Why does the UK only have the 6th best education system in the world
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Original post by Dylann
Yes someone agrees! People shouldn't be criticising Gove's ideas, but rather his plans. He needs to improve education. Not change education completely.
Yes. His ideas are sound, because his ideas are made up of what people have been saying for the past 10-30 years. Standards are slipping, we need English/Maths/Science in tip top shape, we need more emphasis on vocational training, we need more awareness of British history and British identity, etc etc. However the man hasn't got a clue whatsoever, he's just trying to change things for the sake of change (which considering he's a Conservative, is rather ironic) and throwing all evidence/consultation/advice from external sources (y'know, what you'd hope a government minister would listen to when he attempts to change an entire education system) out of the window. He's simply going to replace Thatcher/Major/New Labour's education system with a broken one of his own. But it's all for the history books right. As long as he's remembered forever in history as the guy who tried to impose 1950s public school education on a 21st century state.
Original post by cactussed
Hell of an overstatement there.
Hell of an overstatement there.
You're right. On reflection, Singapore is a liberal paradise.
Singapore is like TSR. The answer to everything is usually a ban. Don't like chewing gum? Ban it. Don't like electronic cigarettes? Ban them. Don't like pornography? Ban it. Don't like oral sex? Ban it.
They have also had government eugenics policies in and out of place for decades - with cash bonuses for graduates who married and had children, and policies of discouraging children for poor or less-educated people, often by racial stereotyping.
I think a few years ago they would give cash bonuses to women of low-education who agreed to undergo sterilisation.
In Britain we waste time on less useful subjects (in the wider world) such as (do not be offended) Religious Education, Citizenship, Art, etc. We don't put enough time into more useful subjects i.e. Maths, the sciences, languages, English grammar (seriously, I've heard foreigners speak better English than some of the chavs out of our comprehensives). Also, there isn't enough focus on vocational and practical skills e.g. woodwork and metalwork.
Original post by The_Dragonborn
In Britain we waste time on less useful subjects (in the wider world) such as (do not be offended) Religious Education, Citizenship, Art, etc. We don't put enough time into more useful subjects i.e. Maths, the sciences, languages, English grammar (seriously, I've heard foreigners speak better English than some of the chavs out of our comprehensives). Also, there isn't enough focus on vocational and practical skills e.g. woodwork and metalwork.
That's more down to crap schools than the system generally.
Original post by Clip
You're right. On reflection, Singapore is a liberal paradise.
Singapore is like TSR. The answer to everything is usually a ban. Don't like chewing gum? Ban it. Don't like electronic cigarettes? Ban them. Don't like pornography? Ban it. Don't like oral sex? Ban it.
They have also had government eugenics policies in and out of place for decades - with cash bonuses for graduates who married and had children, and policies of discouraging children for poor or less-educated people, often by racial stereotyping.
I think a few years ago they would give cash bonuses to women of low-education who agreed to undergo sterilisation.
Singapore is like TSR. The answer to everything is usually a ban. Don't like chewing gum? Ban it. Don't like electronic cigarettes? Ban them. Don't like pornography? Ban it. Don't like oral sex? Ban it.
They have also had government eugenics policies in and out of place for decades - with cash bonuses for graduates who married and had children, and policies of discouraging children for poor or less-educated people, often by racial stereotyping.
I think a few years ago they would give cash bonuses to women of low-education who agreed to undergo sterilisation.
And look at the utopia they've created. Why, they're top of international leaderboards!
Ah, also: mixed ability sets. Now, there are lots of people who (passionately) believe that they are a good thing, but in my experience they don't do the slightest bit of good. The concept is that lower ability students will be "inspired" by higher ability students and will be driven to do better, but what actually happens in the lower ability students can't grasp the theory in the lesson and it uses up the higher ability student's time to explain it. The whole class is held back in this way.
Original post by ineedtorevise127
behind
Finland
South Korea
Hong Kong
Japan
Singapore
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20498356
Do you think more changes are required to improve education overall? If so what changes do you think are needed to ensure the UK comes in the top 3/4
Finland
South Korea
Hong Kong
Japan
Singapore
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20498356
Do you think more changes are required to improve education overall? If so what changes do you think are needed to ensure the UK comes in the top 3/4
The Asian countries have a completely different attitude to education, they have an attitude that will not accept second best.
