and led him to the boys isle. "We will find you another one."
Then she turns to the other woman and half to me and says "We wouldn't want him becoming gay."
Needless to say I was highly offended by this and wanted to say something because she was talking to me but I figured it was waste of my time and not my 'right'.
My partner who I have been with for 5 years is an example of what happens with this upbringing. He has been constantly told by parents and friends a like he must be gay or this or that. He has this whole thing about proving himself, and often tries to disguise it when he is being 'nice' or 'caring' etc around other men. He has grown out of it, but when I first started going out with him he had real issues around a group of other men especially older men like his dad.
I am a female - and I am aiming to go to university as an engineer. I was at dinner with my partner and his parents when the topic of conversation came up about further education and I said I was going to aim for university.
My partner's dad asked him "Why don't you go to university?" Pretty much implying he should go not me.
"I don't want to." my partner is a chef and hates it he wants to study history but obviously that doesn't make any money so he's going to wait and see if he can bludge off me later in life if I do get a higher paying job and so he can become a history teacher or something to that extent. He isn't sure yet, but we are supportive of what each other wants to do. "I will study later and maybe study while looking after our kids or something."
Well his Dad didn't like this one bit. "That is not a good enough goal son." then started a whole raft of negative comments as to why I shouldn't go to university.
I don't know if this can be taught to people outside of personal experiences and what parents have instilled. This isn't just a problem for sex either it is a huge problem for race to. Being a certain races defines your traits or abilities as 'blah'. These are all results and perceptions of social construction.
Religion really adds gasoline to the fire, youtube some of the more extreme christian evangelicals, to see why it is evil for a girl to get a higher education, and just look at some branches of Islam. I was homeschooled from age 9 prior to that I went to a strict christian school. At least 8 females out of my class are only 21, married with one or two kids - one has 4 because she got married at 17, and supporting their Christian family - and I am not saying it is wrong to be a stay at home mum or want that for yourself or your kids, but they often claim on facebook (to the point I've deleted most of them) career woman are failing God or whoever, and we should be pretty much subservient to our husbands.
I do think sexism and stereotypes should be taught, and shown how ridiculously material the ideas are, that they aren't true. What effect it will have? I hope it is a positive one and I do believe things are getting better - but we still have along way to go, and there is no way we are through the looking glass yet.
I believe once you get to kids being teenagers most of the damage is done by the parents and environment. If Mum and Dad or whoever is raising them instill stereotypical qualities I.e Boys are tough, girls are gentle. Boys are technical, Girls are creative or whatever 'values' or 'traits' people assign as being male or female are taught by parents, then they go to school and friends only encourage it because their parents taught them the same - you have a problem. You can educate them about it make them aware and maybe they won't do the same thing with their kids.
There is a lot of social construction surrounding gender and their is huge social pressure to conform. As a very 'tomboyish' female I've often been told I must be a lesbian or be part man. Which not only is a discrimination against my gender but also against lesbians - who are not all 'tomboys'!
One of the most damaging things is the media, games, television. Little kids programs often start off with things like "boys only" and girls always wanting to be princesses. I have to say as person who has siblings 16 years my younger many of the young kids programs are doing OK at steering away from this. However once you get to the older schooling going age things start to change. My brothers are all homeschooled and my mum has never instilled any boys or girls do this or that but they still come out with things because of the tv shows they watch and my mum has to often sit them down and explain why the tv show or game is wrong.
The Lego Ninajo tv series or whatever it is called is seriously sexist - the ninjas always trying to get the hot babes at the end of the day, and the females are next to useless or portrayed as nagging fun stoppers from the episodes I have seen. Games are quite sexist, if people haven't already I would consider doing a youtube search for Anita Sariskeen and her Tropes vs Women videos. It shows you the level of over used plot devices are used with females more often than not the central plot device for rescue or for the heroes to take revenge for. It is quite alarming when you realise the scale.
Next you are faced with toys. Boys are encouraged to do construction... and girls a encouraged to dress dolls and such. Lego despite really meaning to be any kids toy is mostly advertised for boys, and what there is of girls orientated lego is disturbing... all purple and pastel colours and the girls are all hairdressers and bakers and pet shop owners. There has research been done showing boys develop better spacial awareness and technical skills because of construction toys, and girls miss out on this because they aren't bought construction toys. This isn't natural its because from day dot girls are given dollies and such and boys are given trucks.
Before about 1905, Blue was a girls colour and Pink was male! So that is just one social construction that has changed in the last 150 years.
Sally Ride, the youngest astronaut in space and first US female in space does a talk on Science being taught in US schools (Youtube Sally Ride Reach for the Stars) she talks about females being constantly told, both purposefully and accidentally that science and maths is not a girls subject, so when a girl gets average grades or bad grades often parents and even teachers will not worry about pushing them or tell them its ok you are a girl you aren't expected to do well in these subjects, to the point that when a girl is a maths or science genius they are made to seem 'special' or somehow abnormal from other girls.
So you have to reeducate a whole generation of parents, teachers and now current children and parents to be on the, fact that there is next to no difference to the way a male and female mind works and that it is all social constructed.