Finland has extensive streaming and sets (a grammar school system without the test). Singapore has an educational voucher system which given the standard of UK private schools would most likely see us rise.
At any rate we should be pleased, that seems to indicate that we have the second best education in Europe.
Original post by Dylann
Finland have no school uniform. No league tables. No private schools. That's why they're no.1.
We should eliminate private schoolsand league tables. We need much tougher GCSEs and year 6 SATs. Gove has the right idea but his methods to accomplish it are beyond ridiculous.
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We should eliminate private schools
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As an average private schools in the UK are outstandingly world class and that's coming from somebody who never went to one. To abolish them would significantly weaken our education system not to mention result in a net loss of teachers as some are unqualified and most would be unwilling to accept the significant pay cut that comes in working for the state.
Let's allow the best and brightest access to this world class system via an educational voucher system.
Original post by The_Dragonborn
In Britain we waste time on less useful subjects (in the wider world) such as (do not be offended) Religious Education, Citizenship, Art, etc. We don't put enough time into more useful subjects i.e. Maths, the sciences, languages, English grammar (seriously, I've heard foreigners speak better English than some of the chavs out of our comprehensives). Also, there isn't enough focus on vocational and practical skills e.g. woodwork and metalwork.
Can't focus on everything - by definition.
The way it used to work was that there would be the 11+ and the smart people got to go to grammar school. The dumb ones had to do CSEs and spent a lot of time "focusing" on woodwork and metalwork - the people at grammar school probably didn't as they were destined for three years all paid up at university.
There were O-levels which were pretty tough, and most people failed most of them. If you passed 5, you were supposed to be fairly smart. If you then went on get CCC in your A-levels, you were off to UCL.
Apparently, this was a very unfair system - where the best people did the tough academic subjects and went on to do them at university. The dumb people did vocational subjects at school and college, and the people in the middle mooched about doing soft arts or technical HNDs at Polytechnic.
Bring this back, and the critics will call it educational apartheid.
Original post by Dylann
Finland have no school uniform. No league tables. No private schools. That's why they're no.1.
We should eliminate private schoolsand league tables. We need much tougher GCSEs and year 6 SATs. Gove has the right idea but his methods to accomplish it are beyond ridiculous.
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We should eliminate private schools
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That will take us to like 50th on the list.
Original post by Clip
Can't focus on everything - by definition.
The way it used to work was that there would be the 11+ and the smart people got to go to grammar school. The dumb ones had to do CSEs and spent a lot of time "focusing" on woodwork and metalwork - the people at grammar school probably didn't as they were destined for three years all paid up at university.
There were O-levels which were pretty tough, and most people failed most of them. If you passed 5, you were supposed to be fairly smart. If you then went on get CCC in your A-levels, you were off to UCL.
Apparently, this was a very unfair system - where the best people did the tough academic subjects and went on to do them at university. The dumb people did vocational subjects at school and college, and the people in the middle mooched about doing soft arts or technical HNDs at Polytechnic.
Bring this back, and the critics will call it educational apartheid.
The way it used to work was that there would be the 11+ and the smart people got to go to grammar school. The dumb ones had to do CSEs and spent a lot of time "focusing" on woodwork and metalwork - the people at grammar school probably didn't as they were destined for three years all paid up at university.
There were O-levels which were pretty tough, and most people failed most of them. If you passed 5, you were supposed to be fairly smart. If you then went on get CCC in your A-levels, you were off to UCL.
Apparently, this was a very unfair system - where the best people did the tough academic subjects and went on to do them at university. The dumb people did vocational subjects at school and college, and the people in the middle mooched about doing soft arts or technical HNDs at Polytechnic.
Bring this back, and the critics will call it educational apartheid.
That's the best advice for the British education system I've ever heard
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Tuya
:crying2:
That's the best advice for the British education system I've ever heard
That's the best advice for the British education system I've ever heard
Unfortunately we don't have a time machine.
How does Finland do it? Naturally gifted?
The Asian countries I understand as they work extremely hard (well deserved)
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The Asian countries I understand as they work extremely hard (well deserved)
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Original post by Dylann
Finland have no school uniform. No league tables. No private schools. That's why they're no.1.
We should eliminate private schoolsand league tables. We need much tougher GCSEs and year 6 SATs. Gove has the right idea but his methods to accomplish it are beyond ridiculous.
Posted from TSR Mobile
We should eliminate private schools
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They also have nearly twice the education budget per capita of the UK.
Original post by Clip
Can't focus on everything - by definition.
The way it used to work was that there would be the 11+ and the smart people got to go to grammar school. The dumb ones had to do CSEs and spent a lot of time "focusing" on woodwork and metalwork - the people at grammar school probably didn't as they were destined for three years all paid up at university.
There were O-levels which were pretty tough, and most people failed most of them. If you passed 5, you were supposed to be fairly smart. If you then went on get CCC in your A-levels, you were off to UCL.
Apparently, this was a very unfair system - where the best people did the tough academic subjects and went on to do them at university. The dumb people did vocational subjects at school and college, and the people in the middle mooched about doing soft arts or technical HNDs at Polytechnic.
Bring this back, and the critics will call it educational apartheid.
The way it used to work was that there would be the 11+ and the smart people got to go to grammar school. The dumb ones had to do CSEs and spent a lot of time "focusing" on woodwork and metalwork - the people at grammar school probably didn't as they were destined for three years all paid up at university.
There were O-levels which were pretty tough, and most people failed most of them. If you passed 5, you were supposed to be fairly smart. If you then went on get CCC in your A-levels, you were off to UCL.
Apparently, this was a very unfair system - where the best people did the tough academic subjects and went on to do them at university. The dumb people did vocational subjects at school and college, and the people in the middle mooched about doing soft arts or technical HNDs at Polytechnic.
Bring this back, and the critics will call it educational apartheid.
I do like the idea of this. Although I think streaming in schools would be good too; judging someone's academic ability at the age of 11 is a bit unfair as some people develop intellectually a lot later. So grouping all the middle and dumb students together and not giving them a chance to develop is a bit unfair.
I can say this from my personal experience. I wasn't exactly that bright at 11, I had failed my 11+.
However over the years I became more intelligent and was put into top sets.
Original post by Malevolent
haha Singapore. Parents there are ****ing nutters.
why?
Original post by Clip
Can't focus on everything - by definition.
The way it used to work was that there would be the 11+ and the smart people got to go to grammar school. The dumb ones had to do CSEs and spent a lot of time "focusing" on woodwork and metalwork - the people at grammar school probably didn't as they were destined for three years all paid up at university.
There were O-levels which were pretty tough, and most people failed most of them. If you passed 5, you were supposed to be fairly smart. If you then went on get CCC in your A-levels, you were off to UCL.
Apparently, this was a very unfair system - where the best people did the tough academic subjects and went on to do them at university. The dumb people did vocational subjects at school and college, and the people in the middle mooched about doing soft arts or technical HNDs at Polytechnic.
Bring this back, and the critics will call it educational apartheid.
The way it used to work was that there would be the 11+ and the smart people got to go to grammar school. The dumb ones had to do CSEs and spent a lot of time "focusing" on woodwork and metalwork - the people at grammar school probably didn't as they were destined for three years all paid up at university.
There were O-levels which were pretty tough, and most people failed most of them. If you passed 5, you were supposed to be fairly smart. If you then went on get CCC in your A-levels, you were off to UCL.
Apparently, this was a very unfair system - where the best people did the tough academic subjects and went on to do them at university. The dumb people did vocational subjects at school and college, and the people in the middle mooched about doing soft arts or technical HNDs at Polytechnic.
Bring this back, and the critics will call it educational apartheid.
Not everyone lives near a grammar school though? So this would leave some smart children stuck in the 'technical schools'.
Original post by Alfissti
As a soon to be ex-Singapore citizen, I can see why Singapore ranks highly in the league tables, it is generally a Chinese society and one of the core believes of the community is education and the tradition for education goes for as far back to the era in which Chinese migrants first settled in Singapore. Parents pushing their kids? This isn't as widespread any longer, many do treasure their brats but it is the school that pressures the kids as teachers and principles are rewarded based upon the results of the students in their school and classroom. Class discipline is also rather stringent, disrupt a class and out you go.... no questions asked no excuses entertained.