The scary things is to, there are studies showing that social experiences may have an effect on brain chemistry - so if a Dad or Mum tells their son is being nurturing or gentle is 'gay' or something else that may be seen as negative, that negative effect of his parents distaste for being nurturing and gentle will actually assign chemicals of feeling negative (as a result of memories) to being nurturing and gentle. Same with anything you might tell a female.
Here are some examples to ponder that I have experienced/seen in the last year:
I was getting stationary from Asda and it is in the same isle as the toys. A dad and his daughter came round the corner and there was a row of 2pound toys and the Dad said "You can have one of the two pound toys."
The girl, about six looked through the bins and then pulled out one of those kids tool sets with the big nuts and bolts and plastic spanner and giant plastic screwdriver with plastic bots of wood. "I want this Dad."
"You can't have that, it is a boys toy. Here is a doll or what about this horsey?"
"Dad I have lots of dolls and horseys I don't have any tools though!"
"You don't need tools You are a girl."
So basically it ended up in an argument, the girl getting upset because she didn't want another horsey she wanted to build something and the dad smacked her and took her out of the isle.
Well, cool, you can parent all you want but now that little girl has a chemical connection enforced by a negative situation to tools and boys toys.
I was in a toystore looking for a gift. There were two mothers pushing prams , and they had a kid 'each' as well as the babies in the prams. They were both boys one probably about 4 the other a bit older. Anyway they stood near where I was looking at things and said to them. "Now you can go get something you want but it is not allowed to be over ten pound." One of the mums told the older kid to help the younger kid.
Anyway they came back and the older boy had a truck and the younger boy had an 'boy' baby doll with blue clothing and bottles and stuff.
"Oh darling you can't have that it is a girls toy."
The little boy said : "I would like a baby doll."
The mums laughed, and she took him by the hand and led him to the boys isle. "We will find you another one."
Then she turns to the other woman and half to me and says "We wouldn't want him becoming gay."
Needless to say I was highly offended by this and wanted to say something because she was talking to me but I figured it was waste of my time and not my 'right'.
My partner who I have been with for 5 years is an example of what happens with this upbringing. He has been constantly told by parents and friends a like he must be gay or this or that. He has this whole thing about proving himself, and often tries to disguise it when he is being 'nice' or 'caring' etc around other men. He has grown out of it, but when I first started going out with him he had real issues around a group of other men especially older men like his dad.
I am a female - and I am aiming to go to university as an engineer. I was at dinner with my partner and his parents when the topic of conversation came up about further education and I said I was going to aim for university.
My partner's dad asked him "Why don't you go to university?" Pretty much implying he should go not me.
"I don't want to." my partner is a chef and hates it he wants to study history but obviously that doesn't make any money so he's going to wait and see if he can bludge off me later in life if I do get a higher paying job and so he can become a history teacher or something to that extent. He isn't sure yet, but we are supportive of what each other wants to do. "I will study later and maybe study while looking after our kids or something."
Well his Dad didn't like this one bit. "That is not a good enough goal son." then started a whole raft of negative comments as to why I shouldn't go to university.
I don't know if this can be taught to people outside of personal experiences and what parents have instilled. This isn't just a problem for sex either it is a huge problem for race to. Being a certain races defines your traits or abilities as 'blah'. These are all results and perceptions of social construction.
Religion really adds gasoline to the fire, youtube some of the more extreme christian evangelicals, to see why it is evil for a girl to get a higher education, and just look at some branches of Islam. I was homeschooled from age 9 prior to that I went to a strict christian school. At least 8 females out of my class are only 21, married with one or two kids - one has 4 because she got married at 17, and supporting their Christian family - and I am not saying it is wrong to be a stay at home mum or want that for yourself or your kids, but they often claim on facebook (to the point I've deleted most of them) career woman are failing God or whoever, and we should be pretty much subservient to our husbands.
I do think sexism and stereotypes should be taught, and shown how ridiculously material the ideas are, that they aren't true. What effect it will have? I hope it is a positive one and I do believe things are getting better - but we still have along way to go, and there is no way we are through the looking glass yet.
Original post by A Perfect Circle
Because... *drumroll*
Men and women are different.
Sorry if that upsets you.
Men and women are different.
Sorry if that upsets you.
Physically, yes.
But I'm not sure why that would affect a possible career in banking.
Original post by A Perfect Circle
Because... *drumroll*
Men and women are different.
Sorry if that upsets you.
Men and women are different.
Sorry if that upsets you.
Sorry that is Boys and Girls are "raised' differently therefore they do become different. Purely through a social stereotype. A girl and boy when they are born are equally likely to be bankers before they are influenced mentally.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by JuiceInTheBox
So what you're saying essentially, is that men and women naturally have different preferences regarding profession?
May I ask why that would be?
May I ask why that would be?
what perfect circle said
blanket generalisation here but men tend to prefer:
manual work, fields in science, banking etc
women tend to prefer:
teaching, care, literature, English, languages etc
These are not strict guidelines though, women are free to apply to various banks for jobs that males have. There is no sexism in the workplace (in that respect)
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by IlexBlue
The problem with sexism at its crux.
"Don't tell the guys straightforwardly or they'll get offended and pissed off."
The problem with sexism at its crux."Don't tell the guys straightforwardly or they'll get offended and pissed off."
The problem with feminism at its crux."Don't dare suggest guys are under-supported or the feminists will get offended and pissed off"
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