Many often ask why is Finland number 1, usually everyone will say it is to do with funding or rather the high levels of funding. This actually isn't that true, in truth UK spends more, has more schooling years and longer school days. The reason for it's excellence boils down to who they hire as teachers, to be a teacher in Finland you do need to be in the top of your class, it also takes some dedication to become a teacher as the training is quite rigorous and there are no shortage of people wanting to be teachers for the sole reason that it is actually a very high paying job. Now compare that to UK, teacher salaries are peanuts by comparison, the kinds that become teachers in state schools generally become teachers because that's the only place that would hire them.
There is also a bit on the parenting issue, remember Finland as a whole is a fairly wealthy country and it generally has very little economic inequality and parents generally tend to be better educated themselves and do place high importance on education and therefore they do make an effort to ensure their kids are doing well in school. Sadly many middle-class parents in UK don't do this and have come to the point that their brats can't do anything wrong, doing badly in school? Yeah it's the teacher's fault. Not developing the skills needed for their grade, it's their classmates' fault for being better.
Many often ask why is Finland number 1, usually everyone will say it is to do with funding or rather the high levels of funding. This actually isn't that true, in truth UK spends more, has more schooling years and longer school days. The reason for it's excellence boils down to who they hire as teachers, to be a teacher in Finland you do need to be in the top of your class, it also takes some dedication to become a teacher as the training is quite rigorous and there are no shortage of people wanting to be teachers for the sole reason that it is actually a very high paying job. Now compare that to UK, teacher salaries are peanuts by comparison, the kinds that become teachers in state schools generally become teachers because that's the only place that would hire them.
There is also a bit on the parenting issue, remember Finland as a whole is a fairly wealthy country and it generally has very little economic inequality and parents generally tend to be better educated themselves and do place high importance on education and therefore they do make an effort to ensure their kids are doing well in school. Sadly many middle-class parents in UK don't do this and have come to the point that their brats can't do anything wrong, doing badly in school? Yeah it's the teacher's fault. Not developing the skills needed for their grade, it's their classmates' fault for being better.
i'd just like to add that in basically all the other countries in the top 5, teaching is a very high paying and respected profession, only the best are teachers - just like in Finland
Original post by contradicta
#
Not everyone lives near a grammar school though? So this would leave some smart children stuck in the 'technical schools'.
Not everyone lives near a grammar school though? So this would leave some smart children stuck in the 'technical schools'.
I'm not making a suggestion. I was giving a history lesson.
The reason it doesn't work now is because there aren't enough grammar schools to go around and you generally have to score very very highly on the 11+ to get into the few schools that there are.
Why does a ranking system from Pearson Education, a publishing company, determine who is best in the world?
If a football publishing company devises a ranking system for football countries based on who has best stadiums, most TV coverage, worldwide support of its clubs etc and England comes top does that mean Brazil will have some hard questions to answer about why they can't compete with us at football....?
If a football publishing company devises a ranking system for football countries based on who has best stadiums, most TV coverage, worldwide support of its clubs etc and England comes top does that mean Brazil will have some hard questions to answer about why they can't compete with us at football....?
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Clip
Can't focus on everything - by definition.
The way it used to work was that there would be the 11+ and the smart people got to go to grammar school. The dumb ones had to do CSEs and spent a lot of time "focusing" on woodwork and metalwork - the people at grammar school probably didn't as they were destined for three years all paid up at university.
There were O-levels which were pretty tough, and most people failed most of them. If you passed 5, you were supposed to be fairly smart. If you then went on get CCC in your A-levels, you were off to UCL.
Apparently, this was a very unfair system - where the best people did the tough academic subjects and went on to do them at university. The dumb people did vocational subjects at school and college, and the people in the middle mooched about doing soft arts or technical HNDs at Polytechnic.
Bring this back, and the critics will call it educational apartheid.
The way it used to work was that there would be the 11+ and the smart people got to go to grammar school. The dumb ones had to do CSEs and spent a lot of time "focusing" on woodwork and metalwork - the people at grammar school probably didn't as they were destined for three years all paid up at university.
There were O-levels which were pretty tough, and most people failed most of them. If you passed 5, you were supposed to be fairly smart. If you then went on get CCC in your A-levels, you were off to UCL.
Apparently, this was a very unfair system - where the best people did the tough academic subjects and went on to do them at university. The dumb people did vocational subjects at school and college, and the people in the middle mooched about doing soft arts or technical HNDs at Polytechnic.
Bring this back, and the critics will call it educational apartheid.
What happened if a normally smart/academically minded kid had a bad day on the day of the exam though?
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